[Guardian] - MoP Tanking Guide (5.4)

90 Troll Druid
7385
Why dont you consider the spell damage reduction meta gem a viable option? Im just curious. Is there something obvious im missing that makes the Austere gem better? In my heroic tanking experience, magic damage is giving me the most grief. Generally I trust your judgement Arielle and you're right 99 times out of 100 when it comes to bear tanking, so for now ill use the Austere gem.
Edited by Rockpops on 10/2/2012 4:49 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
10/02/2012 04:25 PMPosted by Rockpops
Why dont you consider the spell damage reduction meta gem a viable option?
It's viable, if you want to be switching your Meta in and out on a fight-by-fight basis.

Overall you'll get more mileage out of the Armor meta.
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90 Tauren Druid
13220
10/01/2012 11:14 PMPosted by Arielle
With the way mastery works, with the conversion to armor, i'll agree that it's a great stat to have - but doesn't it only go so far? With most of the bosses doing magic damage this tier, and i'm sure the rest of the tiers, wouldn't it make more sense to have more hit/exp/crit to ensure maximum rage income?

That goes both ways though.

Rage only serves to recover from damage already taken once you are past maximum SD uptime. With damage that you cannot avoid (Dodge) or mitigate (Armor), then this is obviously the only solution, and it works rather well.

For everything else, preventing the damage in the first place is by far the more desirable option.

That's not to say Frenzied Regen is bad or anything, it's just preventing damage > recovering from damage taken.

I'm kinda just wondering if this isn't gonna be basically just like Wrath tanking where towards the end of the expac where bears just stacked stam and basically became immortal with spot heals.
If our Rage income gets to the point where we can spam FR every 1.5 seconds, then yeah, that'll be a problem.


I agree that preventing the damage taken is more important than recovering from damage, but we can't dodge spells, and armor doesn't mitigate spell damage.

So until that changes, I'd argue that having relatively strong rage income is important. Stacking mastery/dodge is great for bosses that do strictly physical damage because if you avoid or mitigate nearly all the incoming damage, your healers can /afk and the fight becomes ezpz.

Right now, as I've seen through heroics and the raid bosses in MV (haven't gone through abilities in the next two raids), a 'majority' of the damage incoming to both tanks and the entire raid is purely magic damage that can't be mitigated by our armor/mastery. So with that, knowing that stacking those stats is completely useless for mitigating that type of damage, WHY are the stat values so high?

Until we start getting bosses that are pure melee with a few spells intertwined, i'm gonna stick with stacking stam > Hit/Exp to 7.5% > Crit > Exp to 15% > Mastery=Dodge > Haste. This way my FR heal is bigger, I can maintain Savage Defense when required, and more importantly - I have an appropriate way to mitigate all incoming spell damage, through FR, to keep my healers sane.

I think, unless they change the vengeance cap again, or change how the self healing, etc. works, this may be the best way to gear as a bear tank and until proven otherwise (or I just start getting rofl stomped in raids), I'm sticking to it!
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
10/03/2012 11:51 AMPosted by Ponji
Right now, as I've seen through heroics and the raid bosses in MV (haven't gone through abilities in the next two raids), a 'majority' of the damage incoming to both tanks and the entire raid is purely magic damage that can't be mitigated by our armor/mastery.
This isn't entirely correct. I've spent some time browsing logs for MV (snooping on Sunnier and Oatz), and Guard is the only fight where you'll want a predominantly Rage generation build. Their melee is pathetically weak, and the overwhelming majority of the damage (over 50% minimum, closer to 60%+) comes from the bleed. So obviously Frenzied Regen is the biggest answer.

Everything else is overwhelmingly (60%+) melee damage, except Feng. However all of the magic damage in Feng isn't really going to kill you unless you do it wrong. His melee swings however are huge.

