Prot Warriors - Initial Thoughts

90 Dwarf Warrior
12790
If I don't think about the design, I enjoy Protection.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
19050
I see some very big issues with vengeance atm... just did a Heroic Firelands mount run and on Heroic Baleroc I did 110k dps as a prot warrior and 2nd on healing through use of shield barrier scaling with AP.

Any future fights with these same mechanics could lead to some very broken tank damage.

Didn't have logs running but our resto druid was streaming on twitch:
http://www.twitch.tv/beefaleaf24/b/330650738

Fast forward to the 1h12min mark, he has healing up on recount for most of the fight but switching to dmg meter at the end.
Edited by Billet on 8/31/2012 9:34 PM PDT
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90 Human Warrior
14340
Please make Deep Wounds applied via Thunder Clap tick on application, like Rend used to.

Thanks.

The only significant issue I will have with this new resource management system is that you will feel gimped on fights where you have to stop dealing damage at certain points. For example, on Omnitron where the Trons put their shields up. Or on Spine where you have to stop damage on the Amalgamation prior to first lift while waiting for residue to build.

And soon to be on Spirit Kings heroic.
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85 Night Elf Warrior
15680
I see some very big issues with vengeance atm... just did a Heroic Firelands mount run and on Heroic Baleroc I did 110k dps as a prot warrior and 2nd on healing through use of shield barrier scaling with AP.

Any future fights with these same mechanics could lead to some very broken tank damage.

Didn't have logs running but our resto druid was streaming on twitch:
http://www.twitch.tv/beefaleaf24/b/330650738

Fast forward to the 1h12min mark, he has healing up on recount for most of the fight but switching to dmg meter at the end.


I was doing wreck level damage for all of HFL25 and HDS25 this week (171k on baleroc, 52.5k on domo, 49k on ultrax, etc.)
( http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-h7tgtrg71e6rv2c3/ )
Vengeance has been balanced for 90, and is rather absurd at 85.

Frankly, the hilarious level of damage is the only redeeming quality of this version of prot to me.

The only significant issue I will have with this new resource management system is that you will feel gimped on fights where you have to stop dealing damage at certain points. For example, on Omnitron where the Trons put their shields up. Or on Spine where you have to stop damage on the Amalgamation prior to first lift while waiting for residue to build.


That's the same issue DKs/Druids have always had. Now they'll just have to design with it in mind for every encounter... Although given their track record, we'll probably see some ridiculousness because of it for a couple tiers.
Edited by Dellingr on 9/1/2012 4:48 AM PDT
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85 Orc Warrior
6775
I'm not a fan of the new active mitigation style at all (maybe because I enjoyed tanks being the "passive" playstyle where you just stand there LOL) but really it's not that bad. I do kind of like having to think "Do I block or barrier?" depending on the ability the boss is going to use, but it still feels weird during the periods where I don't have anything up, probably because I'm so used to just using Block on cooldown in Cata.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
8355
I have a question and perhaps its been tossed around before, I haven't payed that much attention to ghost and others but this latest tick / tock confirms a theory I've had brewing.

Think about this:

How much keystroke traffic do you think the current design generates versus the previous model?

Is it less, more or equal?

I'm talking about the amount of data (keystrokes are data) that has to be sent back to server for a given unit of time.

It is my theory that my fun factor in wow is being trampled by squeezing of the all mighty dollar. Yep, what has to be the single most expensive item that blizzards parent company has to pay for? I bet it isn't salary. I bet its paying for the hundreds of OC12 data pipes (or whatever they call them nowadays).

When I first started playing, I used to setup an autohotkey macro to spam my fury attack keys. I had amazing dps. Can you imagine the data traffic they had to handle with millions of users spamming keystrokes back to their servers?

Now todays tanking model (as an example) requires very few keystrokes per unit of time. Sure I can still spam the key but I'm being trained that spamming doesn't help like it did.

So if it isn't apparent, I dislike the current model, and I've spent lots of time on the dummy playing around trying to find the right balance of hit and expertise to keep from getting rage starved. I've gone right into a heroic blackthorn attempt and because my rage happened to be down I got OWNED within a 3 second window. Not fun!

What do you think?
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88 Tauren Warrior
10955
08/31/2012 06:48 PMPosted by Dellingr
Frenetic gameplay with fast paced resource management (No, you didn't always press Heroic Strike if you were paying attention) was what drew me to the class. The current implementation has neither.


I really enjoyed the furious button mashy play of the prot warrior. I intend to keep on tanking on either this toon or my druid. But I do have a paladin ... may be time to dust her off and see how that feels.
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90 Human Warrior
15730
I'm having issues with AE threat.

I also feel the new warrior model is so clunky its like the old pally. I used to hate playing a pally.

Now I feel, tanking on my druid is the way a warrior should be. Skip TC and make cleave an ability that gives rage and hits more targets to put us on par with the other tanks.

We warriors have come a long way from our vanilla/ bc days and frankly I feel its the wrong direction.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
19050
I'm having issues with AE threat.

I also feel the new warrior model is so clunky its like the old pally. I used to hate playing a pally.

