New Talent System

85 Troll Druid
6980
08/31/2012 05:10 PMPosted by Crithto
We really believe in the principle of 'simple to learn, hard to master'


umm just from a Feral standpoint- the class has become even more complicated in PvP with the Savage Roar buff change. Seriously our overall dmg shouldn't depend so much on a single buff that keeps ticking away. Glyphed or not, it stinks for PvP. Managing Rake, Rip, and SR was doable in Raids but when youre getting chain cc'd to oblivion in PvP, having SR to worry about becomes overwhelming and frankly, a hurtle to success.

Feral should be more streamlined- there, I said it. Right now the class is only for the hardcore players who have been doing it since Wrath due to the insane amount of different abilities we need to use in PvP to be successful. I was damn good at Feral before this patch hit. Now I'm overwhelmed by the complexity and I really don't care to put in the frustrating hours to relearn a class I previously enjoyed.

Wait, wait, WHAT?

Most of your players didn't experiment a lot with talent trees because under the most recent version of the previous system, there was absolutely no need or ability to do so. You removed the ability to have true hybrid trees, which DID allow for experimenting - what some people called fun.

I have highlighted and bolded the operative word. Most people experimenting with Wrath talent system got called pretty much every insult in the book for daring to try something that wasn't one of half a dozen expertly number-crunched specs. I am fairly sure even without that, the vast majority of players really didn't try to develop those hybrid builds.
100 Blood Elf Priest
14225
08/31/2012 06:00 PMPosted by Irocain


No he is absolutely right. The lack of choices with the cata talent changes were a direct result of the design team, you know, designing them that way. I leveled up my priest using shadow and disc talents - it was great. I made the choices. This was not an option in cata.

Comparing the cata talent system to the mop one is comparing a turd to a turd. Blizzard had a great opportunity to really overhaul the talent system into a dynamic and meaningful one and they blew it.


All because you people can't give up your hybrid specs. Let it go. It is gone and never coming back. Take a long hard look at the new system and actually spend time playing it. Most of you complaining about this have barely even touched the new system and expect to be taken seriously.


Has it ever occurred to you that people have tried the new system and genuinely don't like it, for completely valid reasons? Different people like different things. Shocking, I know. Also, it's hard to take your comments seriously when they are always so insulting and hostile towards others who may not agree with you.
100 Blood Elf Priest
14225
08/31/2012 05:10 PMPosted by Crithto
I like the new talent system. Besides, a bunch of the old talents and spells are now passive, innate abilities. You don't even have to think about them.


You're on the right track. I think Ghostcrawler said it best in his [url="http://www.buffed.de/World-of-Warcraft-PC-16678/Specials/WoW-Item-Aufwertung-Charaktermodelle-Klassenaenderungen-mit-WoW-Patch-504-1021643/2/"]recent interview[/url] with buffed.de:

We really believe in the principle of 'simple to learn, hard to master' -- by which we mean that we like the rules to be pretty easy to understand and then have a lot of depth behind the scenes and a lot of ways for players to consider 'Oh, I can use this talent in this situation and this ability here'. So they can explore that and demonstrate mastery of their class in that way. We don't think it's the right design to have very complicated rules that players struggle to understand. And the truth is that most of our players didn't experiment a lot with the talent trees anyway. They would just go online to check or ask their friends which talents they should choose. So it was hard to learn and easy to master which is kind of the worst game design to have.


Check out the rest of the interview when you get a chance.


This new talent system is easy to learn, and easy to master. You watch, within a few weeks people will grow bored and want something else.
100 Blood Elf Paladin
17960
08/31/2012 06:01 PMPosted by Qeek
That may well be, but by creating a talent system without choices on what in 99% of the time are no brain talents, those 1% of cases have been obliterated. Blizzard, though never offering support for soloing activites never really took a step directly against it until this patch.


Then you should be thankful for all the time you got to solo farm raid content.


Why shouldn't I be frustrated that I can no longer, purely because choice was taken away from me and a change was made to how procced pets like blood worms when one was unnecessary at all?
26 Worgen Rogue
10635
Also I did Prefer the BC - Early Wrath Talent system where you could actually Hybridize your class - My favorite being a 50% Disc. 50% Shadow Priest spec., Great Survivability and Utility, with decent damage from shadow.

It was a big disappointment when they locked you out of the other two trees until way higher up = /


While I think the new talent system does give more choice in talents then previous where you were left with 2 or 3 options after taking your cookie cutter, I think the above statement is at the crux of the problem people have with the new talent system.

