Fury of Pandaria: PvE Fury in MoP

90 Worgen Warrior
5150
So, I have just enough VP right now for one more upgrade. I'm pretty sure I'll spend them to upgrade a weapon, since I'm pretty sure I won't be upgrading these unless my guild somehow goes on a hot streak and starts clearing stuff like crazy.

So, that being said, would I be better off upgrading my main hand to a 491, or my off hand to 487? In short, what's better? 2 weapons with 487 ilevel, or a 491 and a 483?


Seriously? 2 LFR Kil'raks? You have enough luck to make the world go 'round. :P
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90 Worgen Warrior
6475

Also, stop ignoring +60 socket bonuses when you don't have the SEP value on crit to accommodate it.


EDIT: Jesus, there it is, back on page... 37 or something, SEP values for around ilevel 480ish, with crit around 0.77 SEP.

Christ, this is confusing. So what's the deal here? Do I simply switch out all of my gems to straight Strength, or do I do Strength/Crit gems?
Edited by Patri on 11/29/2012 7:39 PM PST
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90 Worgen Warrior
8560
It's the other way around, it's not worth ignoring ALL bonuses until you are almost in BIS gear.

Example: Your boots.

Red Socket, 60 bonus.

320 Crit = 0.8 SEP * 320 Crit = 256 SEP
160 Crit + 80 STR + 60 STR = 160 * 0.8 + 80 + 60 = 268 SEP

Gemming for the bonus is better. That's not even including that you could have gemmed expertise/crit.
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90 Worgen Warrior
6475
Okay, let me see if I have this straight.

We still gem straight crit unless the socket bonus is something that, with given SEP values for gear level, equals more than crit?

Stupid question, but, if Crit is valued less than Strength, why do we gem crit at all unless to match socket bonuses?

EDIT: Wait, I think I figured out the answer to my own question - we still gem Crit even though it is valued less than Strength because we get twice as much as it per gem as we do Strength, right?
Edited by Patri on 11/29/2012 8:13 PM PST
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90 Worgen Warrior
5150
11/29/2012 08:09 PMPosted by Patri
We still gem straight crit unless the socket bonus is something that, with given SEP values for gear level, equals more than crit?

For example, you don't gem Blue / Green on Scimitar of Seven Stars, but yellow, instead.

11/29/2012 08:09 PMPosted by Patri
EDIT: Wait, I think I figured out the answer to my own question - we still gem Crit even though it is valued less than Strength because we get twice as much as it per gem as we do Strength, right?

Yes
Edited by Urve on 11/29/2012 8:59 PM PST
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90 Worgen Warrior
5150
Also, give me a damn helm already >_>. I still don't have mystically epic (lol) because I refuse to buy the Nullification Greathelm for a whopping 40 DPS increase, especially now that we need that VP again.
Edited by Urve on 11/29/2012 9:54 PM PST
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90 Worgen Warrior
0
As Jalopy mentioned, BIS first. In the long-run, valor is going to be the limiting factor in upgrading gear and wasting valor on an item that you're going to replace is a poor decision.

Of course, if you have no BIS items, and you're capped on valor, then upgrading a weapon is a good choice.


I think upgrading a weapon is still the highest DPS gain per upgrade considering how much Weapon DPS is worth.
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90 Orc Warrior
18795
11/30/2012 12:41 AMPosted by Ochron
I think upgrading a weapon is still the highest DPS gain per upgrade considering how much Weapon DPS is worth.


It undoubtedly is, but if the item isn't BIS, you're technically wasting the VP one something you'll vendor sooner or later. I was speaking in terms of efficiency.
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90 Worgen Warrior
8560
As Jalopy mentioned, BIS first. In the long-run, valor is going to be the limiting factor in upgrading gear and wasting valor on an item that you're going to replace is a poor decision.

Of course, if you have no BIS items, and you're capped on valor, then upgrading a weapon is a good choice.


I think upgrading a weapon is still the highest DPS gain per upgrade considering how much Weapon DPS is worth.


No doubt there, but the issue is that we are capped at 3k valor. If you spend 1.5k on a 489 weapon today, instead of your BIS boots/cloak/whatever, then that is 1.5k less that you can spend later when that weapon is 502.

It's a question of whether or not you want short or long term gains. We have 16 slots that can be upgraded, which would cost 24,000 valor total, or 24 weeks.

If you upgrade that weapon today, and then with some miraculous luck you get a heroic version of it next week, then you are pushing back supposed "BIS" gear by 1.5 weeks.

However, if you upgrade an item that you know you aren't going to replace until the next tier, then that valor isn't wasted.

Edit: Completely irrelevant to this, but Ochron, check your helm. I think you blindly put a crit gem in there without noting the socket bonus. :)
Edited by Collision on 11/30/2012 11:02 AM PST
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90 Worgen Warrior
8560
Ok, simcraft finally put in 5.1 trinkets.

