[Guardian] - MoP Tanking Guide (5.4)

90 Tauren Druid
13245
i keep waiting to see a post that says

"Yes Oakbind of course u should be stacking STAM & Crit... big health pool and 100% up time on the uber dodge Savage D"

i mean thats all i want to see lol
dont know why but it just seems intuitively that this should be right, the complete absence of posts saying this makes me think I am wrong tho
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90 Night Elf Druid
11265
@Arielle - I know you typically do high-end raiding, but I'm looking for advice on heroics. Specifically, trash packs. I follow the "rotation" for AoE'ing (mangle, lac, thrash) but at the start of the pull, I don't have enough rage to hit SD (unless I hit enrage). I also feel like I'm not really generating enough rage through-out the pull, so I feel squishy (and am squishy).

I've picked up SotF to help and have since dropped Fae Silence (which was nice for picking up ranged casters in instances). What else can I do differently?

What's worse is that this is stuff I didn't have issues with before the patch. It's making the game completely unfun for me and making me seriously consider dropping tanking.
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
09/04/2012 01:16 PMPosted by Phaedra
I've picked up SotF to help and have since dropped Fae Silence (which was nice for picking up ranged casters in instances). What else can I do differently?

SotF is a good choice if you feel you're lacking the sustained Rage generation. You can keep Fae Silence since Thrash will also reset Mangle (and actually has a better chance to the more targets it hits).

Part of the problem you're going to experience is that all of the mobs in Cataclysm are balanced around having a 20% attack speed slow up 100% of the time. So you're inherently going to take a lot more melee swings, not to mention a lot more damage from those swings.

Liberal use of Enrage and Barkskin should help. Liberal use of CC (Roots/Hibernate) is possible as well.
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90 Tauren Druid
11045
Nice to see the changes incoming according to the Class BBalance thread part2

75% increased rage gen from melee auto attacks (approx 10.8 rage per attack)

+12% damage reduction from Thick Hide

great changes and should smooth out some of those spikes
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90 Tauren Druid
11070
i keep waiting to see a post that says

"Yes Oakbind of course u should be stacking STAM & Crit... big health pool and 100% up time on the uber dodge Savage D"

i mean thats all i want to see lol
dont know why but it just seems intuitively that this should be right, the complete absence of posts saying this makes me think I am wrong tho


Yes Oakbind of course you should be stacking STAM & Crit...big healthpool and 100% up time on the uber dodge savage D

well, maybe not 100% but at least for a 42 second window if you can keep your rage up. and then it becomes 6 on 3 off.

I do the same but I rather get my hit and exp cap first. and THEN CRIT!



have to remember to use NS before you use HT while tanking.

although of course we would never - ever - ever make that mistake

<Wisp hits HT .. pops into caster .. Zonazz hits .. Wisp goes*splat* .. >


make a macro, press it twice. or just spam it for heals. you'll never go splat again

#showtooltip
/castsequence [stance:1] reset=15 Nature's Swiftness, Healing Touch ; [stance:3] Rip ; Remove Corruption
Edited by Thornykitty on 9/9/2012 10:11 PM PDT
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98 Night Elf Druid
8980
Can you write one for PvP please? I prefer bear in pvp for its inherent survival ability.
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
09/08/2012 01:35 PMPosted by Aquilaforte
Can you write one for PvP please? I prefer bear in pvp for its inherent survival ability.

