Successfully moving from 10s to 25s

90 Tauren Paladin
10645
Hello raid leaders and guild leaders.

<Serious> is moving from 10 man to 25 man come MOP. We currently have enough raiders with about 20 extra. And i know that since Medivh has (currently) zero 25man horde guilds i suspect that we will be recruiting very fast.

The main reason is no one of the progression guilds wants to run it. A few start and then it dies down.

Why i am posting here.

I am asking you guys what did you do to move from tens to 25s and were you successful? Do you have some guidelines or guild structure you recommend.

What we are doinng.

1. We are promoting "leads" to ensure that peeps specialize on their knowledge of class mechanics and resposibilities during a boss fight. So melee lead, ranged, heals and tank.

2. We are Loot council of 3 with 10 man and will be 6 or 8, depending, for the 25. We have been blesssed with very few and very minor loot issues in guild..mainly from people that ...are not stable raiders anyway.

3. Had discussions with raiders and guildies to determine if everyone wants to do this. everyone is really looking forward to it and they are excited about the challenge.

TBH My biggest concern for me is personal. I am raid lead, GM, and Main tank. i dont want to eventually get burned out. So,i guess, my fear is that i wont get the right "leads" to share the responsibility and the work to maintain a 25 man raiding guild. I do realize that 25s can take on a life of their own once they are "established" and will basically run itself. But until then..

I know that a big killer of 25mans is progression. If the 25 man raider is stuck on 3rd boss but a 10 is recruiting him and they are on 5th boss...... So guild progression will be a big factor.

Would appreciate any stories of advice for moving from 10 man raiding guild, to a 25 man raiding guild. Help me do it right please. Too many i have seen were not successful.

Jake
Edited by Jakethetank on 8/25/2012 9:09 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Priest
17825
I don't really have any advice; we intentionally switched to 10s in Cata from a 25 in Wrath, and you couldn't pay me to go back to 25man raiding. I'm definitely not trying to discourage you; I'd LOVE to see Medivh have a 25man raiding guild again, Horde or Alliance, since neither faction has one anymore. But having lead both a 25man and a 10man, the sheer difference - for me - in the amount of stress and potential issues between the two is like night and day. 25man raiding felt like another job for me in Wrath; I really didn't enjoy it because I spent most of my raid time dealing with other people instead of focusing on the raid. With 10man raiding, I really, truly enjoy raiding again. But these are my experiences. I highly encourage you to go for it if that's what you and your guild really want. 25s ARE rewarding; sometimes I forget that I did have fun hanging out with 24 of my friends for 9 hours a week, and it can make the guild feel more unified than a few 10man teams do.

I wish you the best of luck!
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85 Goblin Warlock
10780
My guild made this switch at the beginning of Dragon Soul (in addition to server transferring and faction changing).

Your first hurdle will be recruiting enough people to have 25 in the raid. It sounds like you've already passed that point, but this is probably the easiest step in the process.

Next is, as you've guessed, the progression monster. People may be a bit more forgiving at the beginning of a new expansion, but lack of rapid progress will be hugely detrimental to your ranks before the guild is stabilized. This is something my guild went through due to hemorrhaging raiders after clearing 8/8N. Our heroic progress wasn't fast enough for some people, and we lost raiders. This set us back about two months while we rebuilt (though we did limp along and get 5/8H while rebuilding). The lesson here is be prepared. What's your plan when you don't have 25 people log on? You might be able to pug a couple people, but what if you only have 18 log on? Are you going to pug seven slots, or are you going to short man it? Call raid entirely?

My biggest word of caution, however, is regarding guild promotions. Having class leads is definitely a good thing. My guild has them, but never rush into a promotion. The absolute worst thing you can do for your guild when making a change of this magnitude is promote someone to a position of authority (class lead, officer, etc.) who will use that power to undermine what you're trying to build. I made that mistake and it almost destroyed us. Thankfully, I was able to catch it quickly, before any damage was actually done, and remove the offending officer. This will mean more work for you during the most difficult part of this transition, but believe me, it is far better in the long run to stress yourself out temporarily while you carefully consider officer/CL candidates than to promote someone rashly and have it blow up in your face.

My guild also uses loot council (and had three on it during our 10m days!), so I have some words of wisdom in that regard, too: keep an odd number on your council. This will prevent ties from being an issue. Also, and this is my personal opinion, eight is way too many officers for a 25m guild. I limit my guild to four officers, though I MAY consider a fifth if the right person comes along. My main objection to a fifth would be that it puts six on the loot council, and even numbers are bad, mmmkay?

