PLEASE DELETE - NEW THREAD MADE

90 Troll Druid
11620
09/19/2012 11:31 AMPosted by Catmandu
The reason there are three bumps is because the threads on this forum move so fast that this useful information can fall off the front page very quickly making it harder to find it. I know this because I couldn't find it for someone I was trying to help yesterday. If we could get this as a sticky we wouldn't have to bump it as frequently.


Features such as "Search" exist for this reason. Let me go find my brewery idea for MOP well before Stormstout Brewery was announced. I was able to find my old suggestion/idea thread.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3595575859

(Mind you, I designed a raid) Mischievous Hozen...Running Barrels into the boss...Barrels increasing damage output. Sounds a lot like the first boss/trash of STB (instance). Of course, it's not 1:1; but you get the idea. Search feature is a great tool.
Edited by Cyous on 9/19/2012 11:43 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Troll Druid
8345
You didn't explain your stat priorities.


"In PVP we have a pretty Cut and Dry view on stats. We don’t really have to concern ourselves about the detail of it too much. We take the best stat and stack as much of it as possible. Though most people will just follow the reforge list, this is the reasoning behind it."

"Intelligence: or INT, increases our spell power, spell crit and mana pool. In 5.0 INT will no longer increase our mana. As of 4.3 this is our strongest stat and should be gemmed for. You cannot reforge INT.
Haste: Increases our cast speed. Lowers our global CD and adds additional ticks to our DoTs and HoTs. This is our best stat by leaps and bounds because it affects our offensive and defensive ability. Faster Cyclones and heals as well as more damage.

Mastery: Increases the damage bonus from Eclipse. Fantastic boost while in eclipse, but out of eclipse it gives us 0 Benefit. Meaning if you’re out of eclipse you might as well not even have a mastery.

Critical Strike: Increases our chances for Critical Strikes. This stat is pure RNG (Random Number Generated). It’s all luck and honestly our weakest stat.

PvP Power: Increases our Damage and Healing done. Only active in Arena and Battlegrounds. It's going to be a numbers game if this can compete with Int.

Hit/Spirit: Increases our chance to hit with spells and ability’s. We need 6% Spell hit for PvP. 1 Spirit is the same as 1 Hit. So either will work."

Taken straight from the OP.

. My CC's don't need to be 0.2sec faster. I have tons more survivability and know how to bait a kick, juke


In 3s you will. Maybe i should make seperate stat priorities for Arena and other variations of PvP.

the reason Crit is so attractive right now is because of just how much we can get at the end of this tier / expansion.

Add that into how people are only doing bgs aka you can have 6-8 targets doted with Mf / Sf easily. Yes you get an absurd amount of Shooting Star Procs.

Your playstyle may differ; if so explain, your playstyle and why it works for you. Haste is primary useless because I'm not hardcasting as often as I did in 4.3. Nearly all of our kills/pressure will be Starsurge-related, and my playstyle is designed around Starsurge/DOTs for those reasons.


I've made my Playstyle extremely clear in the "How to deal Damage" Section. At 90 Haste will still Trump pure crit.

Even though Shooting Star is based off of crit it still doesn't change the fact that:

Crit only matters WHEN you crit. If you don't crit, the stat doesn't affect you. (I worded that a bit oddly ~_~ hmm..)

Same concept as with Mastery. When you arn't in Eclipse, mastery isn't affecting you - is the closest i can get to what i mean haha.

Haste affects EVERYTHING we do.

Reduced GCD.

Increases the amount of ticks we get from Rejuv, Moonfire and Sunfire (Meaning more overall procs of Shooting Star).

Reduces the cast time on: Roots, Cyclone, Healing Touch, Wrath, Starfire, Hibernate and Tranqulity.

