Why is Tank Damage 100% Vengence driven now?

94 Pandaren Warrior
16150
I understand each difficulty having the same amount of tanks, but 10 mans have always been more dependent on individual performance than 25s are.

If you take a hunter who can pull 45k on 25man ultraxion, the closer he gets to that in a 10man, the exponentially easier the fight will be, especially if the other DPS get closer to 25 man numbers as well
Edited by Ðemolition on 9/1/2012 10:53 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
13785
I understand each difficulty having the same amount of tanks, but 10 mans have always been more dependent on individual performance than 25s are.

If you take a hunter who can pull 45k on 25man ultraxion, the closer he gets to that in a 10man, the exponentially easier the fight will be, especially if the other DPS get closer to 25 man numbers as well


I get that, but I think it puts TOO much on us if we're dealing 80k in 25man and still 80k in 10man, assuming they balance with Tanks doing that much in mind. On the other side, Tanks would trivialize 10man because we're expected to only do 60k and thus we can potentially compensate for 20k deficits out of the DPS.

I'm honestly not at all concerned about the number of actual DPS because to deal the 60k on 10man and to deal the 80k on 25man requires precisely the same effort. Even though the output is different, equal efforts so the 10man emphasis is still there.
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90 Night Elf Druid
0
09/01/2012 09:44 AMPosted by Fasc
If the "victim" in all of this is our DPS being dependent upon the encounter... which is almost silly to say since that's how real DPS really shake out as well... but our defensive buttons all scale appropriate from tier to tier and from boss to boss... I'm OK with that.


I think that's the problem I'm seeing on the DPS end. Our DPS is really shaking out by encounter rather than skill and strategy choices. Let me give a simple example.

During the Boat fight most tanks fight the two melee mobs in the middle. A very simple change to make the fight a bit easier is to pull to the right/left side and cleave/ae the ranged mob. In 4.x I would see consistent DPS numbers with this type of strategy. Now what I see in the boat fight is my strategy doesn't matter much. What does matter is how much vengeance is stacked on me.

The amount of vengeance we have dictates our damage more than it ever has. Personally I think we're starting to see the flaw in this design where it makes it feel like our choices matter less than the automated system in place. Personally I feel like my choices matter less because vengeance is just sitting there taking half my freaking job.

Anyway... I know vengeance is a mechanic needed in the current game design I just really don't like seeing my play-style becoming so dependent on vengeance.
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90 Human Paladin
14020
08/31/2012 09:24 PMPosted by Judgesyou
I'm just not seeing the low dps numbers all these people are complaining about.

My overall damage intake seems lower than pre-patch, but I'm a lot spikier when I do take damage. I try to use my CD's consistently, and am using AW primarily as a defensive rather than offensive CD (it is glyphed as well). I'm not having threat problems, even with hunter/lock pets in DS. I have reforged for 7.5% hit/expertise, pre-patch I was expertise capped but only <2% hit. I don't really expect to have amazing DPS as tank, but seriously, 8k on a heroic boss?!?
I tanked DS 10H, 12k on Morchok, 14k on Yor'sahj, 16k on Zon'ozz, 10k on Hagara, 19k on Ultrax, 8-9.5k on Boat (3 attempts, we stopped at Boat, didn't get it down, though I don't think my DPS was the culprit).
I tanked Alizabel in BH-25 and did 6.3k (less than half of usual, though I have had some poor parses before).
I tanked LFR Spine 7.4k and Madness 14.3k
I haven't tried tanking any 5-mans, yet.

As Katrisa pointed out, it's not just that our DPS goes way down on Boat. It's a symptom of Vengeance dropping off when we're waiting for the next set of adds, so we're really squishy when Warmaster and Goriana do get around to showing up. Our abilities all depend so much on Vengeance, and HoPo/Rage decay fast if we're just standing around. The same is true of other encounters with tank swapping or waiting for adds to come out (ie. LFR Spine and Alizabel).
Edited by Mistana on 9/1/2012 11:35 AM PDT
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100 Tauren Druid
14520
It's a symptom of Vengeance dropping off when we're waiting for the next set of adds, so we're really squishy when Warmaster and Goriana do get around to showing up. Our abilities all depend so much on Vengeance, and HoPo/Rage decay fast if we're just standing around.


