Fury of Pandaria: PvE Fury in MoP

(Sticky)

90 Dwarf Warrior
5965
Hey Sam would it be better to go with the lava coral or the +40 to crit. The lightstones are hard to come by on my server most days. I would love to hear your feedback on the setup i have. Sorry if i keep asking for tons of help. I am trying to digest all the info and make sure i am doing things correctly :).
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90 Orc Warrior
17020
Honestly? I wouldn't bother regemming with one week left. You're better off saving the gold.
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90 Worgen Warrior
8560
I've been messing around with simcraft the last day, just doing ridiculous things to see if there is something that we haven't thought of, and I found something interesting.

Glyph of Recklessness is a 40ish DPS loss in T14H gear for SMF, and a 70-80ish dps loss for TG. (Not entirely sure why it is more of a dps loss for TG.)

Now, this is something that I thought might be true when I first saw the glyph. A lot of people were saying that due to the bloodthirst crit cap that it would be preferable to use this glyph. However, recklessness's value comes from being able to guarantee critical hits during colossus smash, and the glyph reduced the amount of crits that were occuring during colossus smash, but increased them outside of it due to longer duration.

I decided to test it out due due to a couple of bosses that I did this week.

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-a59cgz2w01ar9wvs/sum/damageDone/?s=1889&e=2037

http://i.imgur.com/IAnFK.png

25% of my overall damage was done by 6 executes. (5 crits)

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-a59cgz2w01ar9wvs/details/4/?s=5&e=103

31% of my overall damage was done by 5 executes. (5 crits)

Now, I know it's a small sample size.. but these 2 logs, combined with some LFR nonsense I've done over the last few days, led me to believe that our overall damage is HIGHLY correlated to how many cds we use during execute, how many times execute crits, and most of all, how many of your executes crit during colossus smash. This isn't really surprising, but it seems to be something that was overlooked when everyone decided to choose the glyph of recklessness. I removed the glyph of recklessness in simcraft, and viola, dps increase.

TLDR: Glyph of recklessness is a dps loss.

Here is a copy/paste of what I put into simulationcraft. It includes a few changes to the default priority list, notably using deadly calm and bloodbath during CS, and increasing the rage requirement for wild strike outside of bloodsurge/colossus smash.

:Late edit: Threw in the latest priority list that I have. The multiple lines for a single ability are for debugging purposes.

This priority list is a 2.3k dps increase over the default priority list.
#!./simc

warrior="Warrior_Fury_1h_T14H"
origin="http://mop.chardev.org/profile/474-Warrior_Fury_1h_T14H.html"
level=90
race=worgen
spec=fury
role=attack
position=back
professions=blacksmithing=600
talents=http://us.battle.net/wow/en/tool/talent-calculator#ZZ!122211
glyphs=unending_rage/death_from_above

actions.precombat=flask,type=winters_bite
actions.precombat+=/food,type=black_pepper_ribs_and_shrimp
actions.precombat+=/snapshot_stats
actions.precombat+=/stance,choose=battle
actions.precombat+=/mogu_power_potion

