Demonology and Grimoire of Sacrifice

86 Orc Warlock
0
So i realized that your pet generates a considerable amount of demonic fury. Seeing as how this is the resource we use to do most of our damage because of metamorphosis, using grimoire of sacrifice won't be a damage increase over the other options. I don't have hard numbers yet, but i'm betting that the 30% extra damage that we get in demonology spec isn't enough to make up for not generating that demonic fury and not having a pet.

i only bring this up as blizzard has stated that they don't want talent choices to be forced ie, take this talent or do less damage.

What does everyone else think?
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90 Dwarf Warlock
8320
To add to what you've said, I don't think it compensates for the extra pet damage we get from the demonology mastery either, and it already seems like a poor choice if paired with soul link. Come to think of it, the other two options in its tier are pet-oriented and being pet-oriented is a focal point in demonology. I must be missing something here though considering it was introduced as a demonology talent some time ago... didn't actually seem to fit the bill then either.

I still like this talent a lot, so I hope I'll be able to work it into my spec freely. It doesn't seem like that's the case currently.

As a side note, we get pursuit and seduction from it which, besides not making too much sense to me, is hilarious!
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90 Human Warlock
0
ya i mean any specc can choose any grimoire, but first off demonology is about, well DEMONS. The felguard has been my favorite pet of all time and i wouldnt kill him for extra damage. PLus his bladestorm and yes the extra dps and demon fury.

it's like des can choose improved pets, but you would be better killing them for the buff. IMO aff and des sac the pet, demon always get the wrathguard.
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90 Orc Warlock
8565
Grim of service is the way to go. Especially in pvp. A warlock that can stun locklike a rogue? You don't even need shadowfury, initial demon charge, axe toss, thenfelguard service. Along with blood fear and mortal coil.....YUM
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90 Human Warlock
0
my only issue with service is the cooldown. having a passive improved pet from felguard> wrath succubus> shiva and the pets do 20% extra dps, fan of that myself.
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90 Orc Warlock
8565
This is why I love the patch. People hate on it, but everyone can have their own playstyle
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100 Orc Warlock
15625
I haven't been playing demo, and don't remember from the PTR, but is the demo sacrifice buff for all damage, or only nukes (i.e. not dots or hellfire, etc.)?

If it is for all damage, it could actually be the best on multi target fights that have the targets spread out, such as Warmaster or Ascendant Council.

EDIT: Just looked at the tooltip, and it doesn't include DoTs. This means it would actualy be a loss compared to Supremacy/Service for multi-target, as the extra fury generation from these will benefit your DoTs, whereas GrimSac will not.
Edited by Vreivai on 8/30/2012 1:49 PM PDT
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90 Dwarf Warlock
8320
For the demonologist, Grimoire of Sacrifice might actually be better treated as a situational kind of thing. Since it procs Demonic Rebirth, it could be used temporarily (12-20 sec) with Metamorphosis and some stacks of Molten Core for some serious firepower before instantly resummoning the sac'd pet.

I'd hope that it being used like this wouldn't fall flat when compared dps-wise to the 20 sec. of Grimoire of Service. Otherwise, I do hope that it is made a little more spec versatile within the new [and most awesome] talent system.
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90 Human Warlock
0
^^ perhaps but as ive said before to others, whole point of demon is to use demons. Also the biggest issue people tend to forget is mastery. Being mastery benefits demon form AND the demons dps, the demons dps will be a big loss with sac. I havent tried demon since i been using des,

but i know ive had my felpup bite for over 60k at times, also on movement fights u can always rely on your pet to be consistently doing dps while your moving and spamming felflame for extra dps, which btw we can't do now.
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85 Undead Warlock
6345
08/31/2012 07:45 PMPosted by Avime
mastery benefits demon form AND the demons dps
also caster form benefits from mastery
Edited by Dochaelian on 8/31/2012 8:54 PM PDT
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90 Human Warlock
6130
I noticed my touch of chaos hitting lower than my shadowbolts but i guess the amount of times i can cast it still makes it better.
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86 Orc Warlock
0
08/31/2012 07:45 PMPosted by Avime
^^ perhaps but as ive said before to others, whole point of demon is to use demons. Also the biggest issue people tend to forget is mastery. Being mastery benefits demon form AND the demons dps, the demons dps will be a big loss with sac.