Now I feel, tanking on my druid is the way a warrior should be. Skip TC and make cleave an ability that gives rage and hits more targets to put us on par with the other tanks.

We warriors have come a long way from our vanilla/ bc days and frankly I feel its the wrong direction.


If you are having AE issues just glyph heroic leap and use that fill in the gaps, works wonders. The only time I'm even remotely having any sort of threat issues is maybe the first 3-4 seconds of a boss fight before vengeance goes crazy. Pop reck and dump all your rage into HS to counter that. Once vengeance is stacked its gg.

Also healers got a decent healing buff so trying to keep shield block up as much as possible isn't really mandatory right now. I'm sure things will feel better by level 90 when they balance out better and people have had time to adjust to the system.

On another note it almost feels like shield barrier takes the cake over shield block once the absurd vengeance levels kick in on some fights. I'd be curious to see some math on that though.

For shield block maybe dropping the block chance on use from 100% down to say 75% and reducing the rage to 45 would feel better for some people. Give you more room to use heroic strikes outside of ult procs and room to weave barriers between blocks. Also gives us a mastery soft cap to shoot for.
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90 Troll Warrior
16215
09/01/2012 07:13 AMPosted by Clasmir
It is my theory that my fun factor in wow is being trampled by squeezing of the all mighty dollar. Yep, what has to be the single most expensive item that blizzards parent company has to pay for? I bet it isn't salary. I bet its paying for the hundreds of OC12 data pipes (or whatever they call them nowadays).

I'll get right on making you your tinfoil hat.
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90 Human Warrior
11680
I don't have threat issues and while rage generation does feel a little low, I don't have survivability issues. I don't even have a real problem with Active Mitigation. Forcing tanks to pay a little more attention to their own survival than they did before isn't a bad idea. I'm not crazy about it, but I'll chalk it up to just getting used to changes.

I do however agree with many posters in this thread and have a real issue with the play-style of a Protection Warrior at this point. It doesn't flow at all. Sometimes it feels like you're playing a slow game of whack-a-mole with Rev/HS. Other times you're just sitting and waiting for CDs while hitting a completely un-fun Devastate because SB or Sbar isn't necessary at the moment and using HS/Cleave would dump the rage you just spent 12-15 seconds trying to build up.

I enjoyed the previous play-style as Dellingr said "frenetic game play with fast paced resource management." They need to keep that high mobility, high action warrior tank and then weave in AM into that model. Not change everything for AM. In many ways it's gone from being an active tank to a passive tank who just pools rage for active mitigation. Personally, not my idea of fun. I may bench my warrior for MOP and try a different tanking class.
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90 Dwarf Warrior
14780
I enjoyed the previous play-style as Dellingr said "frenetic game play with fast paced resource management." They need to keep that high mobility, high action warrior tank and then weave in AM into that model. Not change everything for AM. In many ways it's gone from being an active tank to a passive tank who just pools rage for active mitigation. Personally, not my idea of fun. I may bench my warrior for MOP and try a different tanking class.


As a 7-year Warrior tank, this is how I feel. I wouldn't bench my Warrior for it, but I will gladly voice my disappointment.

I like fast play. It's why I enjoy FPS games (I did years of competitive CS), it's why I enjoy arena (where games can change on a dime), and it's why I haven't main-swapped in over 5 years since I swapped from Rogue to Warrior. Sitting around waiting for rage to fill so I have enough to do Shield Block/Shield Barrier is not fast-paced and is not fun. Feeling punished for hitting Heroic Strike outside of Ultimatum procs is not fun.

Active Mitigation is fine and I even like the idea of tanks being more in control of their survivability - you took steps toward that in Wrath by giving tanks their own defensive cooldowns that are up more often, and you're taking it even further in MoP. Just make it flow within the system that Warriors have known and loved for years. Some rage gain on damage intake, and possibly a bit on our white damage, would go a long way to this and wouldn't be a problem.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
8355
I don't have threat issues and while rage generation does feel a little low, I don't have survivability issues. I don't even have a real problem with Active Mitigation. Forcing tanks to pay a little more attention to their own survival than they did before isn't a bad idea. I'm not crazy about it, but I'll chalk it up to just getting used to changes.


I took a look at your toon's history. Does the above theory hold water with the toughest DS heroic fights that we can do right now? I don't show that you've completed any.

I'd really be interested in feedback from people who have tried any of the tougher heroic fights (for a tank). For me, after my own heroic blackthorn spanking I realized I needed to increase my hit and expertise a bit more, and I need to be spamming shield barrier as much as I can given vengeance.

Token nod to the future. Yeah - I know that we are going to get new content, new levels and the tunning will be different, it doesn't change the fact that right now this isn't that much fun.

I'm pretty sure they will fix these issues or they are (hopefully) a non issue at 90. /crossfingers
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90 Human Warrior
11680
I took a look at your toon's history. Does the above theory hold water with the toughest DS heroic fights that we can do right now? I don't show that you've completed any.


My raid group stopped raiding in December so Heroic Morchok was the highest progression I've seen. Sorry that I can't speak to survivability in later Heroic DS encounters.