actions=auto_attack
actions+=/mogu_power_potion,if=(target.health.pct<20&buff.recklessness.up)|buff.bloodlust.react|target.time_to_die<=25
actions+=/recklessness,use_off_gcd=1,if=((debuff.colossus_smash.remains>=5|cooldown.colossus_smash.remains<=4)&((!talent.avatar.enabled|!set_bonus.tier14_4pc_melee)&((target.health.pct<20|target.time_to_die>315|(target.time_to_die>165&set_bonus.tier14_4pc_melee)))|(talent.avatar.enabled&set_bonus.tier14_4pc_melee&buff.avatar.up)))|target.time_to_die<=18
actions+=/avatar,use_off_gcd=1,if=talent.avatar.enabled&(((cooldown.recklessness.remains>=180|buff.recklessness.up)|(target.health.pct>=20&target.time_to_die>195)|(target.health.pct<20&set_bonus.tier14_4pc_melee))|target.time_to_die<=20)
actions+=/bloodbath,use_off_gcd=1,if=talent.bloodbath.enabled&debuff.colossus_smash.up
actions+=/skull_banner,use_off_gcd=1,if=buff.recklessness.up|target.time_to_die<=10
actions+=/berserker_rage,use_off_gcd=1,if=!(buff.enrage.react|(buff.raging_blow.react=2&target.health.pct>=20))
actions+=/heroic_leap,use_off_gcd=1,if=debuff.colossus_smash.up
actions+=/deadly_calm,use_off_gcd=1,if=debuff.colossus_smash.up
actions+=/heroic_strike,use_off_gcd=1,if=rage>=110
actions+=/heroic_strike,use_off_gcd=1,if=debuff.colossus_smash.up&rage>=40&target.health.pct>=20
actions+=/heroic_strike,use_off_gcd=1,if=debuff.colossus_smash.up&buff.deadly_calm.up&rage>=30&target.health.pct>=20
actions+=/heroic_strike,use_off_gcd=1,if=(((debuff.colossus_smash.up&rage>=40)|(buff.deadly_calm.up&rage>=30))&target.health.pct>=20)|rage>=110
actions+=/execute,if=target.time_to_die<10&rage>90
actions+=/execute,if=target.time_to_die<5
actions+=/bloodthirst,if=!(target.health.pct<20&debuff.colossus_smash.up&rage>=30)
actions+=/wild_strike,if=buff.bloodsurge.react&target.health.pct>=20&cooldown.bloodthirst.remains<=1
actions+=/wait,sec=cooldown.bloodthirst.remains,if=!(target.health.pct<20&debuff.colossus_smash.up&rage>=30)&cooldown.bloodthirst.remains<=1
actions+=/colossus_smash
actions+=/execute,if=debuff.colossus_smash.up
actions+=/execute,if=cooldown.colossus_smash.remains>10
actions+=/execute,if=rage>50
actions+=/execute,if=target.time_to_die<10
actions+=/raging_blow,if=buff.raging_blow.stack=2
actions+=/raging_blow,if=cooldown.colossus_smash.remains<6
actions+=/raging_blow,if=cooldown.berserker_rage.remains<6
actions+=/raging_blow,if=buff.raging_blow.remains<3
actions+=/raging_blow
actions+=/dragon_roar,if=talent.dragon_roar.enabled
actions+=/wild_strike,if=buff.bloodsurge.react&target.health.pct>=20
actions+=/heroic_throw,if=debuff.colossus_smash.down&target.health.pct>=20
actions+=/battle_shout,if=rage<70&!debuff.colossus_smash.up
actions+=/wild_strike,if=debuff.colossus_smash.up&target.health.pct>=20
actions+=/impending_victory,if=talent.impending_victory.enabled&target.health.pct>=20
actions+=/wild_strike,if=cooldown.colossus_smash.remains>=1&rage>=90&target.health.pct>=20
actions+=/battle_shout,if=rage<70

head=helmet_of_resounding_rings,id=87192,gems=reverberating_primal_160crit_160hit_180str,reforge=hit_crit
neck=necklace_of_congealed_weaknesses,id=86967,reforge=mastery_exp
shoulders=shoulderpads_of_misshapen_life,id=86986,gems=160exp_160crit_60str,enchant=200str_100crit,reforge=mastery_exp
back=cloak_of_peacock_feathers,id=87026,enchant=180crit,reforge=exp_hit
chest=battleplate_of_resounding_rings,id=87193,gems=320crit_320crit_120crit,enchant=80all,reforge=haste_mastery
wrists=bracers_of_defiled_earth,id=90506,gems=320crit_480crit,enchant=180str,reforge=mastery_crit
hands=gauntlets_of_resounding_rings,id=87194,gems=320crit,enchant=170str,reforge=exp_mastery
waist=patrollers_girdle_of_endless_spring,id=87186,gems=160crit_160hit_320crit_60crit,reforge=hit_mastery
legs=legplates_of_resounding_rings,id=87195,gems=160exp_160crit_60str,enchant=285str_165crit,reforge=mastery_crit
feet=jasper_clawfeet,id=87015,gems=320crit_60crit,enchant=140mastery
finger1=ring_of_the_bladed_tempest,id=86957,reforge=haste_crit
finger2=dread_shadow_ring,id=87158
trinket1=darkmist_vortex,id=87172
trinket2=relic_of_xuen,id=79327
main_hand=kilrak_jaws_of_terror,id=87173,gems=500str,enchant=dancing_steel,reforge=hit_crit
off_hand=kilrak_jaws_of_terror,id=87173,enchant=dancing_steel,reforge=hit_crit
Edited by Collision on 9/26/2012 12:38 PM PDT
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90 Worgen Warrior
4625
So, i have a few questions. On this guide, you recommend hybrid gems to be strength/crit. Esoterickk's guide calls for all gem slots to be used for crit, crit/hit, or crit/expertise. The latter idea seems more useful with the doubled power gems have for secondary stats. Why strength?