Don't PvP as Guardian. You'll thank me.
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90 Tauren Druid
11070
09/08/2012 01:35 PMPosted by Aquilaforte
Can you write one for PvP please? I prefer bear in pvp for its inherent survival ability.


the "inherent" survival ability is gone for pvp.

no more passive 18% dmg reduction from all sources. dodge without SD is laughable and even with SD up you're dead if you get stunned. Rage buildup is too painfully long to be useful. and you get no dmg output without SR. stick to kitty cat. no SD but thats a small price to pay. you still get SI and all the goodies. Predatory swiftness heals > bear frenzy...you'll want to be in cat form for pvp.
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85 Worgen Druid
9280
Extremely useful guide. I'm facing off against Heroic Spine tomorrow on my loldruidalt... I honestly had no clue that Disorienting Roar and Typhoon worked against the bloods until I read this. (I imagine the knockback doesn't, but the daze does.)
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
09/10/2012 12:03 AMPosted by Fairytail
Extremely useful guide. I'm facing off against Heroic Spine tomorrow on my loldruidalt... I honestly had no clue that Disorienting Roar and Typhoon worked against the bloods until I read this. (I imagine the knockback doesn't, but the daze does.)

I haven't been able to confirm whether this is true or not, and I've never had much reason to. I can simply kill them faster than they spawn.
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100 Tauren Druid
19150
Someone's reccomending stam gems for 5.0

Has anyone tried this yet?
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
Someone's reccomending stam gems for 5.0 Has anyone tried this yet?

No point in current content unless you're doing 0% DS.

Stam/Mastery will probably be the most common combination for Heroic level raiding simply because of the amount of breathing room you give your healers. You don't end up being at 100% HP very often.

For anything other than Heroic raiding (and possibly Challenge modes) people will probably go Mastery or Dodge.
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90 Tauren Druid
10090
Someone's reccomending stam gems for 5.0

Has anyone tried this yet?


Never really been a fan of Stam stacking. Not like it makes you take any less damage, it just gives you a bigger Health pool which means just that much more health for a healer to heal. Basically turns you into a big mana sponge. You actually take more damage overall when stacking Stam as opposed to Agi/Mastery/Dodge stacking, unless it's a magic heavy fight. For alot of those, just Stam Trinkets will do.
Edited by Rionel on 9/14/2012 11:49 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Druid
11070
Someone's reccomending stam gems for 5.0

Has anyone tried this yet?


I am and has always been stam stacking since I made this feral in 4.0.x. It has always been viable before patch, and after the patch it is still doing good. although, I feel squishier compare to before the patch but I think all guardians are feeling that though. At first I almost got tricked into hard swapping for agi after looking at my dodge falling to like 20%. And then I realized that agi tanks fell too.

For losing all those EH from the patch(no more passive 18% DR and alot of hp bonuses lost), I get alot more self heal and dodge utility in its place. T13 4 set kinda suck now =/ My only problem now though is that off the bat threat compared to other tanks, I really have to try or I'd lose agro before I get hit for vengence. nothing a berzerk can't solve though.



Never really been a fan of Stam stacking. Not like it makes you take any less damage, it just gives you a bigger Health pool which means just that much more health for a healer to heal. Basically turns you into a big mana sponge. You actually take more damage overall when stacking Stam as opposed to Agi/Mastery/Dodge stacking, unless it's a magic heavy fight. For alot of those, just Stam Trinkets will do.


On the contrary, to a healer, the nature of an agility tank's health pool is more spikey and relatively higher maintenance, while a stam tank's health pool is more predictable and relatively easier to manage. It is arguable that stam bears are the better choice for progression because their health pool cushions mechanics.

For a while now, nearly every new raid blizz comes up with has bosses with SOME mechanic that will totally annihilate your health no matter what you stack. Lich King had Soul Reaper, Cho'gall has Flame's Orders, Chimaeron has double attack, Shannox has frenzy, etc. Dragonsoul is no exception. Nearly every boss in there has a hard hitting phase or hard hitting mechanic.

If your health pool is low, hard hitting mechanics cause stress on healers even if you dodge more and take less dmg overall. each hit you take still hit you for the same amount. but the result is that it drops you to a lower % if you have less health to begin with. when healers sees this, it puts pressure into their spell priorities. They are forced to use quicker and less mana efficient spells such as flash heal to quickly bring you out of the danger zone before you take your next hit. Some times more than 1 healer may be pressured into casting heals on you and end up doing over healing, spending their precious mana for absolutely nothing.

