Holy Avenger vs. D. Purpose; A PVP discussion

90 Blood Elf Paladin
8355
Before I delve any further into this, I would like to note that I am a casual PVPer at best. I like my Non-rated BGs, world PVP skirmishes, capping conquest points with real life friends, and to this date have had virtually no desire to achieve any kind of arena rating. It's just not my thing.

Anyway.

I've been having a hard time weighing the pros and cons of Holy Avenger and Divine purpose, and wanted to convey some thoughts to you all in hopes of engaging in an enlightening discussion about these two talents.

Holy Avenger:

Pros:
1) On demand cooldown, you can save it when on the ropes or trying to get that little boost you need to secure a kill.
2) 30% bonus damage to Holy Power Generators. (we don't HEAL with holy power generators, so the 30% only applies to Judgment, HoW, Exo, HotR, and Crusader)
3) A 2 minute cooldown gives us a great ability to macro our 2 minute on use trinket. Having wings on a 3 minute cooldown really messed up the synergy I had with my on use trinket.
4) Gives us a small window every 6 minutes or so to blow Wings, Avenger, and Guardian at the same time to really lay down some pressure.

Cons:
1) Being a cooldown, especially with the new Ashbringer graphic, makes us a huge glowing "CC ME NOW" beacon. Nothing sucks more than popping your precious 2 minute cooldown only to get chain CCed/silenced, rendering it next to useless. (only takes a silence here, stun there, AoE fear there, and its all gone)
2) Even with moderate haste and using the generally accepted rotation, I still run into free globals with this talent. Not often, but it's noticeably different from the sustained flow of DP.

Divine Purpose:

Pros:
1) Can chain proc, allowing subsequent finishers or heals. You can't rely on it, but 25% is a pretty nice chance at the rate in which we pump out Verdicts and WoGs.
2) In the chance of being chain CCed, losing a proc doesn't feel like the end of the world. Having 8 seconds to spend the proc allows a lot of breathing room in between CCs to squeeze that WoG or Inquisition Refresh out of it. Being incapacitated during a DP proc just kinda sucks, being locked down during wings/avenger is like eating a d*ck sandwich.
3) Eases the rough spots in the rotation, allowing that extra global when your generators are only a second away from being off. Also, from my experience, Divine purpose being set at 8 seconds lets you stockpile the proc to a degree. Say you're at 5 holy power and some generators are about to come off CD, you Templar Verdict into a proc, sit on the proc until all your generators are used, then unleash the proc while sitting on enough resources for another, both with a chance to proc DP again.
4) Has good synergy with the Popular Templar's Verdict and Word of Glory glyphs. Having those procs thrown into our normal rotation increases the up time of the buffs these glyphs provide.

Cons:
1) Being RNG, DP has it's moments where it never ever ever procs, ever.
2) Sacrifices an on demand burst cooldown, which could really swing the tide of a fight. If you lost a really close fight in which you received very few if any DP procs, you'd be kicking yourself thinking how Avenger could've improved on that particular encounter

I've been switching between the two on and off for the past few days, trying to get a feel for both. I find myself leaning more toward Divine purpose, mostly because I like how it supplements our normal rotation. I've always been a sucker for procs anyway, RNG or not, flashy shinnies on the screen let me boom boom and make me happy.

TLDR; If you don't feel like reading my wall of text, what is your stance on these talents from a (casual) PVP standpoint? Explain and keep an open mind.
Edited by Andhar on 9/1/2012 6:48 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
9890
You want that burst that you can trigger with Holy Avenger. Its like zelatory on steroids.
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90 Human Paladin
7690
I would say when it comes to PvP i would chose Holy Avenger for the on command Bursting Capabilities it offers.
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90 Human Paladin
0
Holy Avenger. As of right now (level 85 not 90 balance). The Proc is nice, but It's not enough to get you through a DK's burst or a Mage/Lock as of right now. Also if you get unlucky with it during those times... Well, thats game.
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85 Human Paladin
6555
I need to test 'em more, but I think this is the most balanced choice of any tier. Both are good.
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I mean I like DP but if I was doing arena's id pref Holy Avenger for most comps i play (excpt maybe retLS) but for bursty comps that we normally have to play id go with something i can line up with my partner to "nuke".

