Phantom's NEW Poison Guide! 5.1.-ready!

90 Blood Elf Rogue
6980
Hi guys! This'll teach you about poisons. It's a secretly-classified Rouge Legion document.

Go ahead and request a sticky if you want to. I-it's not that Phantom wants you to or anything, but it's an option! Don't get the wrong idea!

Where da hood at:

1. FAQ

2. Poison List with explanations

3. Talents that affect poisons

4. Envenom

5. Mastery

6. Poison usage

8. Credits

News for 5.1.: Wound poison damage increased by 33% (we still want Deadly for PvE)

Pandaria Changes:

- Poisons are now a castable spell. They no longer consume inventory slots. Poison is applied to the rogue, not the weapons.

- Instant poison removed. http://i.imgur.com/AVjhvl.jpg

- Poisons are separated into 2 groups: Lethal (damaging poisons) and Non-Lethal (non-damaging poisons). More below.

- A third season of Sora no Otoshimono has been confirmed! YEAH!!!!!

- All poisons are chance-on-hit now. No more PPM.

- Shiv changed.

- More below.

1). FAQ

Q: What are poisons?

A: Poisons are temporary imbuements available only to rogues (and hunters via snake trap), similar to those of shamans (i.e. windfury weapon, flametongue weapon) that are used for a variety of things from dealing damage to slowing casts. All poisons that deal damage deal nature damage, which is considered magic damage, but scales with your attack power. When your weapon hits an enemy, through either white attacks or specials, the poison has a chance to apply itself.

Q: What's mastery? Is mastery good? Should I reforge to mastery? I want to be a Pokémon master!

A: All of this is explained in the mastery section, except how to catch Deoxys. Godspeed.

Q: What is Starfish Heat?

A: Prepare yourselves, for I, the great Phantom, have hidden adorable little starfish carvings all over the thread. Now now, Phantom made more than enough for everyone so there's no need to panic just yet; however, the truly-devoted starfish collectors had better be prepared to search hard! The starfish carvings with Phantom's autograph are especially well-hidden.

Q: Can I mix & match poisons?

A: As of 5.0.4, you have the option of using one lethal and one non-lethal poison at the same time. Switching is (relatively) quick, easy, free, can be done in arena(?), and it won't ask you anymore.

Q: What types of poisons are there?

A: http://i.imgur.com/75CGFl.jpg . This is a question deserving of a list.
Edited by Cloaked on 11/1/2012 8:35 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
6980
2. Poison List with explanations

R.I.P. Instant Poison. GUESS YOU AIN'T SO INSTANT NO MO'.

First, a word on Shiv: for 5.0.4, shiv has been changed. Shiv now deals 25% off-hand weapon damage (a very low amount, but recall that offhand speed is 1.8 now so it's not THAT bad), dispels an Enrage effect, and applies a concentrated version of your non-lethal poison. Shiv now has a 10-second cooldown; a major glyph, Glyph of Shiv will reduce this to 8 seconds.

What this basically means is that the non-lethal poisons each have a HYPER COMBO!!!! kinda. See details below.

Lethal:

Deadly Poison
Available at level 10.

Has a 30% (increased by assassination spec to 50%) to apply a DoT effect (unaffected by haste, but affected by your melee crit chance) to the target that deals nature damage to the target over 12 seconds. No longer stacks. Only applies one DoT. Subsequent applications will refresh the duration of the DoT and deal nature damage.

Wound Poison
Available at level 32.

Has a 30% (again, 50% for assassination) to reduce the effectiveness of healing effects on the enemy by 25%. Subsequent applications refresh the duration of the debuff and deal nature damage (less nature damage than deadly poison).

Non-lethal:

Crippling Poison
Available at level 20.

Has a 50% chance on hit to slow the enemy by 50%.
One of the perks of this is that it constantly applies from your attacks, even if it is dispelled. The only real counters are things that immunize the enemy to movement-impairing effects such as hand of freedom and master's call. Even so, those are only temporary, and the poison applies itself constantly. Shiv effect: Slows the enemy's speed by 70% instead of 50%.

