[Guardian] - MoP Tanking Guide (5.4)

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90 Night Elf Druid
8680
I read through, and noticed some debate about what secondary stats to max for lvl 85 content, but is there a clear consensus for 90? The TiB link you gave says very clearly that mastery stacking should be the way to go in general for H raiding, assuming you don't have the ability to swap gems/reforging for specific fights. Personally, as a main spec cat, mastery stacking is nice since I'll have that on most gear anyways. What I was wondering is that how should we be building stam relative to our other secondary stats? It seems like % wise atm that going strait stam is giving much more than say, dodge (5% vs. 20% hp, pure estimation based on what I was seeing at 85, may be different now).

tldr, for 90 H raiding what seems to be the best right now for pure survivability?
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90 Night Elf Druid
17180
Thanks for all the work.

I noticed you recommended TidyPlates. To me, the threatplates addon to TidyPlates is the real reason to use that addon as a tank.

For a threat meter, I used to use omen. When recount was crippling people in DS, I swapped to Skada. It's not as robust as recount, but it serves its purpose. A nice side feature is that the one addon can spawn multiple windows. It can also change the state of each window based on combat / non. So I use skada as both my damage done (this fight) and threat meter in combat. Out of combat, I have it swap to other windows (currently healing done and damage done (since reset)).
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90 Troll Druid
10805
Anyone else feel like our damage is a bit low?
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
09/29/2012 08:14 PMPosted by Melete
Anyone else feel like our damage is a bit low?

Not really.

A lot of that is a product of heroics doing basically no damage, so you can almost no Vengeance from them.
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90 Troll Druid
10805
09/29/2012 08:48 PMPosted by Arielle
Anyone else feel like our damage is a bit low?

Not really.

A lot of that is a product of heroics doing basically no damage, so you can almost no Vengeance from them.

Just comparing to my guildies, our DK can normally do 40k on bosses while I'm closer to 30k. I may be doing things wrong.
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
09/29/2012 08:58 PMPosted by Melete
Just comparing to my guildies, our DK can normally do 40k on bosses while I'm closer to 30k. I may be doing things wrong.

I haven't been taking logs, so I don't know what kind of DPS I'm doing.

I do use Incarnation, Nature's Vigil, and Berserk on almost every boss. Also I almost always dump rage into Maul since (almost) nothing hits hard enough to matter.
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90 Draenei Priest
8890
Question regarding Hit and Expertise - you guys might be able to help.

When I get to the 7.5% for Expertise, and spell hit and dodge are removed, all that's left is Parry. At this point, I need another 7.5% Expertise to remove Parry, right? Does this mean I need twice as much Expertise as Hit, and when I've reached the Dodge cap for Expertise, is Exp and Hit worth the same still, or does Hit become more valuable?

Also, for red gems, how does Agility compare with Expertise? I'm looking at hybrid gems with with Dodge or Mastery, but I'm not sure whether the red portion should be Agi or Exp.
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
09/30/2012 10:14 AMPosted by Klissa
When I get to the 7.5% for Expertise, and spell hit and dodge are removed, all that's left is Parry. At this point, I need another 7.5% Expertise to remove Parry, right? Does this mean I need twice as much Expertise as Hit, and when I've reached the Dodge cap for Expertise, is Exp and Hit worth the same still, or does Hit become more valuable?

Yes.

09/30/2012 10:14 AMPosted by Klissa
Also, for red gems, how does Agility compare with Expertise? I'm looking at hybrid gems with with Dodge or Mastery, but I'm not sure whether the red portion should be Agi or Exp.
For physical damage reduciton after reaching whatever your RPS softcap is for a given fight (what you need for maximum SD uptime) it would be Agility. Otherwise Expertise.
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90 Draenei Priest
8890
...and when I've reached the Dodge cap for Expertise, is Exp and Hit worth the same still, or does Hit become more valuable?


"Yes"

Sorry, to which of those is the 'yes' applied?