I was also GM and RL when I started expanding. I'd been the RL ever since starting the guild, but discovered that raid leading a 25m while DPSing was impacting my performance more than I'd like. So I slowly transitioned my raid leading duties to two of the other officers over the course of the tier. I'm doing the final push now of putting group composition and pre-fight assignments into my officer's hands so that when MoP launches, I'll be completely free of raid leading. Though none of this is probably relevant to a tank. I've always found raid leading as a tank or healer to be way easier than as a DPS for most fights. The only fight I couldn't effectively lead in Cataclysm while healing was heroic spine, and there is no fight this expansion that I've had any trouble leading while tanking.

Anyway, stories from a GM who did the 10m -> 25m transition on hard mode! Feel free to contact me in game if you have anything you'd like to talk about.
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90 Tauren Paladin
10645
Thank you both for responding so quickly.

@sol allways nice to have your advice since your on medivh with me :)

@Kamia

i didnt think about that "odd number" for loot council i should have thank you so it will probably be 5.

As for promotions i agree, im one of those gms that have no issues with demoting as well and in my experience, not demoting someone is a mistake guilds make often.

Another question.

Because we are starting on normals we could concievably start on 25s then move to 10s later in the week, should we start this way to "see how it goes"?

My feelings on that is that while that may be a great way to get your foot in the door..i dont want guildies to "stop trying" because "we are going to do it on 10s anyway"

What do you guys think?

jake
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85 Goblin Warlock
10780
It's better to be slow and sure of your promotions than have to demote someone because they didn't work out. Demotions, especially from a rank like officer, can be huge drama bombs if not handled extremely carefully.

Because we are starting on normals we could concievably start on 25s then move to 10s later in the week, should we start this way to "see how it goes"?

That is possible, but you'd run a pretty high risk of alienating the 15+ people who don't get picked to be in the 10m progression group, in addition to the risks you've already thought of.
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90 Human Paladin
7575
Personally, I wouldn't try to switch to 25 man going in to MoP. This is mainly because you will already have your work cut out for you just trying to make a smooth transition into the new expansion.

Until you are sure you have a good group of about 28-30 raiders, I would not change to 25 man. Maybe try running two 10 man groups until you are sure you got a solid 25 man team. Don't try and rush it and end up having to carry bad players or pug a lot. That will just create a lot of drama.
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90 Draenei Priest
17825
08/25/2012 09:50 PMPosted by Jakethetank
@sol allways nice to have your advice since your on medivh with me :)


Aww thanks. Feel free to realID me if you want, Caersai@gmail.com, if you ever wanted to chat about anything. As an aside, my guild and Supremacy (Horde) have this kinda sister-guild thing going on (we have characters in each other's guilds but the leadership is different) and they have a lot of knowledgeable, helpful, and just downright nice people there.
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90 Tauren Paladin
10645
08/26/2012 04:51 AMPosted by Solaeris
@sol allways nice to have your advice since your on medivh with me :)


Aww thanks. Feel free to realID me if you want, Caersai@gmail.com, if you ever wanted to chat about anything. As an aside, my guild and Supremacy (Horde) have this kinda sister-guild thing going on (we have characters in each other's guilds but the leadership is different) and they have a lot of knowledgeable, helpful, and just downright nice people there.


I know a lot in supremacy. Outstanding people and outstanding raiders all. :)
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85 Dwarf Paladin
6780
In addition to the advice above:

2. We are Loot council of 3 with 10 man and will be 6 or 8, depending, for the 25. We have been blesssed with very few and very minor loot issues in guild..mainly from people that ...are not stable raiders anyway.

Some loot councils work by giving the best pieces to the best players, or BiS, or attendance, or some combination. In a 10 man mentally keeping track of that can work, in a 25 man if your loot council is going by memory on some things, it would help if they have a photographic memory. So have some record keeping on this if you can to help.

Down time can be the raid killer, with 2.5 more people in a 25 man, get REALLY good at fast swap in and outs. Waiting for one person for 5 min AFK in a 10 man is not good, take that times 2.5 more frequency because of more people and it gets worse. Have two locks that can summon, have a mage ready to port people out, be quick on swaps.

More people doing more messages in raid chat can get messy. Consider creating one or more channels to help. We have a DPS channel so people can post Skada/Recount numbers. You might also want a channel for other functions. Don't make a lot of channels, as it gets messy, but keep the channel where the raid leaders do more of the discussion.