Mind-numbing Poison
Available at level 28.

Has a 50% chance on hit to increase the enemy's casting time (not casting speed) by 50% (25% on players). Deals no damage at all. Useful in PvP. Basically, they take 30% more time to cast spells. Useless against enemies that do not cast. Shiv effect: Increases the cast time of the enemy's next spellcast within 8 seconds by 100%.

The next two poisons are talent choices.

Leeching Poison
Available to spec into at level 45. This poison is one of the choices for our survivability talent. Other choices include Cheat Death and Elusiveness (Feint provides 30% damage reduction on all damage in addition to its 50% AoE damage reduction).

Has a 50% chance to poison the target (doing nothing with a single application). Once poisoned, all weapon strikes will heal you for 10% of their damage. It's important to note that the healing does not come out of your damage, nor does it come out of the mob's health. It's just extra! Shiv effect: Instantly restores 5% of your total health.

Paralytic Poison
Available to spec into at level 75. This poison is one of the choices for our crowd-control talent. It competes with Prey on the Weak (10% extra damage from all sources of anything you have Cheap Shotted, Kidney Shotted, Gouged, Blinded, or Sapped. The latter 3 break immediately on direct damage, but the first two...) and Dirty Tricks (Gouge/Blind have no energy cost and don't break on your poison/bleed damage).

Has a 20% chance to poison the enemy (doing nothing instantly) for 15 seconds. Stacks up to 5 times. When 5 stacks are reached, they will be stunned* for 4 seconds. Shiv effect: Roots the target in place for 4 seconds. This root does not break on damage. The poison shiv applies does not count toward your 5 stacks.

*This stun is on the random-stun diminishing-returns table. What that means it that it DOES NOT SHARE DR WITH CHEAP/KIDNEY SHOT. Yes, it's possible to have a 10-second stun combining this with a full kidney shot, or if you're combat with revealing strike on the target, a total stun time of 12.1 seconds. Don't think for a second that'll be easy to setup, though; see the Poison Usage section for more details.
Edited by Cloaked on 9/13/2012 6:39 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
6980
3. Effects on poison through spec

Of the three trees, you'll quickly see that assassination is the go-to spec for poisons. Here are its perks:

Improved poisons (passive assassination bonus)

- Increases the chance to apply deadly poison by 20% (to 50% total) and the frequency of applying instant poison by 50% (

Master Poisoner (now common; part of all 3 specs)

A perk that increases the spell damage taken by targets you have poisoned by 5% (this increases caster damage as well as your poison damage). No longer decreases duration of harmful poisons on you.

Venemous Wounds

A new and much-welcome perk that appeared in 4.0.1. Each time your rupture/garrote deal damage to an enemy you have poisoned, you have a 75% chance to deal additional nature damage (a good amount, increased by your attack power) to the enemy and generate 10 energy. In addition, if the enemy dies while affected by your rupture, you will gain energy proportional to the remaining duration of it. This makes rupture a must (higher priority than SnD, if only slightly) for assassination rogues.

Do not open with garrote. Why though? It applies venomous wounds! That may be true, but you can only benefit from either rupture's or garrote's venomous wounds. Garrote won't proc it if you have rupture on the target. Garrote ticks every 3 seconds and rupture ticks every 2 seconds. Both of them do pretty bad damage, but venomous wounds does GREAT damage and restores energy. For an opener, use ambush or mutilate (not crystal-clear which is better yet, although ambush is suspected).

4. Envenom

Available at level 20, this is a powerful finishing move (replaces eviscerate) that completely ignores armor, dealing nature damage based off of attack power. After it is used, you will receive a temporary buff based on the number of combo points that went into it, up to 6 seconds total. This buff increases the chance to apply poisons by 15% and is very good.