Haste also is not an RNG (Random Number Generator).

~~~~~~~~~~~

If you want to stack pure crit because you like just running around random BGs DoTing up as 5+ people and spamming instant starsurge more power to you dude and i appreciate the feed back.

I'll make a different stat priority tonight for level 85 random bgs =)

-Nago
Reply Quote
90 Troll Druid
11620
Explaining what the stats do means nothing to someone trying to understand "WHY." Why should I choose Haste? How does it change my playstyle, does it work with my playstlye? Why should I run Haste instead of Crit?

There's a difference between reading the content of a textbook and understanding the content of a textbook.

Haste, beyond the breakpoint (as noted) is useless to me, since

Why did Fire Mages and DPS Warriors run Crit? Because the RNG was just RNG, or because said RNG had a viable increase in effectiveness beyond "simple RNG." Crit did virtually nothing in 4.3 -- Shooting Stars was 4% chance on DOT tick. Was there a viable reason to take it? Nope.

Food for thought:
Haste increases APM, fact. Haste reduces the cast time or all casted spells, fact. Juking, successful interrupts, non-HOT/DOT instant casts all make Haste USELESS, fact. Why? When you aren't benefiting from haste when your running around, juking kicks, getting kicked, CC'd, etc.

Why is Haste better than Crit/Mastery for movement? It's not. You aren't befitting from Haste as much as Crit or Mastery, beyond an almost unnoticeable GCD reduction.

Mastery uptimes? Eclipse uptime is a joke. Astral Communion completely negates the concept of "I'm not benefiting from Mastery." A 4sec channel, can be cast/channeled while moving, in addition to the Starfall reset mechanic makes Mastery uptimes near 80% in typical PvP.

Fun Fact:
As of right now, Crit gems outweigh Int gems. IIRC, Crit is 0.8:1 Int.
Edited by Cyous on 9/19/2012 12:22 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Troll Druid
8345
There's a difference between reading the content of a textbook and understanding the content of a textbook.


A textbook cannot force comprehension - that is the job of the reader.

But I'll be happy to do my best to clarify.

Why did Fire Mages and DPS Warriors run Crit? Because the RNG was just RNG, or because said RNG had a viable increase in effectiveness beyond "simple RNG." Crit did virtually nothing in 4.3 -- Shooting Stars was 4% chance on DOT tick. Was there a viable reason to take it? Nope.


You also didn't see Fire mages running around gemming crit. Nor warriors. I can't argue against mage and warrior stats though as i don't play either of those classes enough to consider my knowledge efficient.

uccessful interrupts, instant casts all make Haste USELESS, fact. Why? When you aren't benefiting from haste when your running around, juking kicks, getting kicked, CC'd, etc.


Once again, you're not just doing instant casts. if you have a 100% Juke rate against every team you have fought in arena then by all means why are you even in here?

Why is Haste better than Crit/Mastery for movement? It's not. You aren't befitting from Haste, beyond an almost unnoticeable GCD reduction.


Because your gear doesn't change mid fight depending on if you're casting or moving.

You benefit from increased amount of ticks for MF and SF. You keep forgetting to mention that little tid-bit.

Fun Fact:
As of right now, Crit gems outweigh Int gems. IIRC, Crit is 0.8:1 Int.


Sure, post the math for that =) Would greatly appreciate it so i can maintain the accuracy of the OP.

So i stand by what i said: "If you want to stack pure crit because you like just running around random BGs DoTing up as 5+ people and spamming instant starsurge more power to you dude and i appreciate the feed back."
Reply Quote
90 Troll Druid
11620
09/19/2012 12:21 PMPosted by Nagoto
You also didn't see Fire mages running around gemming crit. Nor warriors. I can't argue against mage and warrior stats though as i don't play either of those classes enough to consider my knowledge efficient.

You didn't see them gemming Haste either. Moot point, as they gemmed Int/Str respectively.

09/19/2012 12:21 PMPosted by Nagoto
You benefit from increased amount of ticks for MF and SF. You keep forgetting to mention that little tid-bit.

You benefit after a specific Haste rating. Which is COMPLETELY different than "1 Haste is better than 1 Crit." If said 1 Haste was the 1 Haste stat needed to push a major Haste breakpoint, that 1 Haste may outweigh 100 Int (not exaggerated; lvl85 for now).

09/19/2012 12:21 PMPosted by Nagoto
Sure, post the math for that =) Would greatly appreciate it so i can maintain the accuracy of the OP.