Think about what your going to do the times when your short 25 people but have enough to do one or two 10 mans. It sill probably happen. Remember if you do that on heroic or have done heroics, you can swap. Also if you break down to 10 mans, someone is going to feel shorted, and it will become a temptation to take the best 10 to clear content, which can lead to some people considering wanting to use those best people to do 10. Basically you need to decide if your going to be a 25 man raid guild, or a guild that does raiding on 25 and/or 10 man.

As for officers, our GM set up something very interesting. Officer of the month. It gives people a chance to be involved, and to try out people who might be good at being an officer but not making a full 'your an officer now' commitment to it.
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90 Tauren Paladin
10645


Some loot councils work by giving the best pieces to the best players, or BiS, or attendance, or some combination. In a 10 man mentally keeping track of that can work, in a 25 man if your loot council is going by memory on some things, it would help if they have a photographic memory. So have some record keeping on this if you can to help.


Definately planned on doing that. We are doing a Spreadsheet to track all of that.



Down time can be the raid killer, with 2.5 more people in a 25 man, get REALLY good at fast swap in and outs. Waiting for one person for 5 min AFK in a 10 man is not good, take that times 2.5 more frequency because of more people and it gets worse. Have two locks that can summon, have a mage ready to port people out, be quick on swaps.

More people doing more messages in raid chat can get messy. Consider creating one or more channels to help. We have a DPS channel so people can post Skada/Recount numbers. You might also want a channel for other functions. Don't make a lot of channels, as it gets messy, but keep the channel where the raid leaders do more of the discussion.


Yeah we are good at that as tens..but i can see it getting out of hand in 25s..thank you wil be sure and impliment some guidlines for raid afks



Think about what your going to do the times when your short 25 people but have enough to do one or two 10 mans. It sill probably happen. Remember if you do that on heroic or have done heroics, you can swap. Also if you break down to 10 mans, someone is going to feel shorted, and it will become a temptation to take the best 10 to clear content, which can lead to some people considering wanting to use those best people to do 10. Basically you need to decide if your going to be a 25 man raid guild, or a guild that does raiding on 25 and/or 10 man.


See this one is tough for me. I want to raid..i just dont see me calling it in vaults, for instance, becuase 3 people didnt show. Ill find someone else that will show and that will raid. Hopefully from guild. *crosses fingers lol

Personally, I wouldn't try to switch to 25 man going in to MoP. This is mainly because you will already have your work cut out for you just trying to make a smooth transition into the new expansion.

Until you are sure you have a good group of about 28-30 raiders, I would not change to 25 man. Maybe try running two 10 man groups until you are sure you got a solid 25 man team. Don't try and rush it and end up having to carry bad players or pug a lot. That will just create a lot of drama.


Is there a better time to go to 25s from ten than when we have 40 some raiders and a new raid is coming out? Dont get me wrong. i am worried and i am concerned that we wont hav ethe management structure for 25s especially since its up to me to make it, but what i do have is a lot of raiders that want this and am willing to work to get it.

Jake
Edited by Jakethetank on 8/28/2012 11:34 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Paladin
10645
I bring this back up cause we have a few more questions.

1. Whats a good loot council addon? We tried Loot council lite but it doesnt seem to want to work.

2. Mount for 25 man distribution. They seem to be even more of an issue in 25s. When it dropped in a ten we did /roll and or "its your turn now" . With only one dropping in 25s and how fluid the particular boss attendance will be ...is it better to loot council those as well?

Jake
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90 Orc Warrior
19130
2. Mount for 25 man distribution. They seem to be even more of an issue in 25s. When it dropped in a ten we did /roll and or "its your turn now" . With only one dropping in 25s and how fluid the particular boss attendance will be ...is it better to loot council those as well?


/roll for raider rank and up (no trials can win)

Im suprised to hear good feedback for the loot council. In my experience loot council sucks, in 25m its horrid.


I love loot council... I run 25s and if you show favoritism on loot council it will alienate your raiders. Ours is performance / attendance / fails
Edited by Maliciouskil on 9/21/2012 11:31 AM PDT
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4 Blood Elf Warlock
0
We tried 25's, but many members had computer performance issues with 25's.

So two 10's it was.
And an Alt-Run to scoop up the rest.
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90 Troll Shaman
13725
I've never seen a guild successfully go from 10 to 25, so all I can do here is point out some problems I've seen that made it fail.

In BC I was in a guild where there were 3 KZ teams that merged for 25-man raids. The problem there was that two of the teams felt competitive with each other because one breezed through KZ while the other struggled, so it was felt that one was the "A team". The resentment made them not want to play together and one of the 10-man teams eventually left to form their own guild. Both guilds ended up forming their own 25-mans separately, but this was in BC where 25-man raiding was the only way to progress. Today they would probably both have kept raiding 10-man.