Envenom no longer requires any poison whatsoever to use. But you'll put poisons on anyway because you're a good rogue, right? Envenom also refreshes Slice n Dice to its maximum duration (36 seconds) on any use.

Usually, you don't wanna clip the envenom buff because it's pretty good, so pool energy during its duration (unless you're about to cap).

If you have the legendary daggers and you get the buff (finishing moves give 5 combo points), you DO want to clip envenom. You absolutely want to spam envenom during this period (and reapply rupture should it fall off) because, well, it's free.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
6980
5). Mastery

Mastery, a new stat in 4.0.1, has a different effect for every spec in the game, thus it is better for some of us than others. Mastery for mutilate rogues increases our poison damage; 1 point of mastery will give you 0.0195% poison damage increase (it adds up fast). Mastery DOES work in fractions, so every single point of mastery rating increases your poison damage a lil' bit. Mastery for assassination rogues has no "cap" (because poison damage can increase infinitely, opposed to a combat rogue's main gauche, because anything over a 100% chance is wasted).

Currently, the value of mastery is unknown for assassination, but it should be pretty darn good.

Reforging & stats:

Hit cap: 7.5% raid bosses, 3% for PvP,. This will cap your special attacks and poisons. Poisons draw hit from the melee hit table now and nothing else. Expertise affects spell hit now, but not poisons. Poisons are no longer spell hit.

Expertise cap: 7.5% raid bosses, 3% for PvP, 6% for heroic dungeons (maybe).

Hit and Expertise scale at exactly the same rate. The caps is around 770 points or something without racials. Too much math. The points needed to reach the caps (but not the percentages) will raise during Pandaria.

Expertise is probably a lot more important than it used to be for assassination because blindside procs that get dodged are wasted.

6). Poison Usage

In PvE, when no utility is needed that isn't being provided (other classes can mostly keep wound poison effects), it's looking like the two poisons of choice will be Leeching and Deadly for all 3 specs.

It has been reported on the PTR that leeching is doing about 4k healing-per-second (at 90). Of course, as your damage and health increases, so will its heal.

PvP-wise, at level 90, our 4pc PvP set bonus will have some sort of snaring effect like crippling poison, so we'll have a free utility poison. Here are some things to consider, dealing with the usage of poisons:

Instant Poison: NONE LOL IT'S GONE

Mind-numbing poison: Great for casters. Shiv effect works nicely too.

Crippling poison: basically a must-have if you don't have the set bonus from the expansion that hasn't been released yet.

Wound poison: reduces healing by 25%. Also does damage. It's nice, especially if you don't want your target dotted (if you're assassination, you probably want to use deadly because its DoT is so powerful).

Deadly poison: puts a DoT on dey !@# and does instant damage after that. Very powerful actually; Phantom has had MANY people die in battlegrounds from ticking venomous wounds/deadly poison damage. It HURTS.

Leeching Poison: the heal is nice, especially the 5% with Shiv, but it's probably not going to make a huge difference. It MIGHT save you, but not too much is known. For now, we at least know that it probably isn't worth it over crippling. When the set bonus comes out, maybe.

Only melee attacks will heal you. Poisons and bleeds will not trigger leeching poison. Envenom will.

If you want to approximate how much healing will be done, look at your recount/skada damage parse, take the total from everything that isn't a poison or bleed (envenom and hemorrhage's direct strike portion are melee attacks) then divide that by 10. That is the rough (first application does no healing) amount that leeching poison could have healed you for.

Phantom was on a dummy and got healed for something like 180-850 for melee attacks (remember that weapon DPS has about doubled), upwards of 1850 for mutilate crits, and 3.3k~ for blindside crits.

Paralytic Poison: Ugh. It's really bad. Well, it's nice, but it has a 20% chance of applying. That can stack fast in some instances, but mostly, it doesn't. It needs to stack to 5 for its stun to come into effect. Otherwise, you can root (on DR) for 4 seconds with shiv. Should you manage to get to 5 stacks, they'll be stunned for 4 seconds, which is on a separate diminishing-returns table (random-stun DR) from your other stuns, so they won't reduce each other's time.