I disagree that it should be forced to have a pet out. the whole point of the talent system is to allow you to choose any of the 3 talents according to your playstyle. My play style happens to be not using a demon and sacrificing it for increased personal damage. With mastery scaling the demon's damage, it should also increase the scale of your damage if you get the glyph of sacrifice.

Hunter's had a tier like this before. They could get arrows that did a nature dot, but it forced anyone who was PVE to get that talent as the damage was lower without it. Sacrifice needs to grant you increased fury generation as well as increasing the rate at which mastery increases damage.
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90 Human Warlock
0
Well yes and no. I understand in theory that the damage should scale with the sac grimoire but it doesn't as of right now. Sac gives 30% dmg increases regardless your mastery. So in a sense say for instance your pet powered up via mastery was doing XXX damage, the sac grimoire is going to cap it at 30%.

And yes you could say you want to choose talents based on YOUR playstyle, however an aff lock could dump points into crit, but would be smarter to put more into haste. IMO the talents are there to help more giving some speccs what others wanted.

case in point an aff lock probably wanted shadowfury but could never have it, now they can. But say for instance a holy paladin, you can pick a talent that is obviously catered toward ret, but your would be hurting yourself instead of choosing the talent made for holy.

and still some people say well beast mastery hunters it's unfair they get special pets, say the t rex. well the specc is called BEAST mastery. Also only one specc out of all 3 lock specc gets the felguard, i think its a waste to grab a specc that has a tool such as him and not use it.
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90 Human Warlock
3800
[quote="64699656206"]I disagree that it should be forced to have a pet out. t/quote]

You don't want to use demons in the demonology pet.

Right.
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90 Dwarf Warlock
8320
08/31/2012 07:45 PMPosted by Avime
^^ perhaps but as ive said before to others, whole point of demon is to use demons.


It's by far the most pet-oriented spec for warlocks, but I'm with the OP about keeping talent choices free of that kind of consideration. It was the intention after all. I get what you mean though: seems kind of lousy to basically go pro-pet and then sac the sucker. Still, an ability to do just that (Demonic Sacrifice) was first introduced within the demo talent tree, so you'd actually think demo and GoSac would somehow work well enough together.

08/30/2012 11:18 AMPosted by Wayvak
and it already seems like a poor choice if paired with soul link


I said that and didn't even realize you got extra hp by using the two - neat.
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85 Blood Elf Mage
6015
[quote="64699656206"]I disagree that it should be forced to have a pet out. t/quote]

You don't want to use demons in the demonology pet.

Right.


Oh, I must have missed the disclaimer stating "DEMO = PET SPEC."

In fact, with 5.0, demo has become more about gaining "demonic" abilities. So, no, I don't necessarily want to use demons in my demo spec.
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90 Human Mage
10195
I think Demonology without a pet would be cool, and I really hope they make GoSac viable.

Demonology, to me, is more about demon form. Not necessarily having a demon pet.

Then again, you may as well color me jaded from playing a hunter for 5 years, back when pets were a micromanagement nightmare. I was overcome with absolute joy when I saw that they were adding demon sac back.
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
13795
yeah i noticed the same drop in dps like you have the time missed out in demon form is where the fault lies and the other talent with beefed up pets adds more DF per swing (of course im refering to wrathguard) and more DF means more time in demon form another thing ive considered is the new demon soul cd worth using or is it better just to keep the passive buff going because i cant really see a major difference ive used it in a 1 shot macro on adds of course and ive tried without it but though it gives you the burst quality for say a bloodlust phase but not really worth using mid boss fight what do yall think? let me know
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88 Blood Elf Warlock
4585
Thought i add to the debate... none of you mentioned the wild imp option along with Glyph of demon hunting... makes it somewhat attractive... Damage reduction coupled with soul link, 30% more damage seems to me like good boost. Will definitely test it out. And for all those disclaimers that say demonology is about having a demon pet, i will kindly say the next funnier step is being one, or at least partially :) Will test that out and see how I do with the killing. Keep in mind I play mostly PVE.
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90 Human Warlock
10545
Look at the date of the previous post so you don't necro old threads.

=D
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