[Guardian] - MoP Tanking Guide (5.4)

90 Pandaren Monk
12210
@aresius

you belong in the master debaters club.
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
10/15/2012 02:03 AMPosted by Mistybrew
I also noticed your insistence on getting a speed bonus to boots, why is this neccessary?
Because you always get move speed as a tank. Always. Any time where you have to move you have to move quickly. Saving a wipe through movement wastly outweighs whatever meager stats you would gain otherwise.

10/15/2012 07:00 AMPosted by Shiroh
I am doing a lot of what you recommend such as making mastery my main stat, is there a cap I should focus on for mastery then switch to something else once I meet it?

I'm reasonably sure it's not possible to cap Mastery this expansion. It might be possible at the very, very, end (T16?) but not confirmed yet since it will 100% depend on itemization.
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90 Night Elf Druid
9985
So if I'm having trouble healing a bear because spike damage is insane, and he's stacking dodge (second to stam), should I steer him more toward mastery? I know he's using CDs during burst, too, so it's not an active mitigation issue.
Edited by Eillan on 10/15/2012 9:39 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
12210
10/15/2012 07:31 AMPosted by Arielle
Because you always get move speed as a tank. Always. Any time where you have to move you have to move quickly. Saving a wipe through movement wastly outweighs whatever meager stats you would gain otherwise.


I think that is debatable. What do you get? like 10% speed boost? in the time that it takes an unencahnted tank to run 10 yards you'd run 1 extra yard. whoop dee doo. Most boss cast mechanics have about 2 or 3 seconds cast time. the average human takes 1/4 of a second to perceive a threat and another 1/4 to react. that gives you about 1.5-2.5 seconds to get out of the way. There are only 2 type of mechanics I can think of where this would possibly have a clear advantage.

1, there needs to be a one-shot/catastrophic aoe mechanic where it has an extensively long cast time(at least 2.5 seconds or more) and a large dead zone for the tank to run out of. anything less of the size would produce minimal benefits from the boost. anything less potent you can probably get away with even if you got hit for 1 tick. Only mechanic that really comes to mind right now is defile on lich king.

2, kiting mechanic such as heroic shannox. Don't get encounters like this very often and with the current talent system you would be fine if you gave up wild charge for this.

In the current raid teir, I can see that feng's lightning fist might apply. however, I can easily avoid it without any help, and even if I do get hit it is always recoverable. in fact, I get hit on purpose sometimes so the other tank can copy it from me. It's actually harder to fight the instinct to want to run out of the way when that happens lol.

I can see it would definately help in the case that a tank may have slow connection or someone with slow reaction time. But its arguable that its required by every tank. I have been dealing with mechanics just fine without it since forever. That, at least to me, makes your statement a suggestion and not a necessity. Besides, there are plenty of raid utility from almost every group you could use for the few occasions where you really need to run. aside from the CDs that we can pop and the CDs raid members can use on you such as life grip or body and soul or w/e, you still get the 15 second wild charge. if an encounter ever becomes a problem where I NEED that extra speed. switching out for feral swiftness would be a good compromise.

Personally, I have never had to swap out for feral swiftness. only help I ever needed for speed boost was maybe shannox where I got the priests to life grip me. Even then, it was not necessary, it just "helped".

so thx for the opinion, I'll keep the option in mind, but I think I'll be fine without it for now.

10/15/2012 09:38 AMPosted by Eillan
So if I'm having trouble healing a bear because spike damage is insane, and he's stacking dodge (second to stam), should I steer him more toward mastery? I know he's using CDs during burst, too, so it's not an active mitigation issue.


It could be a combination between you and the guardian. It may be just my experience, but I don't think resto druid does very good burst heals. Swiftmend heals for only a small amount and its on a long 15 second CD. the efloresence it pops will only work if the tank is stationary in the area. healing touch is too slow to spam, and regrowth is too costly and inefficient on mana. you can only stack up lots of HoTs along with wild growth when such time comes and then hope your tank knows what he's doing.

as for the bear, Depending on the nature of the "burst" the guardian needs to choose accordingly weather to use frenzy regen or savage defense. The higher the frequency of the attack, the better it is to use SD. If you are tanking a huge grp where you get a large amounts of small strikes, you can effectively avoid ~60% of the incomming dmg by using SD. Frenzy should be avoided during such cases because the dmg here tend to be consistent and quick. the dmg will drain you quicker than you can gain rage. On the other hand, SD becomes pretty lame on hard and slow swings. when the boss only attacks you in 3 second intervals, sometimes the SD will end up wasting your precious rage for absolutely nothing.

stacking dodge or mastery will not make a huge difference in these situations, one gives you a small amount of dodge while the other gives you a small amount of physical DR. while stamina will give you the buffer for a longer reaction time and leniancy towards more bigger, longer casting but mana to health efficient spells. Hit and expertise might also play a crucial factor. If the tank cannot generate enough rage to keep SD up or spam frenzy, all is moot. its almost like a monk that can't keep shuffle up. glass factory.
Edited by Mistybrew on 10/15/2012 3:28 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
10/15/2012 09:38 AMPosted by Eillan
So if I'm having trouble healing a bear because spike damage is insane, and he's stacking dodge (second to stam), should I steer him more toward mastery? I know he's using CDs during burst, too, so it's not an active mitigation issue.
Without knowing more about the encounter or having a combat log, this is hard to diagnose. It could be incorrect ability usage, ignoring mechanics, movement issue (turning back to something), or just about anything.