10/03/2012 11:51 AMPosted by Ponji
Until we start getting bosses that are pure melee with a few spells intertwined
That's pretty much everything after Feng ^.^

Edit: Obviously the best way to handle this is to have 2 sets of gear, one for each kind of fight. I think I'll be updating the gear list to reflect that - by adding a "best RPS alternative" for those fights where you'll want it.
Edited by Arielle on 10/4/2012 12:05 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Druid
13220
Gara'jal, while he does melee, his shadow based melee attacks are far more devastating, and they're not mitigated by absorption effects, and since they're shadow damage the best thing to do is to either dodge completely, or to have FR ready.

I've noticed while tanking this fight having extra rage generally helps me:
A). Have nearly 100% uptime on SD, which helps keep my voodoo doll friends alive because I'm avoiding damage.
B). Generate HUGE Frenzied heals with my huge stam pool + the massive vengeance buff, which typically allows the two healers I raid with focus on healing voodoo dolls that are taking damage (say from unmitigated shadow attacks from spirit realm), or to just heal where needed.

If I recall, from the strategy guides I've read and the strategies I've seen, the only melee heavy fights in MV are Spirit Kings and Will of the Emporer. Beyond that, I would argue the incoming magic damage is much more dangerous than the physical damage.

I tanked Stone Guard with a hit/exp/stam setup, and it seemed to work great. I was able to reliably self heal Ravage ticks, and dodged a high amount of attacks, which felt comfortable.

Feng felt stupid easy as a bear tank with my setup, I almost never got 3 stacks of any of the debuffs (which nearly put our OT to sleep), but gave me sufficient rage income to help healers out when needed.

I'm still a bit narrow mindedly convinced that dodge/mastery stacking wont be worth it until higher gear levels where we can actually reforge for ~10% dodge, and still have 20% bonus armor.

I'll have to go through my own logs though to see what kind of damage i'm eating vs what I'm mitigating/healing etc. In order to really assess what's what.

can you link sunnier & oatz logs?
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90 Night Elf Druid
17180
Enchanting: Ring enchants grant 320 Agility or Stamina.

Fixed to grant 480 stamina.
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98 Tauren Druid
14280
I would like to mention that symbiosis is deffinitly situational, where you said the priest is awful no matter what is actually wrong, having the priest with tranquility on final phase garajal would be a blessing in disguise, most of them i have found for use and none are entirely useless, Id also like to say in a raiding enviroment using symbiosis on a paladin rather then a shaman is more beneficial because we both benefit with it while shaman only gets something for outside combat.
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100 Draenei Priest
11960
Would it not be better to give a different class our Tranq though, since Priests all have some kind of raid CD (Divine Hymn, PW: Barrier, or Vampiric Embrace)? Is there not a class that, if we gave them Symb then they would also receive Tranq, that doesn't have a raid CD of their own?

I think the the guide is meant to be listing the benefits to the Druid from Symb, not the total raid benefit, as the guide-writer assumes that each druid will make their own decision as to what is best. I mean, if there is ever a fight where Fears are a pain in the behind, getting and extra Fear Ward would actually be quite good. I think I remember the level 80 version of Onyxia having an annoying fear in the last phase, which would even hit the tank and cause the stupid dragon to face the wrong way!

But I do see your point. When I started tanking, I would always give my Symb to whichever class benefit me the most, even if it was something quite minor, like a very situational (and often not-working) Spell Reflect from a warrior. It took me a while to realise that, even though I might not get anything out of giving my Symb to a particular class, the group benefit gained from the ability I give my Symb partner far outweighs the other options.

Personally, I think a caveat of 'use sensibly and at your own discretion' is all that's needed for Symb. It's also fun to have a dynamic ability, and one that we can truly use based on play-style, group-comp, and personal preference, rather than just 'guide say do X so I'm doing X'. Kinda like with the talents - much more fun to have a few choices that are actual choices than just to pick all the +stam +dodge +damage reduction stuff 'cos it's obviously the best.
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
10/10/2012 07:30 AMPosted by Rezlack
I would like to mention that symbiosis is deffinitly situational, where you said the priest is awful no matter what is actually wrong, having the priest with tranquility on final phase garajal would be a blessing in disguise, most of them i have found for use and none are entirely useless, Id also like to say in a raiding enviroment using symbiosis on a paladin rather then a shaman is more beneficial because we both benefit with it while shaman only gets something for outside combat.
Then why not have the Feral Druid Symbiosis the Spriest instead to gain a pretty awesome defensive cooldown instead of giving us nothing?