Also: A couple of us warriors have mentioned a sort of lag inhibiting our ability to run a full rotation GCD to GCD. There's now a thread about this problem, called "Issue with Raging Blow procs", but more importantly, I noticed that in Landsoul's final video on the arms and fury rotation, he had the same problem landing 3 abilities between mortal strikes that I've been having with 2 between bloodthirsts. What is that, why did it only pop up after patch 5.0.4, and where do I sign a petition to get it checked out by debuggers?

Also also, is it possible that since a stat budget for secondary stats is pretty much liquid, what with gemming and reforging, why are 260 crit gems any better than 260 expertise/hit gems? Wouldn't it be a good idea to take whichever would allow full advantage of a socket bonus to be taken?

And finally, why is everyone so down on bloodsurge? If i BT, and it gives me 1 RB charge as well as bloodsurge(assuming CS is on cooldown), why wouldn't I just use up all 3 bloodsurge charges and bank on the absolutely waste-free possibility that my next BT will stack the RB charge?

Edit:"furylegs" redacted to "fury" because my autocorrect is not the boss of me.
Edited by Horrack on 9/14/2012 1:01 PM PDT
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90 Orc Warrior
17020
09/14/2012 12:56 PMPosted by Horrack
So, i have a few questions. On this guide, you recommend hybrid gems to be strength/crit. Esoterickk's guide calls for all gem slots to be used for crit, crit/hit, or crit/expertise. The latter idea seems more useful with the doubled power gems have for secondary stats. Why strength?


Really depends on socket bonuses. If it's a crit or strength bonus and a red socket, inscribed. Otherwise, I'd go plain crit.

09/14/2012 12:56 PMPosted by Horrack
Also also, is it possible that since a stat budget for secondary stats is pretty much liquid, what with gemming and reforging, why are 260 crit gems any better than 260 expertise/hit gems? Wouldn't it be a good idea to take whichever would allow full advantage of a socket bonus to be taken?


What exactly are you asking here? Are you asking why not use exp or hit gems instead of crit gems before the cap or something?
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90 Worgen Warrior
8560
09/14/2012 12:56 PMPosted by Horrack
And finally, why is everyone so down on bloodsurge? If i BT, and it gives me 1 RB charge as well as bloodsurge(assuming CS is on cooldown), why wouldn't I just use up all 3 bloodsurge charges and bank on the absolutely waste-free possibility that my next BT will stack the RB charge?


This is something that I have been looking into, but so far I haven't been able to show a dps increase for SMF or TG in simcraft. I don't know why, but I'll continue looking into it, as I'm 90% sure that it's a DPS increase to "Save" the raging blow when you have a bloodsurge proc.
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90 Worgen Warrior
8120
The problem lies in the fact that you could possibly waste a Raging Blow proc by getting over 2 charges if you wait.
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90 Orc Warrior
17020
09/14/2012 01:47 PMPosted by Ochron
The problem lies in the fact that you could possibly waste a Raging Blow proc by getting over 2 charges if you wait.


That assumes you already have a charge of Raging Blow available. If not, that shouldn't be an issue.