The MoP talent system removes any remaining illusion that we are in control of fine-tuning our character builds, which I think has been a long time RPG staple. Granted, everyone was chosing the same builds previously (well, 90% of us) due to the availability of information, but the feel was that we were actively involved in crafting those choices.

To be honest, I don't know how to fix it. Any time those choices get put back, we are all going to go right back to cloning the max potential build anyway. But if there's anyway for Blizzard to re-implement the illusion of player controlled character development, it would alleviate what talent system QQ is left out there.
Edited by Psynister on 8/31/2012 6:14 PM PDT
100 Tauren Druid
11300
Crap I always do? Ooookay... *shakes head*

Feel free to point out just what I took out of context here. He said players weren't experimenting with talent trees, and I pointed out it's because the 4.0 trees made it impossible. It's not the players' fault.


Outside of a few people playing Shockadins, by Wrath most hybrid talent builds were long dead and buried. They simply were not viable if only because end tree tools were a necessity. Classic was the only place where an odd talent build could really be good, but then the talents in Classic weren't always great to begin with. (Remember, mages used to have a talent for wand damage)

There is a name for anyone that experimented with talent trees during Wrath, "Bad." I hate to say it was actually true too. The talent system made it a necessity for people to use cookie cutter specs. Worse, content was geared towards min/maxxing. Someone spending all their points in a single tree were called bad because they were dragging the rest of the group down. It's like if now (or pre MoP patch) you saw a DK blood tank with 2 one-hand weapons.


I know you're wrong. I had a balance/resto hybrid build in Wrath that worked, and no one ever complained to me about my damage output.

Regardless of what they were called, though, that doesn't change my point that people DID experiment with talent builds up until the point where they were no longer able to because of a change in the function of the game. Not because they chose to stop doing so, like Ghostcrawler wants people to believe.
100 Blood Elf Priest
14225


Outside of a few people playing Shockadins, by Wrath most hybrid talent builds were long dead and buried. They simply were not viable if only because end tree tools were a necessity. Classic was the only place where an odd talent build could really be good, but then the talents in Classic weren't always great to begin with. (Remember, mages used to have a talent for wand damage)

There is a name for anyone that experimented with talent trees during Wrath, "Bad." I hate to say it was actually true too. The talent system made it a necessity for people to use cookie cutter specs. Worse, content was geared towards min/maxxing. Someone spending all their points in a single tree were called bad because they were dragging the rest of the group down. It's like if now (or pre MoP patch) you saw a DK blood tank with 2 one-hand weapons.


And this cold hard reality is what the whiners refuse to accept. Is the new system perfect? No. Can it be improved? Yes. Does it serve anyone to look at previous incarnations of the talent system through rose colored glasses and deny the faults that existed in those systems? Good or bad like it or not this is the new talent system we are going to be working with from now on so rather than harp on the past maybe we should all move forward and see if we can find ways to improve the new system?


Constructive criticism =/= whining. Re-read all the posts that were up on the beta forums and elsewhere where people provided very detailed, useful feedback that eventually ended up being neglected.
100 Blood Elf Priest
14225


Has it ever occurred to you that people have tried the new system and genuinely don't like it, for completely valid reasons? Different people like different things. Shocking, I know. Also, it's hard to take your comments seriously when they are always so insulting and hostile towards others who may not agree with you.


It would occur to me if it wasn't so blindingly obvious which people actually knew the new system and which ones didn't. As far as hostile and insulting goes your side of this issue has me beat. Almost every single criticism of this new system has revolved around insulting players and/or Blizzard developers. I love how you can dish it out but you can't take it.


Nice try, troll, but many of us, including myself, have played on the beta for weeks. So don't even go there.
100 Tauren Druid
11300

Wait, wait, WHAT?

Most of your players didn't experiment a lot with talent trees because under the most recent version of the previous system, there was absolutely no need or ability to do so. You removed the ability to have true hybrid trees, which DID allow for experimenting - what some people called fun.

I have highlighted and bolded the operative word. Most people experimenting with Wrath talent system got called pretty much every insult in the book for daring to try something that wasn't one of half a dozen expertly number-crunched specs. I am fairly sure even without that, the vast majority of players really didn't try to develop those hybrid builds.


Maybe I missed that 'experience' in Wrath. But I'll be honest - the most name-calling on builds occurs HERE, on the forums. It doesn't happen in the actual game that much. I know I never got insulted on my damage or healing output in Wrath. *shrug*
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