But one dispel will get rid of the entire stack. LOL. Get to 4? ABOUT TO GET LUCKY? NAH, HEALER DISPELLED IT. FALSE ALARM GUYS. That, or there becomes an unclosable gap between you and the opponent and it falls off. Or you get dismantled and it falls off. Or you get feared and it falls off. Or you get stunned and it falls off. Or it just falls off because it has a 20% chance. Or you switch targets. Or you die.

And it falls off. For the time being.

Oh, did you still want to use paralytic poison? Go right ahead! =)

Hmm... think that's everything. That being said:

STARFISH HEAAAAAAAT! GO!

8. Credits

PHANTOM! LOL

Key - created Clannad, thus Fuko Ibuki, thus Starfish Heat

Valtieri - for the tips on the PPM mechanic! WHICH ISN'T HERE ANYMORE!

Aldriana - stat weighings pickpocketed from his thread in the rogue forum on EJ. (but dey gone now LOL!)

Verelyse - for making a REAL mutilate guide that people can go to instead of asking Phantom all this complicated stuff >_>

The guy/girl/peeps who made Shadowcraft ('cause Phantom sure didn't LOL)

'k go ahead and post guise ^_^
Edited by Cloaked on 10/30/2012 11:38 AM PDT
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90 Undead Rogue
9220
FIRST/RESERVED!
Edited by Lachdonon on 8/31/2012 7:24 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Hunter
10780
08/31/2012 07:17 PMPosted by Cloaked
- A third season of Sora no Otoshimono has been confirmed! YEAH!!!!!


WOOT!

The movie was such a disappointment... half the movie was just what happened in s1+2.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
6980
08/31/2012 07:29 PMPosted by Stalkings
- A third season of Sora no Otoshimono has been confirmed! YEAH!!!!!


WOOT!

The movie was such a disappointment... half the movie was just what happened in s1+2.
DUDE NO KIDDING

Other than that, Cloaked liked it though!

But... Cloaked was all YO

THIS IS A RECAP LOL

SO... MOAR?

Season 3 should conclude things. Hopefully. Maybe.
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90 Blood Elf Hunter
10780
08/31/2012 07:37 PMPosted by Cloaked


WOOT!

The movie was such a disappointment... half the movie was just what happened in s1+2.
DUDE NO KIDDING

Other than that, Cloaked liked it though!

But... Cloaked was all YO

THIS IS A RECAP LOL

SO... MOAR?

Season 3 should conclude things. Hopefully. Maybe.


Well, once the recap ended it wasn't too bad...

Gotta admit the ending came REALLY close to pissing me off royally. I was all like WHAT THE CRAP! ...but I will leave it at that, don't wanna give spoilers.

Did they say when it is set to start airing? Also I really hope crunchyroll picks it up, watching animes on third party sites or on Hulu is an exercise in frustration, really.
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86 Human Rogue
7765
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzeHq9blYC8

<3
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90 Night Elf Rogue
10500
I didn't know there was so much to learn about poisons.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11450
This needs to be stickied.
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85 Human Rogue
14610
"Usually, you don't wanna clip the envenom buff because it's pretty good, so pool energy during its duration (unless you're about to cap). "

You want to pool energy before you use it and do two Mutilates when the buff is up for more poison procs.
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100 Blood Elf Rogue
16380
I noticed 2 little mistakes so far:

08/31/2012 07:18 PMPosted by Cloaked
Shiv now has a 10-second cooldown; a prime glyph will reduce this to 8 seconds.
It's a Major glyph, not a prime glyph. Prime glyphs don't exist anymore.

Has a 50% chance to poison the target (doing nothing with a single application). All subsequent applications will heal you for 10% of the damage that the applying strike did.
The bolded part is incorrect. All weapon strikes will heal for 10% of their damage, regardless of whether they re-applied the debuff or not.