Or give a Boomkin Mass Dispel? Or a Resto Lifegrip?

If you're talking about the infinitely small scenario where you have a Guardian and a Spriest but no other Druids in a 10m raid, and you need the extra healing then sure, do it.

However those instances aren't going to be very common.

10/10/2012 09:11 AMPosted by Klissa
I think I remember the level 80 version of Onyxia having an annoying fear in the last phase, which would even hit the tank and cause the stupid dragon to face the wrong way!
Well it's an exact copy of the original Onyxia fight, except with bigger numbers. However it was still hilariously easy. I wouldn't have even used it then tbh.
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100 Draenei Priest
11960
Ah, I wasn't around for the original fight, and the guild with whom I raided at the time of the level eighty version was middling at best (people randomly getting fear into Whelp caves, or getting Tail Lashed for no reason etc), so the extra FW would have been useful there.

Personally, I think the abilities given and received need tweaking a bit, to be of more benefit to both parties. I'd like to see tanks get more situational useful spells, like giving a Guardian a Death Grip, or a Prot Paladin a Charge - something that they don't usually have; getting another defensive CD, or a passive DPS increase (Lightning Shield, Consecration etc) whilst always nice, isn't particularly fun or interesting, and we generally have enough of those anyway. Tranq for a caster dps is a great idea, since it allows them a situational spell that will really help out once (maybe twice) during the course of the fight - giving them another dps spell or CD, whilst good for zomgmeters!, isn't that fun either, since it's just more of the same of what you have.

What to give healers is a bit harder, since another healing CD (again, whilst always good) isn't that interesting, and on most hard fights, healers won't really be doing dps (either due to mana restrains or lack of available GCDs), so a dps CD/spell isn't too good either. I think maybe something like a personal survival CD would probably be best - having Dispersion as a Resto Druid, or a B Res for a Holy Paladin would be quite nice, and different from what they usually have. Maybe. I don't know - just speculating now.
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98 Tauren Druid
14280
10/10/2012 04:38 PMPosted by Arielle
I would like to mention that symbiosis is deffinitly situational, where you said the priest is awful no matter what is actually wrong, having the priest with tranquility on final phase garajal would be a blessing in disguise, most of them i have found for use and none are entirely useless, Id also like to say in a raiding enviroment using symbiosis on a paladin rather then a shaman is more beneficial because we both benefit with it while shaman only gets something for outside combat.
Then why not have the Feral Druid Symbiosis the Spriest instead to gain a pretty awesome defensive cooldown instead of giving us nothing?

Or give a Boomkin Mass Dispel? Or a Resto Lifegrip?

If you're talking about the infinitely small scenario where you have a Guardian and a Spriest but no other Druids in a 10m raid, and you need the extra healing then sure, do it.

However those instances aren't going to be very common.

I think I remember the level 80 version of Onyxia having an annoying fear in the last phase, which would even hit the tank and cause the stupid dragon to face the wrong way!
Well it's an exact copy of the original Onyxia fight, except with bigger numbers. However it was still hilariously easy. I wouldn't have even used it then tbh.

In my 25man and my 10man i have used it quite a few times on our shadowpriest over the holy paladin or resto shaman, it isnt small amount of cases and you dont need to be rude like that.
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
10/10/2012 09:07 PMPosted by Rezlack
In my 25man and my 10man i have used it quite a few times on our shadowpriest over the holy paladin or resto shaman, it isnt small amount of cases and you dont need to be rude like that.
It would be better for someone else (pretty much anyone else) to use it on a Shadow Priest. Unless you happen to be the only Druid in the entire raid and you need the extra raid healing CD.
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90 Night Elf Druid
8635
I've been keeping a 7.5% Hit and Expertise goal for my bear. Should I shoot for a lower expertise cap of 4% (read that somewhere, likely Arielle's forums) to start focusing on divying up my stats elsewhere?