Comparatively, the stam tank taking that same hit can be topped up using slow but more mana efficient heals because the healer are not worrying about them taking an extra 1 or 2 hits.They may not be 100% very often at all, but they are also less likely to receive over healing. Overall, healing they receive is may be more. but the mana costed in keeping them alive may be less. Hardly a mana sponge.

Besides, don't think of stam tanks as they can't dodge at all. Stam bears still reforge for dodge. Even before the patch I still had about 40% dodge in combat. agi tanks with similar gear may get 45%. the difference in hits avoided isn't too dramatic. Now in combat I get about 65% with savage defense. Agi bears still have about 5% over that, but I have 60k hp over agi bears raid buffed. That's alot of breathing room to compensate for weak geared healer or performance errors. I havn't had a healer yet, since I made this bear, tell me that I'm hard to heal.

Metaphorically, healing a stam bear is like driving a luxury car - lots of cushioning, soft and nice to ride, but not very interesting to drive. Healing an agi bear is like driving a sports car - agile, eager, responsive, but stiff. need a kidney belt and lots of attention.
Edited by Thornykitty on 9/14/2012 7:33 PM PDT
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90 Tauren Druid
10090

On the contrary, to a healer, the nature of an agility tank's health pool is more spikey and relatively higher maintenance, while a stam tank's health pool is more predictable and relatively easier to manage.


Yeah, a Stam Tank's health pool is more predictable, in the fact that they consistently take more damage than a Agi Tank, thus requiring more healing overall.
The reason why Tanks in WotLK stacked the hell out of Stam, was because healers basically had infinite mana. They could spam their biggest heals non stop without breaking a sweat.
The reason why Tanks switched to Avoidance/Mitigation in Cat, is because healers no longer have infinite mana. Every bit of damage you can avoid/mitigate, is making it easier on your healer's mana pool.
Stam only provides us with Health, and that's it. While Agi provides us with AP, Crit and Dodge. AP increases our DPS/Threat output, as well as the heal from FR. Crit not only increases our DPS/Threat output, but also increases our survivability by granting us extra Rage for SD/FR and % Heals on Crit. Dodge allows us to completely avoid a physical attack, sparing us damage that would otherwise cost a healer mana. Not to mention Agi directly boosts our Spellpower, which will be useful at 90 once we get Heart of the Wild and can cast Rejuvenation in Bear Form.
For the vast majority of hard hitting mechanics, simply switching to a pair of Stam Trinkets adds the extra cushion needed to survive. No need to gem +60 Stam in every socket.
Edited by Rionel on 9/15/2012 8:46 PM PDT
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90 Tauren Druid
11070


Yeah, a Stam Tank's health pool is more predictable, in the fact that they consistently take more damage than a Agi Tank, thus requiring more healing overall.
The reason why Tanks in WotLK stacked the hell out of Stam, was because healers basically had infinite mana. They could spam their biggest heals non stop without breaking a sweat.
The reason why Tanks switched to Avoidance/Mitigation in Cat, is because healers no longer have infinite mana. Every bit of damage you can avoid/mitigate, is making it easier on your healer's mana pool.
Stam only provides us with Health, and that's it. While Agi provides us with AP, Crit and Dodge. AP increases our DPS/Threat output, as well as the heal from FR. Crit not only increases our DPS/Threat output, but also increases our survivability by granting us extra Rage for SD/FR and % Heals on Crit. Dodge allows us to completely avoid a physical attack, sparing us damage that would otherwise cost a healer mana. Not to mention Agi directly boosts our Spellpower, which will be useful at 90 once we get Heart of the Wild and can cast Rejuvenation in Bear Form.
For the vast majority of hard hitting mechanics, simply switching to a pair of Stam Trinkets adds the extra cushion needed to survive. No need to gem +60 Stam in every socket.