10/15/2012 02:55 PMPosted by Mistybrew
so thx for the opinion, I'll keep the option in mind, but I think I'll be fine without it for now.
Things like movement speed boosts mostly come down to an opinion anyway.
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90 Night Elf Druid
7200
Hello all,

I've been tanking the first few heroic MV bosses, and I'm extremely frustrated. For H-Stoneguard I went full stam (majority of the damage is bleed damage) because I obviously can't avoid the damage. I took more damage than the other two tanks (monk, DK) but that was expected.
Except for every other boss I've been taking much more damage than the other tank/tanks, especially the monk who takes up to 8% less total damage than me. For Heroic Gara'jal, it was almost impossible for me to tank, even with keeping up savage defense practically 100% of the time, and having a CD rolling (whether it be my own or external). I wasn't dying, but voodoo doll damage was very high.
Elegon is going to probobly rick-roll me as well. Any other bears tanking heroic content have anything to post? Are they taking more damage than other tanks? Obviously re-gemming for specific fights will have an impact, but to what degree? I also reforged from dodge --> mastery --> then to exp/hit for max rage generation for my SD uptime. I feel more comfortable with this build at the moment, but I would really appreciate anyone's insight.

Thanks

Forgot to add that I am tanking 25 man.
Edited by Salnar on 10/18/2012 4:12 PM PDT
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90 Troll Druid
13770
For stone guard you should be prioritizing Crit>hit=expertise>haste>mastery>dodge. Since all the damage is from the bleed you want to solely FR. There are two good ways to go around this. One is to FR every GCD for a pretty hefty HoT. The other is to wait for health spikes and high rage and use mostly big nuke heals on yourself. As long as you don't overheal too much and you don't cap on rage, you should be roughly on par with other tanks.

For Garajal guardians are really at a disadvantage. From my personal experience, we produce slightly less overall voodoo doll damage on the raid, but it is far spikier and thus harder to heal. Brewmasters are very powerful on this fight for their ability to smooth out the voodoo doll damage. Unfortunately there's not much you can do about this. Just try to get high SD uptime and to rotate CDs as much as possible (dont forgot about externals, especially BoP).

On Feng I was taking pretty similar amounts to our brewmaster/pally tanks, but then again the strat we were using involved one tank tanking a disproportionate amount of time, so it is a bit harder to tell.

On Elegon normal mode I was taking a significantly less amount of damage than our monk tank, even when I would be tanking the entire sub 50% phase.

On Will we are arguably the best tanks due to our ability to keep 100% SD uptime while tanking the bosses the entire encounter.

Overall one thing I think we are really lacking is more meaningful raid CD/healing contributions. Paladins in particular really excel at this with things like Light's Hammer and Dev Aura and brewmasters have their Ox Statue, but really it isn't too big a deal.

TLDR: We are fine, if you can't kill a boss due to the classes of your tanks (with maybe the exception of Garajal), then you probably are having larger issues.
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90 Night Elf Druid
7200
Your reforging strat for stoneguard makes sense, but that does not affect the amount of damage i'm taking, it only allows for good FR use (which I'm already doing).

Agreed on Gara'jal.

How are you taking significant less damage on elegon? Most of the damage is magic. But normal elegon isn't an issue, i foresee issues on heroic however.
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90 Pandaren Monk
12210
Boss dmg on Gara'jal isn't whats causing you or the other voodoo dolls to spike. Whats causing the voodoo dolls to spike is the dmg from the ads. they hit for like 100k a pop and x3 cuz each doll gets one. if each of you take 1 hit, thats 300k dmg each. Sure, tanks taking less melee from gara will help, but the big chunk is still from keeping the ads in check. When you get banished, make sure you do some dmg on the ads if you have plenty of time to spare when you're about to kill your tank ad. It's also nice to symb a monk or DK for this fight. I'd preferr DK over monk since gara atks slow. barkskin on every turn without saying, I try to use that as a in-between when I need my SD stacks to regen. and short CD survival for when dmg spikes from buildup of ads. don't waste the CD unless the ads are building up. BoP is OP and you should have more than 1 pally in 25 man for that I hope. Guardians may not be the best tanks for this fight, but its not a deal breaker if you have to step up to the plate.