In Wrath I was in a successful 10-man guild. Some of the members wanted to move up to 25, but others were happy with things as they were. The officers went forward with recruiting for 25-man, but without having everyone on board with that goal, things fell apart quick after that.

So my two questions would be these: Do you have any internal tensions in the guild that could explode if previously separate raid groups are merged? And do all of your raiders WANT to raid 25-man or are some of them happier with the way things are now?
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90 Tauren Paladin
10645

So my two questions would be these: Do you have any internal tensions in the guild that could explode if previously separate raid groups are merged? And do all of your raiders WANT to raid 25-man or are some of them happier with the way things are now?


Most guilds do not have raid groups set up like i do. Most guilds have 2 or more seperate distinct raid groups with the goal that they are self supportive, no raider swapping, seperation of mats and bank tabs and so on...

I set mine up like the majors and the minors. Raiders woulds start in the minors with the goal to be moved up to the majors. Invariably one group out progresses another and this not only a way to capitalize on that as well as promote it. It gave everyone the ability to run with experienced players and get gear and promoted improving your skills so u can do it more often.

What it did is help me create 45 some odd raiders that is in a guild that raids often, every night except friday, while giving them the ability to NOT run if they dont want, as long as they do regularly run.

So no, there are no seperate groups to worry about rifts starting.

As for the other, yes the guild does want 25. In wrath, we were both a 10 and 25 and progessed 3 or 4 heroic ICC, basically middle of the pack. At beggining of cata, we were in the top ten raiding guilds progression wise, now we are in top 5 on the horde side.

At the end of cata, we lost on medivh server all the 25 man guilds. There are none left on horde or ally side. Since we are all raiders, we all want to fill that potential slot. It would both be a blast for us and only help the server as well as being the next natural step to our progression as a guild.

I just came to you guys, to make sure i do it right. :)

Jake
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90 Tauren Paladin
10645
I wanted to thank everyone and to let you guys know how it is going so far for us.

On the tuesday after MV LFR was released we did a 25 LFR, there was actually only about 12 or so guildies in the run...but it was "a guild run"

After that we ran thur a 25 with about half guildies and half pugs. I wanted to get us early on the server known as a 25. I felt that if we "ran anyway" even if we had to pug, it would further us into the 25man raiding guild scene. Then every tue and thur after that, slowlly having a bit more guildies in the run and less puggs..we continued to grind and learn the first boss.

Well stone guard was fun on 25man. And difficult. For those of you that are 6/6 25 man already...wow..just wow. We have raided five differant 25 man runs since release in normal MV, 3 hours each, and just got 25 man stone guard down last nite. Honestly, our biggest issue was that while we had the tanks and healers,..we are still short a few dps and have to pug and saw the enrage timers waaaay too many times :/

Although we have the bodies in guild we are short 3 to 5 dps that is raid geared, and on.

On last monday, we made a mistake, or i should say I made a mistake, we ran ten because peeps wanted to raid and we had 14 on...or so. Well, hour and a half in we 1 shot the dogs, took us 3 to do feng, even though none of us did normal, and we spent some time on the troll boss. I believe we would have gotten him as well..but peeps have to log early on a monday.

For those of you that do 25s, you are right...10s are easy. We did in an hour and half what we were, so far, unable to do in the 25. The mistake was actually defaulting to ten. We had people in guild complaing, it was minor but it was complaining, about us doing the ten, and "how we should do that as well". It was my fear coming up, that if we did tens..people would ...give up, knowing that a ten is a walk and will be done on mondays. At that point i decided that we will not be running tens anymore.

My officers have been outstanding and very supportive, i have been gently...persistant about pushing people to gear and to raid and they have helped me to not be too pushy lol.
The class leads are working working well, allowing me to work on strats and raid leading and less on individual performance which they are handling.

Having said all of that, i am very proud of us, we had some very good pulls on feng, 3rd phase a couple of times and am confident we will get him next raid nite. The raid group as a whole is really starting to come together well and staying positive even though we are not THE top progressed guild on horde side. We have had consistantly more guild raiders each nite and are finally a full guild run come next tuesday. Every raid nite we get a little better, the guild gets a little more used to how the fights work on 25 and we are having fun, even though we are not 6/6 before heart and terrace is released lol.

progression

http://www.guildox.com/go/g.asp?a=1&r=Medivh-US

Jake
Edited by Jakethetank on 10/26/2012 12:11 PM PDT
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