Also, I use Expertise to get my RPS cap, then I go for agility - I'm wondering why Agi is better at that point, since I can use the excess Rage for Frenzied Regen, can't I? Is FR just really bad when compared to the Agi? After reading your response from IncBear, I'm thinking it'll be best to go with Exp in red until I'm Exp capped (if that's possible), and only then going for Agi afterwards. It'll make sure I have enough Rage so I definitely have maximum uptime on SD, and I can still bleed off excess into FRs. Seems better than trying to coast a minimum RPS level to get a bit of extra agi, and finding my SD uptime reduced.

Thanks for the response btw - I hate not knowing stuff, but a lot of people are busy actually playing at the moment, so I appreciate the time you take to answer me.
Edited by Klissa on 9/30/2012 3:39 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
"Yes"Sorry, to which of those is the 'yes' applied?

Both.

It reduces Dodge and then Parry. Although now that I think about it it would be worth slighly less than Hit after the Expertise Dodge cap since after that point only Hit would affect spells (FFF). But it isn't enough to be concerned about.

09/30/2012 03:35 PMPosted by Klissa
I'm wondering why Agi is better at that point, since I can use the excess Rage for Frenzied Regen, can't I?
Yes, you can. However preventing damage is always superior to recovering from it after it was done to you.

09/30/2012 03:35 PMPosted by Klissa
Is FR just really bad when compared to the Agi?
Not at all. It has to do with managing damage intake, healer mana, and your ability to survive during the worst-case scenario.

Expertise only helps you under extremely limited circumstances: When you do not enough enough Rage, will not die within the next 2.5 seconds (or less), and you will not recieve the necessary healing.

Whereas Agility will provide Dodge, which will give you a chance to completely avoid any damage on the combat table.

That being said, different situations will mean you use different stats. In the end as long as you know the tradeoffs, only you are best equipped to make the decision.
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90 Draenei Priest
8890
Alright, thanks for the responses - greatly appreciated.

I guess I'll start with Exp since it'll make things smoother for me in terms of handling rage and whatnot, then I'll switch out of it if/when I feel like I can afford to.
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90 Tauren Druid
13220
I dont know if it's been mentioned yet, but JC is actually extremely powerful as far as increased stat distribution for bears (and any class really).

Currently, as far as stam gems go: 480 stam per Serpent's eye x 3 = 1440 stam. Blue gems currently offer 240 stam, totaling 720 stam for the same 3 sockets.

This is an obvious difference of +720 stamina for 3 Serpent's eye vs 3 River's heart.

This increase in stat availability in MORE than noted in the original write up cited as BS being the best overall increase in stats. (+720 vs + 480 for stamina gems). The nice thing is that primary stats aren't the only ones affected. An example is the Fractured Sun's Radiance vs Fractured Serpent's Eye. 320 Mastery vs 480 mastery x 3 = 960 vs 1440 = +480 Mastery for JC gems. (Agi is 160 vs 320, double dipping each socket for JC gems similar to stam ones, etc.)

Enchanting is also relatively powerful as well, giving a free 320 stamina on rings that wouldn't normally have it, while this increase is substantially less than the 2 extra gem slots, it's a good secondary if someone doesn't want to spend the ungodly amount in leveling BS.

Leatherworking provides the single biggest increase in primary stats, either 500 agi OR 750 stamina for fur lining to bracers.

Min-maxing, to me, shows LW + JC as the two biggest increases in overall primary stats, followed by JC+BS for secondary stats such as mastery/dodge/etc.

Just a thought I had while reading through the guide :-D.
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90 Tauren Druid
11070
I dont know if it's been mentioned yet, but JC is actually extremely powerful as far as increased stat distribution for bears (and any class really).

Currently, as far as stam gems go: 480 stam per Serpent's eye x 3 = 1440 stam. Blue gems currently offer 240 stam, totaling 720 stam for the same 3 sockets.



JC has the unique gem numbers cut down to 2 now so its only 480, on par with BS. that being said, JC got shafted last time at the end of cata when JC came out while BS reaped the benfits. The unique cuts lost their edge and BS sockets gained a huge edge. I wonder if it'll be different this expansion.