Still working on updating the guide.
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90 Worgen Warrior
8560
09/14/2012 01:47 PMPosted by Ochron
The problem lies in the fact that you could possibly waste a Raging Blow proc by getting over 2 charges if you wait.


As the previous person mentioned, this shouldn't happen as long as colossus smash/berserker rage aren't coming off cooldown in the next 6 seconds.

BT(Enrage/Bloodsurge)
WS x 3
BT(Enrage)
RB X 2 (No waste)

Is how it should work in theory, but what IS a dps loss, is the following.

BT(Enrage/Bloodsurge)
WS x 3
BT(Enrage)
CS or BR(Enrage, one stack of RB wasted)

So as long as BR/CS aren't coming up in the next few GCDs, it should be a dps increase.

My problem with simcraft is that I have a very basic understanding of programming logic, so I'm having trouble translating this into code.
Edited by Collision on 9/14/2012 2:11 PM PDT
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90 Worgen Warrior
4625
@Samayael-On the first point, I was really asking why you value strength over hit/exp. Your priority lists hit(7.5) and expertise(7.5) as superior to strength and even crit-why shouldn't we gem for it? Instead of 60 strength, 120 expertise would, hypothetically, free up double the reforges for more crit, coming out to a gain in each crit/expertise socket that is exactly as valuable as a flat crit gem would be.

On the second point, yes. That was my question. If it takes a total liquid secondary stat pool of 5100 to cap hit and expertise, isn't it possible that it will be necessary or advantageous to reach that cap with gems? Why, actually, since three secondary stats outweigh strength, does it even matter which ones are gemmed for, since they would all contribute to the optimal stat budget anyway?
Edited by Horrack on 9/14/2012 2:13 PM PDT
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90 Orc Warrior
17020
09/14/2012 02:10 PMPosted by Horrack
@Samayael-On the first point, I was really asking why you value strength over hit/exp. Your priority lists hit(7.5) and expertise(7.5) as superior to strength and even crit-why shouldn't we gem for it? Instead of 60 strength, 120 expertise would, hypothetically, free up double the reforges for more crit, coming out to a gain in each crit/expertise socket that is exactly as valuable as a flat crit gem would be.


On the second point, yes. That was my question. If it takes a total liquid secondaryon stat pool of 5100 to cap hit and expertise, isn't it possible that it will be necessary or advantageous to reach that cap with gems? Why, actually, since three secondary stats outweigh strength, does it even matter which ones are gemmed for, since they would all contribute to the optimal stat budget anyway?


These both go hand in hand really, but the stat priority kind of assumes you can reach the hit/exp caps without gemming for it, which is 100% possible; I was able to do it in Malevolent PvP gear. I could likely do the same in Dreadful gear. That's why you favor strength/crit gems over hit/exp gems since you can't really reforge for strength, but you can for hit/exp.

Before, say maybe LFR gear or equivalent epics, it may be advantageous to use exp/crit gems (Crafty), yes. That is true. That shouldn't be the case, however, after you get into epics.
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90 Worgen Warrior
4625
I'm not sure I'm coming across effectively with this question. Strength is less important per point than crit until and unless we can soft-cap crit at 50%. Every gem that gives us expertise, crit or hit gives those stats in double the amount of strength we could get from that socket. My question is why strength is better than hit or expertise, because every point of hit/exp you gem for is a point of crit you can reforge into instead of reforging into your caps. I don't understand why strength is ever worth gemming for before 45% unbuffed crit.
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90 Worgen Warrior
8120
Yes, I missed that part originally, Collision. I find myself doing that sometimes depending on where the duration are for RB and Bloodsurge.
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90 Worgen Warrior
8560
09/14/2012 02:21 PMPosted by Horrack
I'm not sure I'm coming across effectively with this question. Strength is less important per point than crit until and unless we can soft-cap crit at 50%. Every gem that gives us expertise, crit or hit gives those stats in double the amount of strength we could get from that socket. My question is why strength is better than hit or expertise, because every point of hit/exp you gem for is a point of crit you can reforge into instead of reforging into your caps. I don't understand why strength is ever worth gemming for before 45% unbuffed crit.