I still can't agree that mastery or dodge is worth it for focused reforging. alot of dmg are magical, and armor don't help bleeds. for what little amounts you get from the 2 stats you I think you can do better with other stats. hit and exp is nice for consistent rage. When you need to spam FR or SD, don't forget your 2 big rage CDs. Incarnation and zerk. between the 2 of them you should have a burst rage period every 1.5 min. most of the time you won't need to have 100% SD up time or FR spam, but when you do, use these and you won't have to reforge.
Edited by Mistybrew on 10/19/2012 12:24 AM PDT
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90 Troll Druid
13770
Keep in mind that on Stone Guard we will inevitably take far more damage than other tanks, however you can easily do 45k hps on yourself which more than makes up for the damage taken difference.

As for Elegon just make sure to be managing your CDs and SD charges well, and you should be in a really good place. There's lots of downtime where you can save up charges. Looking at my logs from my 2 kills, about 70% of my damage taken from Elegon/Protectors is melee swings, so in my own personal opinion mastery comes out on top.

Just really remember that there really is no RIGHT way (except on certain bosses like Stone Guard). Do what makes you and your healers most comfortable.

Also in regards to Garajal, the primary reason we are inferior tanks is that our damage taken tends to be a little spikier than other tanks, which is harder to heal than smooth damage. We do very well on overall damage mitigation for the voodoo doll damage, but if you take a melee hit and a shadowy attack back to back and the voodoo dolls arent topped you can get some deaths.
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90 Tauren Druid
12775
Such a good guide and best Guardian druid topic ever.

I'm still very confused that we have nothing to reduce or prevent spell damage taken?
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
10/23/2012 08:06 PMPosted by Turuurism
I'm still very confused that we have nothing to reduce or prevent spell damage taken?
Beyond Thick Hide (which is a passive 25% reduction) no. But that's still better than anything we had in Cataclysm.
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86 Night Elf Druid
2550
I realize this is probably a pretty general question but I only just started tanking again, and picked my druid to it. I'm obviously not 90 yet, but my DK is. I follow rotations to no end, and in group fights I cannot for the life of me keep the aggro on me. I charge in, mangle, thrash, switch targets for another mangle. Some mob always turns towards a finicky shaman who can't wait to post the Recount as soon as the fight's over and yell that I'm a bad tank. Am I doing something wrong, or.. are people not giving me enough time to build hate on the mob?
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
10/24/2012 11:20 PMPosted by Relance
Am I doing something wrong, or.. are people not giving me enough time to build hate on the mob?

You aren't going to generate a lot Vengeance at lower levels - and it will be super easy for DPS to pump out more single target than you can AoE.

I wouldn't sweat it unless you have problems at 90.
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90 Pandaren Monk
12210
don't forget swipe. swipe kind of replaces lacerate for your aoe rotation but doesn't have the chance to refresh mangle like lacerate does. I'm not sure if frenzy regen heals generate threat, but if it does it might be a better aoe rage dump than maul.

also helps if you get a threat monitoring name plate addon like tidy plates. that way you can tell which exact mob the dps are about to pull and you can switch your mangle target accordingly. Comparing threat with DK or Monk is unfair imo, they burst generate so much aoe threat its not even funny. keg smash... ... ...lawl.
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90 Tauren Druid
14205
No idea if this is a good place to post this, but I noticed this on MMO-C today and thought it looked kind of interesting. I don't know if it's actually going to be added, but either way:

Tooth and Claw
Druid - Guardian Spec
Requires Bear Form

Your autoattacks in Bear Form have a 40% chance to empower your next Maul for 10 sec. Empowered Maul causes its victim's next autoattack within 15 sec to deal (max((AP - 200% of AGI) * 250 / 100,0% of STA / 100) * 0.4) less damage.

It seems pretty neat.
Edited by Morrie on 10/26/2012 3:58 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
No idea if this is a good place to post this, but I noticed this on MMO-C today and thought it looked kind of interesting. I don't know if it's actually going to be added, but either way:

Tooth and Claw
Druid - Guardian Spec
Requires Bear Form

Your autoattacks in Bear Form have a 40% chance to empower your next Maul for 10 sec. Empowered Maul causes its victim's next autoattack within 15 sec to deal (max((AP - 200% of AGI) * 250 / 100,0% of STA / 100) * 0.4) less damage.

It seems pretty neat.

Yeah. We've been asking for some sort of change to Maul for a long time now. I guess Blizzard just needed actual raiding evidence to convince them to make it.

There are still a lot of unknowns, but it looks more like an added 'perk' than anything else. We'll have to see exactly how it functions (downloading PTR right nao).
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90 Night Elf Druid
14030
Is the accompanying Thick hide tooltip change just a tooltip change? Mmo reads like it's new but I thought this what changed in beta.
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
10/27/2012 01:17 PMPosted by Nourah
Is the accompanying Thick hide tooltip change just a tooltip change? Mmo reads like it's new but I thought this what changed in beta.

It's a TT change.
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100 Troll Druid
13870
Empowered maul sounds pretty cool. I kind of wish it had some functionality against magic damage though, we already have quite a bit of physical reduction with mastery and SD.
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