I do hope you're not just reading the opener of my comment and then forgetting about the rest. Keep in mind that there are still do this date bears of both preference and they both work. For the record, I'm not saying agi stacking will not work, I'm just defending the stam stacking methods from prejudice arguments. A stam bear is by no means a "mana sponge". Try it before you bash it.

I stand by my argument that agi bears has the potential to costs the healer more mana over time in many fights. comparatively their hp dips to a lower % for every hit they end up taking. Stacking agi doesn't make you the dodge master. Very often, you still take 2 hits in a row no matter how much dodge you have. And its for those momments that a healer's mana really suffers because they are forced to spam inefficient heals and do over healing.

it looks like you agree that there are fights where an agi bear's health pool is just insufficient. Sure, you can swap trinkets and become a hybrid bear, but thats just an adaptation for the short commings of an agi tank. swapping out the trinkets drops your agi by alot, and arguably makes you into more of a stam bear.

putting aside that you'd have to keep around extra trinkets to swap between fights, the desirability from the amount of crit and dodge you gain is also debatable. The easier stat to compare is dodge. you gain ~5% for stacking agi. so you can directly decide if its worth it for you in terms of dodge. the tricky one to see is crit. You gain about 10% fro stacking agi, but crit no longer directly affect your survivability. Tank dmg doesn't make significant impact on raiding for me to really care about the extra dps you might gain from the crit. So rage is the only point of interest here. From experience, I can assure you I run into no rage problems with my current stam setup. I can pretty much keep my SD on solid for 30 seconds+, and when I'm not actively tanking I can keep up 100 rage even while spamming maul on CD. if for w/e reason you need more rage than the world, just pop incarnation or zerk.

About FR, Agi amount is irrelevant to how much it heals. it scales directly off of atk pwr gained from ONLY vengence. while for each point of stam, you convert 2.5 extra hp per rage. and stam bears get more vengence(stam bears take more damge per second over the 20 sec timeframe). again, I'm only agreeing that they take more dps, damage taken is still consistent and predictable. healers can still keep up with mana efficient heals at a more relaxed pace.

In majorities of encounters I barely ever touch my NS. I find that I use it on other ppl more than a CD for myself. My hp never drops below 30% anyways. I don't think the extra ~10k hp per minute is really worth bragging about or really matters at lvl 85. at lvl 90, you take more dmg and have more hp, so the extra hp/min you get from your HT is not going to be that much more valuable than it is at 85.

One more interesting point I have noticed. Plate gear have considerably more stam on it than leather. even though we gain 20% extra health from bear form and other tanks only gain 6%, a blood DK in similar ilvl gear can effectively match my health right now satisfying socket bonuses while I am full out stam. How you use this info is up to you.
Edited by Thornykitty on 9/18/2012 7:06 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
09/17/2012 12:40 AMPosted by Thornykitty
One more interesting point I have noticed. Plate gear have considerably more stam on it than leather. even though we gain 20% extra health from bear form and other tanks only gain 6%, a blood DK in similar ilvl gear can effectively match my health right now satisfying socket bonuses while I am full out stam. How you use this info is up to you.
It's actually exactly the same. But k.
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90 Tauren Druid
11070
09/17/2012 07:33 AMPosted by Arielle
It's actually exactly the same. But k.


Well something's off. My Guild's DK tank use to be like 40k hp below me before the patch and now somehow he's only like 3k below me. I know I dropped about 10k from before due to the talents, but he still got a huge boost from something.

Update: I noticed they updated the tooltip. DK get 25% extra stam from blood presense...not 6% anymore.
Edited by Thornykitty on 9/18/2012 7:13 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
09/18/2012 05:50 PMPosted by Thornykitty
Update: I noticed they updated the tooltip. DK get 25% extra stam from blood presense...not 6% anymore.
Yes.
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
Updated for MoP.
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