Results:

IF YOU ARE AN ENGINEER AND SMF:
Darkmoon Card > 5.1 Trinket. by a significant margin, 400+ dps increase in most cases.

Also, super-important here: If you DO use this trinket as an engineer, use bloodbath with your springs, NOT the trinket. Use the trinket on your next colossus smash. Trinket procs/uses have always been an area where comparing SEP values is difficult, as the value of crit isn't quite as high when you only consider a 12 second window.

IF YOU ARE NOT AN ENGINEER:
<490 Ilevel: Darkmoon Card > 5.1 trinket
490-500 Ilevel: Darkmoon Card = 5.1 Trinket.
>500 Ilevel or Titans Grip: 5.1 Trinket > Darkmoon Card.

Ilevel's are educated guesses by myself after running a couple of different gear-sets through. They have an error range of + or - 4 ilevels, sim your character to find out for sure.

Updated trinket results again.
My results for SMF:

BEST:
Heroic Lei Shen's Orders
Regular Lei Shen's Orders
5.1 Trinket (500+ Ilevel and NOT Engineer)
Relic of Xuen
5.1 Trinket (<500 ilevel or Engineer)
Carbonite Carbuncle
LFR Lei Shen's Orders
WORST:

AWFUL: Coaster

TG:
BEST:
Heroic Lei Shen's Orders
5.1 Trinket (Skullrender)
Carbonite Carbuncle (Only if crits SEP is above 1.2, roughly 505+ ilevel)
Regular Lei Shen's Orders
Relic of Xuen
Carbonite Carbuncle
Chorium's Coaster
LFR Lei Shen's Orders
WORST:
Edited by Collision on 11/30/2012 1:53 PM PST
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90 Gnome Warrior
7645
I like that you still have the "WORST:" and "AWFUL:" listings there from like 20 pages ago.
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90 Worgen Warrior
5150

BEST:
Heroic Lei Shen's Orders
Regular Lei Shen's Orders
5.1 Trinket (500+ Ilevel and NOT Engineer)
Relic of Xuen
5.1 Trinket (<500 ilevel or Engineer)
Carbonite Carbuncle
LFR Lei Shen's Orders
WORST:

AWFUL: Coaster

TG:
BEST:
Heroic Lei Shen's Orders
5.1 Trinket (Skullrender)
Carbonite Carbuncle (Only if crits SEP is above 1.2, roughly 505+ ilevel)
Regular Lei Shen's Orders
Relic of Xuen
Carbonite Carbuncle
Chorium's Coaster
LFR Lei Shen's Orders
WORST:


Oh man! thanks for this, it's really been bugging me with the engineering vs. other profession combos with the on-use trink.
Edited by Urve on 11/30/2012 4:11 PM PST
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90 Worgen Warrior
17775
Can someone explain to me why so many warriors have windsong in the OH?

Even taking the RPPM system into account, I can't seem to understand why someone would choose it over double dancing steel, unless they're just very poor.

Windsong can proc 3 buffs, crit, mastery and haste.
Windsong has a 2 RPPM, and lasts 12 seconds per proc. That means that due to how RPPM works, that's a 40% uptime on it, no matter which weapon it is on.

On average, we can expect 14% uptime on each of the crit/mastery/haste buffs. However, just for the sake of argument, let's say that windsong is proccing way more than intended, and gives each buff a 20% uptime.

(Using Current SEP values for moderately geared SMF Warrior to calculate how much it is worth.)
.20*1500*.8 = 240
.20*1500*.45= 135
.20*1500*.25= 75

Which, when added up comes to 450.
(PLEASE NOTE: Logs do not back up windsong having anywhere near a 60% uptime.)

Dancing steel in the offhand using the legacy PPM system:

Dancing Steel procs 1650 every time.
Has a PPM of 2, which under the legacy system leads to 30% uptime on the offhand.

.30*1650= 495

Even giving windsong an extreme benefit of the doubt, it doesn't come out ahead of dancing steel in the off-hand.

Is there a bug that I'm not aware of that makes windsong super awesome? I've looked around multiple places on the internet, and it seriously seems like someone started a rumor about it being better than DS in the offhand, and no one took the time to dispel that rumor.

Now, I can understand that DS is super-expensive, and it's not a very big upgrade over windsong. However, it seems to be accepted that windsong is just flat out better, when it's in the realm of a 150-300 dps loss in most cases.


Whilst your contributions to the community are appreciated lets be careful to not spread misinformation.

DS on both weapons had the potential to yield very high uptimes but the reality was that unless you were really lucky most of your procs would overlap (ie refresh) as you could not have 2 x DS procs up simultaneously.