Rage still isn't decaying in combat, can't talk about HoPo since I've only played a druid. Meanwhile, that is what the minimum on vengeance is for. Especially for druids and pallys, whose only defense based on vengeance is a heal (and therefore reactive anyway).

Although, tbh, I'm not a huge fan of the minimum value as-is, we get so much AP from it that one 60-rage FR will heal almost the entirety of any magic attack, no matter the size, and if it's a really large hit (impale, Dblade), then it gives us so much AP that we've got an OP amount of healing for a while thereafter. It just feels weird to WANT to get hit by stuff like impale, decimation blade, shock blast, shadow fissure, etc. for the DPS and healing benefits.
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90 Human Paladin
14020
My 67 druid is only doing 5-mans, but her rage does seem to decay if she isn't hitting anything. I could be mistaken, but the feedback I had from my druid co-tank this week on H boat, and from the druid tank in my priest's DS run, included rage decay issues when waiting for the new adds, and feeling extra-squishy when they did show up.

If I have no HoPo when the new adds show up, I can't ShotR them right away, and I'm less likely to get helpful procs. Using AW helped a lot with getting up the "hump," but tanks who chose DP are going to really struggle there, even though it gives more overall HoPo.
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90 Human Paladin
10930
It just feels weird to WANT to get hit by stuff like impale, decimation blade, shock blast, shadow fissure, etc. for the DPS and healing benefits.


Can't say no to the 170k ap from Impale. Mmmmmmmmmmmm!
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100 Tauren Druid
14520
09/01/2012 12:25 PMPosted by Sliphe
Can't say no to the 170k ap from Impale. Mmmmmmmmmmmm!


My best to date was 770k. Decimation blade on a last standed me :).
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100 Tauren Druid
18540
08/31/2012 09:35 PMPosted by Sildas
So we'd have one static based on your gear (Frenzied regen) and one that scales with inc damage (Savage defense).

You mistyped that, don't worry, I'll fix it.

"So we'd have one useless one that we don't use on anything remotely challenging and the one we actually use."


Because Savage Defense in cata was useless? It was a static number considering youre always vengeance capped, it was still great.
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100 Tauren Druid
18540
Also, considering frenzied regen doesnt gain any benefit from Attack power from agi... why not make vengeance a number that doesnt affect dps but affects our frenzied regen? I'd really love our dps to not scale exponentially with incoming damage... I'm sure that if we have decent abilities that scale well, we can manage without vengenace for threat, especialy with the 500% threat boost : O
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
09/01/2012 03:17 PMPosted by Dreyen
Because Savage Defense in cata was useless? It was a static number considering youre always vengeance capped, it was still great.

Ever wondered why we were repeatedly buffed every patch? Savage Defense.
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90 Night Elf Druid
13785

Because Savage Defense in cata was useless? It was a static number considering youre always vengeance capped, it was still great.


Useless? Not entirely.

Poorly scaled, needed constant band aids, and utterly pointless on many challenging fights? Definitely yes.

SD suffered anytime you took more hits in a set time frame (multiple attacks, haste, etc), the damage per attack began to greatly exceed the bubble size, or we were unable to attack consistently.

Zon'ozz was a classic example of pain for Druids that did NOT affect the Block Tanks in the same way. His self-buff hasted his attacks (less likely of having SD up for his hits) and made them hit harder (SD mitigated hits didn't scale with him). On the flip side, Block capped Tanks continued to Block even if he sped up his attacks and because they chipped off a percentage, they scaled with his increasing damage.