Also, I found 2 starfish carvings, but neither were autographed so I put them back.
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90 Goblin Rogue
8455
08/31/2012 07:19 PMPosted by Cloaked
For an opener, use ambush or mutilate (not crystal-clear which is better yet, although ambush is suspected).

Mutilate, silly.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
6980
08/31/2012 08:16 PMPosted by Berserage
You want to pool energy before you use it and do two Mutilates when the buff is up for more poison procs.
It's fine to pool a little energy, but if you get too close you may end up capping through venomous wounds and relentless strikes. It's also advisable to get dat buff up sooner rather than later, especially in situations where you've got cooldowns up.

Your idea's good though! It definitely has its benefits.

08/31/2012 08:18 PMPosted by Pancakê
Major glyph, not a prime glyph.
Thanks, mom.

08/31/2012 08:18 PMPosted by Pancakê
The bolded part is incorrect.
Are you sure? Cloaked double-checked the tooltip =o

(hey Cloaked is messin' with ya)

08/31/2012 08:52 PMPosted by Backstabi
Mutilate, silly.
Tell Caera! Cloaked uses both, personally.
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90 Goblin Rogue
8455
08/31/2012 09:15 PMPosted by Cloaked
Tell Caera! Cloaked uses both, personally.

Verelyse is saying Mut, so I'm going with that.
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85 Human Rogue
14610
Your idea of auto attacks with the buff up makes no sense at all, what I said is the correct way and I don't know why you're telling me it is wrong. If you energy cap from doing it is your fault. Yes, you can overlap the buff a little if need be but your way is just plain wrong.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
6980
Leave your attitude at the door. Thanks.

08/31/2012 09:24 PMPosted by Berserage
Your idea of auto attacks with the buff up makes no sense at all
Autoattacks proc poisons too. Welcome to the rogue class.

08/31/2012 09:24 PMPosted by Berserage
If you energy cap from doing it is your fault.
Any large haste effect combined with a 75% proc chance on venomous wounds, not to mention the possibility of a blindside proc is going to energy-cap you. Welcome to real raiding situations and not napkin-math.

08/31/2012 09:24 PMPosted by Berserage
what I said is the correct way


08/31/2012 09:24 PMPosted by Berserage
your way is just plain wrong
Do you know whom you're talking to right now?

08/31/2012 09:24 PMPosted by Berserage
I don't know why you're telling me it is wrong


08/31/2012 09:15 PMPosted by Cloaked
Your idea's good though! It definitely has its benefits.

Welcome to reading comprehension.

Cloaked appreciates your input, Blade of the Unmaker-chan, and yes, special attacks during envenom's buff uptime, gaining the staggering 15% increase in application chance, are better than special attacks outside of the buff's duration or an envenom buff passing with special attacks done, but you're failing to realize the reality of the situation.

You're most likely going to gain the energy cost back from envenom in the time it takes you to cast it due to relentless strikes (hasn't Cloaked said this before?). Also, news flash, the buff lasts 5-6 seconds. You're talking about being ready to again envenom after the first two globals after an envenom.

"Pool energy unless it's about to cap because you don't want to clip it" refers to being ready to envenom again like you probably are while the envenom buff is still up. You don't clip the buff, you pool energy.

Hey,

Welcome to the Rogue Forum.

Seriously, welcome!
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11450
And the cattiness is why I wait for Elitist Jerks to tell me what to do.
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85 Human Rogue
14610
I will leave my attitude at the door.

I would like to know who you are though.

And yes, I notice that every guide on this forum is from a main who hasn't even killed heroic DW before so I also read and listen to EJ.

Edit: Nothing you said has changed the fact that what I said was the correct way and your way was the sub-par way.

You act like managing procs/energy is hard, and that is your reason for not doing the right way, I don't get it.
Edited by Berserage on 8/31/2012 11:09 PM PDT
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