I have however been running in the MOP beta pretty extensively. My assessment in my paragraph that you quoted comes from that experience.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
19050
09/01/2012 02:15 PMPosted by Haines
I enjoyed the previous play-style as Dellingr said "frenetic game play with fast paced resource management." They need to keep that high mobility, high action warrior tank and then weave in AM into that model. Not change everything for AM. In many ways it's gone from being an active tank to a passive tank who just pools rage for active mitigation. Personally, not my idea of fun. I may bench my warrior for MOP and try a different tanking class.


As a 7-year Warrior tank, this is how I feel. I wouldn't bench my Warrior for it, but I will gladly voice my disappointment.

I like fast play. It's why I enjoy FPS games (I did years of competitive CS), it's why I enjoy arena (where games can change on a dime), and it's why I haven't main-swapped in over 5 years since I swapped from Rogue to Warrior. Sitting around waiting for rage to fill so I have enough to do Shield Block/Shield Barrier is not fast-paced and is not fun. Feeling punished for hitting Heroic Strike outside of Ultimatum procs is not fun.

Active Mitigation is fine and I even like the idea of tanks being more in control of their survivability - you took steps toward that in Wrath by giving tanks their own defensive cooldowns that are up more often, and you're taking it even further in MoP. Just make it flow within the system that Warriors have known and loved for years. Some rage gain on damage intake, and possibly a bit on our white damage, would go a long way to this and wouldn't be a problem.


I'm still trying to wrap my head around the complaint that the new system is slow. What is so slow about it? Are you just standing there waiting for shield slam CDs? Shield block is on a much much shorter cd now so if anything its faster in that sense. With the current state of revenge procs and filling with dev for sword n board procs I don't see why people feel it is slow.

Sure you can't spam hs as much but why was that fun? What made it fun? Have you reforged for hit/expertise? Rage gen is nowhere near as terrible as some of you are making it out to be. Shield block will not have a 100% up time so if that is your issue its not going to change. CTC capping was not a good thing. Sure we are taking a bit more damage than before but all tanks are, heals got a big boost to counter that and with the damage comes vengeance which makes shield barrier stronger.

The old system was stale and needed a change, at this point any change is better than no change. Be nice if people actually left constructive feedback rather than just I can't hs outside of ult procs. Crying about the effects it has on current content which is completely laughable at this point with the nerfs+new talents is absurd. 3-4 weeks from now you will probably never step foot in dragon soul again. Use this time to get a handle on the changes and actually give it some time to sink in before you write them off so quick.

As for rage gains from white hits or damage intake, I think some white hit rage gain would be fine. I do not like the idea of rage gain from damage taken because then you immediately feel gimped in situations were you are not taking damage or the other tank has to taunt off you for a specific raid mechanic.
Edited by Billet on 9/1/2012 3:56 PM PDT
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90 Human Warrior
13175
Initial thoughts?

rage gen too slow. shield block too expensive. rotation too complicated.

testing in 5mans. did Murozond. ez fight. survivability not an issue, but gained only 670 rage for the entire fight. not enough.

shield block too expensive. using abilities to gen threat. using shield barrier vs. magic damage. can't gen enough rage to have shield block available when needed.

rotation too complicated. shield slam, devastate, revenge, thunderclap, shockwave, heroic strike (on proc), etc.

shield slam 6 sec cd. long time between hits for rage gen. need devastate procs to make it work. with revenge, thunderclap, and shockwave thrown into the mix, i can't find enough gcd's for devastate to keep shield slam up to proc heroic strike.

death knight by comparison is simple. deathstrike, rune strike, disease maint, win.

are bears and tankadins this complicated?
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64 Draenei Death Knight
10235
09/01/2012 05:58 PMPosted by Chaosidy
are bears and tankadins this complicated?


Bears have been historically very similar in play to warriors. And in my experience paladins are fairly easy to grasp.

I do agree that rage gen is a bit slow and shield block is too expensive. Id rather they cut the cost, CD, and duration of shield block so you use it more often, and buff rage gen slightly.

I dont think the dps is complicated though. Its very different from before though (to the point where I had to change my keybinds to make it feel similar) which makes the transition harder since you have to learn to use the AM on top of that.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
8355
... Crying about the effects it has on current content which is completely laughable at this point with the nerfs+new talents is absurd.


I was about to write you off, but I examined your setup and experience.

I'm hoping you've actually "done" a heroic blackthorn and beyond with the setup you have and succeeded in a way that convinced you since the patch. I see you've got (or near) caps for expertise and hit which is something I wasn't sure I "had" to do or if it was the wisest choice.

As for not caring past this patch, well I am to a certain extent because my guild is firing up doing heroics before mop officially hits to weed out the latest set of recruits (and maybe me!).
Edited by Clasmir on 9/1/2012 7:47 PM PDT
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85 Night Elf Druid
8010
It's bad, real bad. I've been a dungeon crawler since vanilla, and this is the first time that the games feel likes it got worse. Tanking bosses feels fine, but dungeons are making me rage, tab targeting and spamming revenge is not fun. I suggest letting cleave hit all targets for 35% weapon damage and changing it to a rage generator for prot. Hope things get better soon.
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