P.S i have no clue what kind of dmg MoP comps will do, just guessing...
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ughhh i didnt read close enough lol, but you are right for some reason it loves to proc off of wog. i got like 5 procs in a row a couple of times today with wogs and just healed my team to full. Was so funny!

edit: i dont like getting into bad habits so qq im just a freak who likes to be exact on my gameplay
Edited by Klassics on 9/1/2012 2:38 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8355
Oh you'd definitely want more control over your damage when it comes to rated play. DP is great for screwing around in BGs, which is all we can do for the time being.

Then again it all depends on your comp VS enemy comp. If you know you're gonna have to play defensively for most of the fight, those DP procs could be an amazing source of healing.


This is more or less where I stand at the moment. Being able to switch talents with a single dust of disappearance really encourages swapping based on the situation you're in. For Arenas Holy Avenger would probably be more effective with most comps, being a more controlled environment with team coordination. It would also be really effective for blasting the !@#$ out of someone if you were in the mood to gank, being able to take someone by surprise with Avenger, wings, guardian would be pretty devastating.

Divine Purpose seems to work best in chaotic environments like BGs, where the CC is harder to predict. It just feels better to always have DP working for you through a long brutal skirmish with lots of players as opposed to an 18 second burst window. I also like it for questing/dailies, where I find myself holding onto cooldowns most of the time anyway for fear of getting jumped. If I speced Avenger for questing I'd probably rarely use it outside of getting attacked by other players.

09/01/2012 02:31 PMPosted by Lobster
Remember we will be able to preview the enemy team's comp/specs before the start of a match.


I completely missed this change, that's amazing. I got so sick of 2/5s of the classes being able to start out invisible at the beginning of every arena match. It was really punishing to people who either couldn't or didn't have ventrilo. Allowing a little bit of prep time seems awesome.
Edited by Andhar on 9/1/2012 3:21 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
11230
Being able to control when I apply pressure is far superior to any alternative. Plus Ashbringer is shiny.
Edited by Rabanastre on 9/1/2012 4:53 PM PDT
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Divine purpose all the way for me. It seems to proc a lot, plus it's one less cooldown to manage.

I've read that the damage benefit of all three are pretty close, so divine purpose is less burst damage of course, but equal over the long term. I guess in pvp burst is key, but still I like that divine purpose can proc any time.
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90 Human Paladin
6340
I think the decision can be made on a few basic factors. I'll lay out my sound reasoning.

1. What your are aiming for in PvP. Duel god / Arena team player / Bg hero
2. They way you choose to reforge. Important.
3. Your other chosen talents.

Personally I will go with Divine Purpose. The potential burst / heals in crunchtime can really pay off. I prefer the RnG (odd) Just to keep up Inquisition, WoG, TV more often. It makes me feel a bit more operational than the 2 min cd.
I go crit. Nothing like a WoG that crits and Procs another WoG that crits. Nuff said.
If you went haste or mastery I'd imagine you'd see a more consistent benefit to Holy Avenger.
If you were to go say repentance or burden over Fist of Justice I'd say DP would be a better choice. The Idea would be use Fist, get a trinket. Save AW and Holy Avenger for the next HoJ and stack major damage.

Main reason DP over Holy Avenger personally... the 5 stack of Holy power. My burst is stack 5, TV, Exorcism, TV. If I get another TV proc off of a TV then I see it as being just as bursty as Avenger. I don't typically get off more than 3 TVS in 3 globals off a person regaurdless. In arena remember cds don't typically get kills, they get other cds.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7945
Divine Purpose does not proc off of Harsh Words. So you can use WoG/Heal, get a proc, and then cast Harsh Words, but you cannot cast Harsh Words and get a proc for another Harsh Words. Not sure why it is like this as Harsh Words clearly uses Holy Power, but that's how it is. I've heard this from others and tested on mobs and target dummies, no procs.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12890
in my experience, as of right now DP seems to be proccing a lot less than it used to

when it was working properly, DP all the way for randoms/BG heroing

and HA most likely for any rated play

but since DP doesnt like to proc right now HA all the way, even if i hate it, because i always forget to use my CDs, i have never leaned on them to get a kill
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1 Human Warrior
0
is it too much to ask for having both?

shocking, i know
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90 Human Paladin
13270
I dropped HA for DP and won't be going back. DP procs all the time especially with a haste build. HA is liek a ride at a theme park...too much of a wait for such a short thrill. You can pull some amazing burst as well as chain WoGs with DP.
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