I think enchanting is kinda weird at the momment seeing that they only give 2x 160 enchants. they'll prolly fix that though.
Edited by Thornykitty on 10/1/2012 2:14 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
Currently, as far as stam gems go: 480 stam per Serpent's eye x 3 = 1440 stam. Blue gems currently offer 240 stam, totaling 720 stam for the same 3 sockets.This is an obvious difference of +720 stamina for 3 Serpent's eye vs 3 River's heart.

Are you sure you can have 3? Everything I've seen says only 2.

10/01/2012 01:51 PMPosted by Ponji
Leatherworking provides the single biggest increase in primary stats, either 500 agi OR 750 stamina for fur lining to bracers.

Unfortunately that 500 Agility isn't as good as 640 Crit, or 640 Mastery. The Stamina is good, yes.

It's not that primary stats are outright bad or anything, they're just not as great as secondaries.
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90 Tauren Druid
13220
It is only 2, my mistake. For some reason I thought we could have 3.

I'll agree that the agi is a little worse than crit and mastery.

Something I was thinking about is the mastery/dodge disparity right now....

With the way mastery works, with the conversion to armor, i'll agree that it's a great stat to have - but doesn't it only go so far? With most of the bosses doing magic damage this tier, and i'm sure the rest of the tiers, wouldn't it make more sense to have more hit/exp/crit to ensure maximum rage income? Same with dodge, I currently have nearly 2500 rating reforged into it, and i'm only getting a meager +2.75% dodge.

It's great when, somewhere, that 2.75% helps me NOT take damage, but wouldn't it be nicer if I could absorb the incoming damage, convert that damage (via vengeance) into a powerful FR heal, and save my own hide instead?

I'm kinda just wondering if this isn't gonna be basically just like Wrath tanking where towards the end of the expac where bears just stacked stam and basically became immortal with spot heals.
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
10/01/2012 06:43 PMPosted by Ponji
With the way mastery works, with the conversion to armor, i'll agree that it's a great stat to have - but doesn't it only go so far? With most of the bosses doing magic damage this tier, and i'm sure the rest of the tiers, wouldn't it make more sense to have more hit/exp/crit to ensure maximum rage income?

That goes both ways though.

Rage only serves to recover from damage already taken once you are past maximum SD uptime. With damage that you cannot avoid (Dodge) or mitigate (Armor), then this is obviously the only solution, and it works rather well.

For everything else, preventing the damage in the first place is by far the more desirable option.

That's not to say Frenzied Regen is bad or anything, it's just preventing damage > recovering from damage taken.

10/01/2012 06:43 PMPosted by Ponji
I'm kinda just wondering if this isn't gonna be basically just like Wrath tanking where towards the end of the expac where bears just stacked stam and basically became immortal with spot heals.
If our Rage income gets to the point where we can spam FR every 1.5 seconds, then yeah, that'll be a problem.
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
10/01/2012 11:21 PMPosted by Veliladon
Why the stam bias on gems if you're not going all out stam on flasks and the like?
Flasks are ridiculously expensive unless you're an herbalist.
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90 Worgen Mage
11110
Survival: Dodge >= Mastery > Crit > Hit=Exp > Haste


can you please tell me why you don't reforge anything into dodge, everything goes to mastery & crits (for rage generation). Is it better or do you have any other reasons, Arielle? I went to askmrrobot and it's telling me that I should reforge everything into dodge; instead of mastery. and yeah, I stalked/inspected your profile lol :3
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
can you please tell me why you don't reforge anything into dodge, everything goes to mastery & crits (for rage generation). Is it better or do you have any other reasons, Arielle? I went to askmrrobot and it's telling me that I should reforge everything into dodge; instead of mastery. and yeah, I stalked/inspected your profile lol :3

Dodge barely reduces more incoming damage than Mastery, but is more inconsistent about it.

Mastery reduces a tiny bit less on average, but is always active. Once I get some decent Rage generation I'll probably reforge into Dodge after Mastery.
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