This is a very complex question. Here are my thoughts.

It's better to gem expertise instead of STR if it leads to less haste/mastery on your gear.

If you are reforging expertise into haste/mastery, that is a bad decision.

If you are leaving haste/mastery on your gear because you're already over exp cap, then gemming expertise is a bad decision.

If you are reforging expertise into crit due to gemming expertise, then it is a good decision.

Note: This is only for T14 MoP. Right now, the only truly crappy stat is haste, but in MoP it will be mastery/haste until later tiers.

Also, reforging has much more flexibility than gemming.
Edited by Collision on 9/14/2012 2:55 PM PDT
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90 Orc Warrior
17020
First, strength is barely under crit at level 90 (it beats crit for SMF before T14 if I remember Collision's post correctly; should be somewhere in this thread a few pages back). It should be somewhere around 1.03:1 crit:str I believe, maybe a bit closer to 1.05:1. Strength is still a damned good stat.

Second, again, you can't reforge into strength, and past your special caps, strength is worlds above all other stats (mastery should be about .62, hit .34, haste .30 roughly from memory).

You can, however, reforge for special caps. Looking at the BiS T14 H for TG:
http://mop.chardev.org/profile/484-Warrior_Fury_2h_T14H_2.html

You can see that almost all pieces already have crit on them. The pieces that don't usually have exp or hit on them. They do use two exp/crit gems, but it's possible to get down to 1 and have the other go Inscribed. An orc shouldn't even need that second one, which gets you more strength and should be more DPS in the end. I'd go sim it out but, frankly, I'm in the process of moving so I'm already limited in what I can get done there.

We're already using crit/hit gems in blue sockets, so we both already agree on that.

Basically, like I said:

Before, say maybe LFR gear or equivalent epics, it may be advantageous to use exp/crit gems (Crafty), yes. That is true. That shouldn't be the case, however, after you get into epics.


I was just initially wrong about the breaking point (BiS T14 H, at least for an Orc).
Edited by Samayael on 9/14/2012 2:44 PM PDT
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90 Worgen Warrior
4625
@Samayael-Thanks, that clears it up. It still seems like if using 160 crit/160 expertise frees up 160 reforgable stats from the exp cap that can be reforged into crit, that the hybrid gem is equivalent to a 320 crit gem in value, and a 320 crit gem is, as I understand it, without question worth more than a 180 strength gem or a 160 crit/80 strength gem.

@Collision, that makes perfect sense, and the hypothetical I just gave wouldn't hold up if hit/exp caps are reachable without any of the crit on gear being reforged away.
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90 Worgen Warrior
4625
For reference, if anyone wants to add their voices to it, here is the thread listing the problem with GCD usage. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6490599741?page=2#24
I personally gave up at the 3rd ticket, when it became apparent that the problem is not remotely on my end at the exact same time as it became apparent that it is not possible to convince Blizzard that my problem doesn't come from addons, poor graphics or high latency.
Here, also, is the video Landsoul posted from the beta that shows the bug hitting the arms rotation. You can see it during his 10+ minute stint with the test Abomination plenty of times-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_IG7nOwp1I&list=UU76upl_3OnaZz3h4gxIXiSQ&index=1&feature=plcp

...isn't anyone in the spreadsheet-making, simcraft-using echelon having this problem?
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90 Worgen Warrior
8560
For reference, if anyone wants to add their voices to it, here is the thread listing the problem with GCD usage. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6490599741?page=2#24
I personally gave up at the 3rd ticket, when it became apparent that the problem is not remotely on my end at the exact same time as it became apparent that it is not possible to convince Blizzard that my problem doesn't come from addons, poor graphics or high latency.
Here, also, is the video Landsoul posted from the beta that shows the bug hitting the arms rotation. You can see it during his 10+ minute stint with the test Abomination plenty of times-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_IG7nOwp1I&list=UU76upl_3OnaZz3h4gxIXiSQ&index=1&feature=plcp

...isn't anyone in the spreadsheet-making, simcraft-using echelon having this problem?