Warmaster had similar issues that were worsened simply because the two-hit combo of Devastate/Melee were enough to global a Druid at 0%-5% without a bit of luck or a lot of external/self CDs.

Blood kiting? /chuckle

But on the other side of the fence you had things like Hagara where our baseline mitigation and SD bubbles trim the pain of her Focused Assault, and our passive mitigation and amazing CDs lined up very nicely with Madness Impales.

Cata SD was a relic of Wrath SD where the blocked amounts weren't anything special at all, just like real Block. It didn't scale, it didn't work very well, and it didn't significantly impact our chances of survival. That's why while it was mathematically pushed to focus on Agility (for improved SD and Dodge increases), you could stack Stamina and be just fine, albeit more of a drain on your Healers.

If our FR was static and didn't scale well or scaled like SD did in Cata, we might as well not use it ever in competitive play and then simultaneously piss off every group we get in 5mans as we race ahead of the other four, self-healing and killing everything on our lonesome.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
5960
09/01/2012 03:38 PMPosted by Fasc
piss off every group we get in 5mans as we race ahead of the other four, self-healing and killing everything on our lonesome.


DONT STEAL MY IMPORTANT JOB :(
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100 Tauren Druid
18540
in my post though, if we all had abilities that are more "static" like the old savage defense, every class would have one, so we wouldnt be behind:

Druids would have frenzied Regen
Warriors Shield Barrier
Paladins have word of glory.
Dunno about other tanks..

If all of these scaled like old SD, that would be fine, those three classes have another active mitigation which actually scales with incoming damage. The second active mitigation would just be a backup for when we rage cap on our main ability. Although im not very familiar with all the new mechanics for every tank, so maybe blizz has a more "variable" style of active mitigation and it might not be so easy to balance it all..

Anyways, nothing would stop them to make frenzied regen to be solely based off incoming damage like the old Death Strike and to make our damage constant no matter what..
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1 Human Warrior
0
08/31/2012 10:19 AMPosted by Voldiir
. That being said, I AM irritated that we lost Righteous Defense. Did all the other tanks also lose their "AoE" taunts?


This has irritated me to no end as well. It's what I used to keep my dps alive when they decided to go stupid and pull what they shouldn't be pulling. Now it's gone. I can hear it now "YOU LET ME DIE TANK". I don't understand the reasoning behind taking this particular taunt away from us.
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SD scales with incoming damage as well. Dodging a 200k hit is much more beneficial than dodging a 100k hit.
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100 Troll Warrior
19435
09/01/2012 03:17 PMPosted by Dreyen
Because Savage Defense in cata was useless? It was a static number considering youre always vengeance capped, it was still great.

It was alright. It was also passive, and as Fasc mentioned, buffed every patch. Were you forced to choose between a static value reduction and a reduction that increases in value based on the size of the hits you're facing, you wouldn't take the former for anything that's threatening.

In a Druid specific example, were you forced to choose a reduction that increases in value based on the incoming damage, and a heal that's a proverbial spit in the ocean, why would you ever choose the heal? If one Dodge due to Savage Defense reduced damage by 3-4 times (or more) what Frenzied Regeneration healed, why would you ever choose Frenzied Regen?
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Also, considering frenzied regen doesnt gain any benefit from Attack power from agi... why not make vengeance a number that doesnt affect dps but affects our frenzied regen?


Doesn't Frenzied gain a benefit from 5% of all Agility through Mark/Kings?

Because Savage Defense in cata was useless? It was a static number considering youre always vengeance capped, it was still great.


We needed a lot of buffs purely because of SD, and the end result was still questionable and painful in some scenarios.
Edited by Slashlove on 9/1/2012 9:13 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
13785
09/01/2012 09:12 PMPosted by Slashlove
Doesn't Frenzied gain a benefit from 5% of all Agility through Mark/Kings?


Yeah FR is driven MOSTLY by Vengeance, and a bit from resultant buffed Agility (minus core Agility and such)
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