Also, I am having a hard time giving up my Ghost Iron Dragonling. This early in the game, the +600 stats are far too enticing.
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90 Tauren Druid
FH
10675


Leatherworking provides the single biggest increase in primary stats, either 500 agi OR 750 stamina for fur lining to bracers.

Unfortunately that 500 Agility isn't as good as 640 Crit, or 640 Mastery. The Stamina is good, yes.

It's not that primary stats are outright bad or anything, they're just not as great as secondaries.


Are you honestly saying that agi is almost 1:1 with both crit and mastery? I find that very hard to believe. If that were so than we would want mastery gems in every socket since a gem is 160 agi but 320 mastery. I have been going under the assumption that 1 agi is about 5 mastery and as such am finding your statement very hard to believe
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
10/12/2012 02:27 PMPosted by Darksend
that 1 agi is about 5 mastery and as such am finding your statement very hard to believe
It's not even close.

Agility isn't the "god" stat anymore. It just does a tiny bit of Dodge, and a tiny bit of Crit.

10/11/2012 09:37 AMPosted by Lushious
Should I shoot for a lower expertise cap of 4% (read that somewhere, likely Arielle's forums) to start focusing on divying up my stats elsewhere?

Getting Expertise and/or Hit for more smooth Rage generation is a completely valid thing to do if you feel that is what you need.
Edited by Arielle on 10/12/2012 4:59 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
10850
Hey. Im not a bear player and never really have been, but i take a interest in knowing how understanding how other tanks work and stumbled by this post.

This one part in specific really caught my attention, and i would really like to understand if there has been a change of game mechanics since 5.0 which i was not aware of, or if this is some kind of wierd bear peculiarity:

Changes in Game Mechanics
Suppressions

Something that previously hasn't been very well understood by most players is the concept of suppressions. That is if you're attacking (or if something is attacking you) and there is a level difference the higher level character (or mob) has an advantage in combat. These are the stats that are affected by suppressions:

[ul]
  • Miss: For every 1 level difference, the chance the higher level combatant's attacks will miss their target is reduced by 1.5%. Additionally the chance the lower level combatant's attacks will miss their target is increased by 1.5%. This effectively means that a boss mob will never "miss" you.
  • [li]Dodge: For every 1 level difference, the chance the higher level combatant's attacks will be dodged is reduced by 1.5%.
    ....


    I have the impression most of the paladin and warrior tanking community is wel aquainted with this concept of suppressions.
    Untill cata we knew that "CTC capping" required 102.4% rather then 100% justly because of supressions. What is boggling me is the precise values you claim the game supresses for each given level difference.
    You see, our traditional 102.4% came from 0.2% supressions for each level, a three level difference to raid bosses, and 4 total supressed stats (miss, parry, dodge and block), and i am absolutely positive this was correct modeling for paladins during cataclism.
    Even though CTC capping is no longer a part of our reality, i was beleiving that the supressed values remained 0.2% per level difference per stat, and it is quite important to be informed if these values changed.

    My question is essencialy: Where supressed values actualy changed to 1.5% per level diference per stat? Is this something that only applies to bears? Am I (as a paladin) losing 4.5% miss, dodge, parry and block whenever i face a current raid boss?
    To me it sounds incorrect, i cant beleive blizzard would remove a devastating 18% of our defensive combat table coverage against raid bosses.
    If this is indeed a confirmed fact, i would much apreciate a link to the source of this information.

    Aditionaly, i understood that the game base miss chance was 5%. Even if 4.5%(1.5*3) of it was to be supressed by level difference with the supression values given in your post, a 0.5% chance would remain, which contrasts with the affirmation that there is no possibility of a boss miss chance.
    Again the inconsistency with the knowledge i thought to have and the affirmations make me question the accuracy of the affirmation that there is no boss miss chance, and, should it prove to be the case, a reference to the statement that base miss chances were altered to 4.5% would be apreceated.
    Edited by Aresius on 10/14/2012 12:54 PM PDT
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    90 Pandaren Monk
    12210
    does that mean all other tanks besides bears lose 9% avoidance total from dodge and parry cuz they are 2 seperate supression affected stats? while bear only lose 4.5% from dodge?