I have noticed it.

That issue has been around ever since Cataclysm came out and blizzard put in safeguards to prevent GCD-hacking. It just hasn't been quite as noticeable as we were using bloodthirst every other gcd.

Here's how they fixed gcd-hacking. (Pre-5.0, but it still works the same way.)
Client: I just pressed bloodthirst.
50 ms passes
Server: Ok, cool, got it. Here's how much damage it did.
50 ms passes
Client: Allright, showing that damage on the screen.

(2.8499 seconds pass)
Client: I think bloodthirst is ready to be used, so I'm telling you to use it.
50 ms passes
Server: Actually, no, it's still on cd for another 0.0001 seconds. You can't queue it yet.
50 ms
Client: Oh, ok. I'll try again.
50 ms (Note, because you were not spamming the ability, you have effectively lost 0.1 seconds.)
Server: Cool, got it. Here's how much damage you did.
50 ms
Client: 50k damage

What's important to note, is that you cannot queue up an ability that the server thinks is still on cooldown. So, every GCD you will lose a small amount of time doing nothing because the server will not allow you to queue up an ability that is on cooldown, and it will also not allow you to queue up raging blow unless it believes that you can use it. The only way to reduce this waiting time is to spam your keys, sending out as many requests as possible to the server.

Unfortunately, warriors are probably one of the only classes that deal with this almost every GCD, due to our cooldown-driven nature. Ret paladins may deal with this as well, but most classes are not restricted by cooldowns on rotation abilities.

Rogues can spam sinister strike all day, DKs can use obliterate as much as they want, mages can spam fireball, they are only restricted by resources, not cooldowns. The closest comparison for casters is the travel time on their spells that have procs tied to the spell hitting the boss. The proc can happen halfway through casting your next ability.

The best way to deal with it is to setup some type of power aura that alerts you whenever your bloodthirst or colossus smash crits, so that you know that you will have a charge of raging blow ready and can spam the ability before it is technically usable.

Other than that, just make sure that your latency tolerance is set as close to your average latency as possible, and to spam your keys to reduce dead-time in between abilities. Fury/arms are not specs you want to play if you feel like you may be susceptible to carpel tunnel.
Edited by Collision on 9/14/2012 4:19 PM PDT
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90 Worgen Warrior
4625
That makes a lot of sense, Collision, but it's not what I mean. What I mean is that using RB x2 between BT will swing BT for the GCD, even though since RB isn't on any cooldown, spamming it twice in a row has no reason in that instance to trigger this problem. I would sit back and accept this cripple on our dps were it not for the fact that BT-filler-filler-BT is the same rotation that arms used in 4.3 in every way but name, and a good arms warrior in 4.3 never let mortal strike get taken by the GCD. This problem is new to 5.0.4, and it cannot possibly be the way the game is intended to function. I've seen this lag stack up on strings of GCD abilities that have absolutely no cooldowns and no enabling procs. In Landsoul's video, at exactly the hour mark, you can see him activate bloodthirst, and it turns yellow, as all activated abilities do. It starts the GCD on bloodthirst, though, and if you regard the circle the GCD swings in as a clock, it gets to about 5 before the server seemingly facepalms, starts the actual 4.5 second CD on BT, and resets the GCD as though it'd just activated, burning about .7 seconds of his time-and this happens regularly, more than 50% of the time BT comes up.

I've been ranting about this a lot, but the basic gist I've trimmed it down to when describing it to anyone who'll listen is that 4.3 arms: ms-filler-filler-ms=no problem, smooth GCD usage 100% of the time. 5.0 fury: BT-filler-filler-GCD skullduggery ....%^$&@!

It seems possible, based on my idiotically simplistic perspective, that since this doesn't happen to casters who spam every GCD, that this either has to do with immediately requiring the damage of cast abilities to be reported without the cushion of travel time, or the fact that most casters don't exclusively spam instant abilities. On my demo lock, interestingly, spamming touch of chaos does not generate the same problem-I can rattle off 10 instant casts of it without seeing an iota of this lag.
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