Here are logs from a full raid night for two diff warriors both equipped with 2 x DS: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-9hc2et7yim70ztxh/details/9/?enc=bosses http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-9hc2et7yim70ztxh/details/20/?enc=bosses

As you can see both averaged around 58% uptime on DS.

Compare to these logs where both warrs used DS/WS:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-s2li3f6g8wzgwzpl/details/2/?enc=bosses http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-s2li3f6g8wzgwzpl/details/7/?enc=bosses

First of all you'll notice around a 47% uptime on DS for both warrs - only 10% less!
Secondly you can and will average 20% uptime on each of Windsongs procs.

10% extra uptime on DS vs 3 x 20% WS procs? You do the math. This is why up until now WS in the offhand was the better option.

All this aside, there is a hotfix enroute to allow us to maintain 2 x DS procs simulltaneously which should finally make this the superior choice.

edit: Confirmed that this is now live. You can once again have 2 x DS up simultaneously.
Edited by Glokki on 11/30/2012 5:44 PM PST
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90 Worgen Warrior
8560


Whilst your contributions to the community are appreciated lets be careful to not spread misinformation.

DS on both weapons had the potential to yield very high uptimes but the reality was that unless you were really lucky most of your procs would overlap (ie refresh) as you could not have 2 x DS procs up simultaneously.

Here are logs from a full raid night for two diff warriors both equipped with 2 x DS: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-9hc2et7yim70ztxh/details/9/?enc=bosses http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-9hc2et7yim70ztxh/details/20/?enc=bosses

As you can see both averaged around 58% uptime on DS.

Compare to these logs where both warrs used DS/WS:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-s2li3f6g8wzgwzpl/details/2/?enc=bosses http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-s2li3f6g8wzgwzpl/details/7/?enc=bosses

First of all you'll notice around a 47% uptime on DS for both warrs - only 10% less!
Secondly you can and will average 20% uptime on each of Windsongs procs.

10% extra uptime on DS vs 3 x 20% WS procs? You do the math. This is why up until now WS in the offhand was the better option.

All this aside, there is a hotfix enroute to allow us to maintain 2 x DS procs simulltaneously which should finally make this the superior choice.

edit: Confirmed that this is now live. You can once again have 2 x DS up simultaneously.


:edit: Holy !@#$. You are right.

I just checked logs from a month ago, I never noticed that the proc was refreshing pre-5.1. I feel silly now. I would have sworn on a stack of (insert your religious book) that my buff bar showed 2x DS pre-5.1, and that the buff refreshing didn't start until 5.1.

I wasted 20k gold on DS enchants for OH. Bleh. But at least they fixed it, eventually.
Edited by Collision on 11/30/2012 8:15 PM PST
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90 Orc Warrior
18795
IF YOU ARE AN ENGINEER AND SMF:
Darkmoon Card > 5.1 Trinket. by a significant margin, 400+ dps increase in most cases.


http://i.imgur.com/V5tIJ.gif

But to double check, does this hold true for BIS gear this entire tier?

Words words words cutting down on reply size


I'm fairly certain that I noticed more than a few times that I had multiple DS buffs pre-5.1. I remember specifically when I was first setting up my aura for it, that I had two procs, and when the first wore off, the timer adjusted to the duration of the higher one.
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90 Dwarf Warrior
15995
Until emps drops the Lei Shin trinket, where does Darkmist Vortex compare with the raw str?
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90 Orc Warrior
18795
11/30/2012 09:34 PMPosted by Blaiin
Until emps drops the Lei Shin trinket, where does Darkmist Vortex compare with the raw str?


Doubtful. It's SEP comes almost solely from the static str, since haste is pretty worthless. I think even the coaster beats it by a healthy margin.
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90 Gnome Warrior
7645
My (bad, not very specific) maths shows a 2200 SEP on Darkmist, but I imagine I've done something wrong, because it's been drilled into me the haste is simply the worst.

6121 Haste times it's .21 SEP scaling (based on my own sims) is still up in the thousands, plus the flat Str SEP.

(I don't have Simcraft for 5.1 though, so I can't say for certain).
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90 Orc Warrior
18795
You might be forgetting to fully math it out.

Haste's SEP is something AIDS like .21, as you said, and the DMV has an uptime of 20% or so.

6121 * .2 = 1224 (haste on proc * 20% uptime = 1224 average haste)
1224 * .21 = 257 (1224 average haste * 0.21 = 257 SEP)

So 257 SEP from the proc (on average), plus 1021 strength, for a total SEP of 1,278, probably far worse than any other trinket Collision has listed in his BIS list.

Math might be a bit off since it's like, 6AM.
Edited by Jalopy on 12/1/2012 6:01 AM PST
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