    I also noticed your insistence on getting a speed bonus to boots, why is this neccessary?

    In my 25man and my 10man i have used it quite a few times on our shadowpriest over the holy paladin or resto shaman, it isnt small amount of cases and you dont need to be rude like that.
    It would be better for someone else (pretty much anyone else) to use it on a Shadow Priest. Unless you happen to be the only Druid in the entire raid and you need the extra raid healing CD.


    There are many grps out there that does not have a 2nd druid, especially the 10 man grps. my grp is one of them. In a 25 man grp it is likely you have more than 1 druid. But you may also have more than 1 shadow priest, in which case you may want to choose to have 2 tranqs over tank CDs depending on the encounter. but if you have a resto druid and only 1 shadow priest, yea, let him do the symb on the spriest, at least he gets something useful out of it.

    When you use symb both parties gain a spell. Quite often only 1 person will get something beneficial. Although bone shield and elusive brew are nice, the wild shroom and bear hug is pretty much just as useless as fear ward. so the real question to compare is, is tranquility a better choice for your raid? If you have a responsible shadow priest that knows when to use it effectively, and the encounter leans heavy towards raid wide dmg, I think it's probably a better choice than bone shield or elusive brew. On the encounters where there's not alot of raid damage though, it's probably fine if you don't use that tranq and get the tank CD instead.

    In my personal opinion though, having that bone shield or elusive brew does not make or break you as a tank, but having that tranq can some times make or break the raid. Although you may not use all of the symb combinations, it is a good idea to know what each combination do, so you(and most importantly, your group) can exploit it to the max from encounter to encounter.

    10/12/2012 02:27 PMPosted by Darksend
    I have been going under the assumption that 1 agi is about 5 mastery


    Where are you getting this gut feeling from? the small amount of dodge you gain from agi is laughable compared to how much armor you get from 2x mastery in the same gem slot. you'd honestly be better using a dodge gem. If you don't want mastery, go hit/exp for way better rage generation than what you gain from the crit of the agi gem. As for frenzy, agi does not apply because it is subtracted from the vengence during calculation. There's no possible reason why you would want to put an agi gem into a red socket now that secondary gem stats are doubled.
    Edited by Mistybrew on 10/15/2012 3:06 AM PDT
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    90 Human Paladin
    10850
    10/14/2012 10:06 PMPosted by Arielle
    Or since you're apparently too lazy


    I dont get it.
    I re-read my post and couldent find any part that could be interpreted as provocative or rude.
    This lazy remark was uncalled for.
    When i first read your post i googled "wow supressions MoP" and "WoW miss MoP", didint find any relelvant information on the first page results, and figured i would post a question and ask for a reference.
    Not knowing where or how to search for information doesent make me lazy. You could at most say i am missinformed.
    But if you are unwilling to deal with people who are less informed then you are, what the hell are you writing a guide for?
    Hence why i cant agree with your self compliment
    10/14/2012 10:06 PMPosted by Arielle
    and I'm too nice

    A guy that cant even act in a civil manner certainly isint "nice".

    You could have ended your reply at

    Um. It's somewhere in the Beta Class Analysis thread (the first one I think)? I'm not about to go find it for you though.

    I would have found what i wanted and you would have made less of a douchebag of yourself.

    Anyhow, thank you for the link. Dispite attitude, you've been of much help.
    Edited by Aresius on 10/15/2012 6:57 AM PDT
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    90 Troll Druid
    8710
    Great info, I have never tanking in the last 4 years of playing Feral and I must say man...I have been missing out on so much fun.

    I am doing a lot of what you recommend such as making mastery my main stat, is there a cap I should focus on for mastery then switch to something else once I meet it?

    Thanks for the info!
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