Been searching for the sim comparisons on EJ (which is far better than SimC), couldn't find it as "Stat Weights" are hard to find atm. Atm, it's (Hit Cap) - Int: 2.5; Crit: 2.0; Haste: 1.5; Mastery: 1.5 (Reforges). Actual stat weights I couldn't find and won't post random numbers, though Crit is still highly valuable (where Crit gems > Int gems).

And since Gemming is now Primary: 1, Stamina: 1.5, and Secondary: 2; Crit gems are far more valuable than Int.

09/19/2012 12:21 PMPosted by Nagoto
"If you want to stack pure crit because you like just running around random BGs DoTing up as 5+ people and spamming instant starsurge more power to you dude and i appreciate the feed back."

Subliminal insults? Thank you.
Edited by Cyous on 9/19/2012 12:48 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Troll Druid
8345
And since Gemming is now Primary: 1, Stamina: 1.5, and Secondary: 2; Crit gems are far more valuable than Int.


Referring to the stat ratio at 90 for gems? Yeah, it's the reason why I haven't done the gem and enchant section =P You started this with REFORGING.

Which I'm standing by as of now.

You're arguing from a very narrow situation.

Haste is not just a damage increase or a proc rate increase (Although it affects both).

You also keep changing what you're arguing? First play-styles, then reforge. Now the value of a pure crit gem vs a pure int vs pure haste.

Gather your thoughts then make a constructive non-aggressive post.

ONCE AGAIN:

""If you want to stack pure crit because you like just running around random BGs DoTing up as 5+ people and spamming instant starsurge more power to you dude and i appreciate the feed back."

If crit turns out to be more valuable than haste at 90 next season i'll adjust the guide accordingly.

EDIT: You also don't need to yell at others for bumped =) Got stickied!

Also a quote from another right rated moonkin Bootsy

"Haste is still a better setup 1v1, 2v2 or 3v3. You're going to have more people there to interrupt you, so you want to be able to get off your casts as fast as possible. Spread damage isn't all that reliable with hybrid healing being OP atm. Single target cast-time spells are how you kill people imo."
Edited by Nagoto on 9/19/2012 12:54 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Troll Druid
8345
STICKIED!!!! Sept 19th 2012.

Thank you so much guys for everyone who supported it! I'll do my best to keep the information updated as often and accurately as possible now through MoP and beyond.

Thank you!
Reply Quote
90 Troll Druid
11620
09/19/2012 12:47 PMPosted by Nagoto
You also keep changing what you're arguing? First play-styles, then reforge. Now the value of a pure crit gem vs a pure int vs pure haste.

There's a difference between arguing a point and replying to a statement. You asked for stat weights, I gave you reforges as I couldn't find the math to provide information regarding Haste and Mastery. (Fairly difficult to find those types of numbers, but it's determined by adding an additional stat, running a sim, recording the results and comparing the changes to find an effective increase in output through simple ratios, typically in a comparison to Int/Agi/Str first, then between Crit/Haste/Mastery).

09/19/2012 12:47 PMPosted by Nagoto
Gather your thoughts then make a constructive non-aggressive post.

Going to reply to this line by using your own words:
09/19/2012 12:21 PMPosted by Nagoto
A textbook cannot force comprehension - that is the job of the reader.

Not my fault you read feedback as "aggressive." The very nature of constructive criticism is negative to the author as it blandly says, "I don't like this. Try this instead." It's like telling an architect their designs sucks and they should try again. It's expected that you feel negatively towards this kind of feedback. So rather than sitting on the toilet with your laptop, get of your throne and argue why you feel something is better, opposed to spewing passive aggressive comments for the sake of feeling like a king.
Edited by Cyous on 9/19/2012 1:05 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Troll Druid
8345
Not my fault you read feedback as "aggressive."


I disliked you saying....

3 bumps? Contribute to the thread, or don't post. This is not a bump. This is a PS


They were just trying to be supportive. If you read further back they have made constructive comments..

So rather than sitting on the toilet with your laptop, get of your throne and argue why you feel something is better, opposed to spewing passive aggressive comments for the sake of feeling like a king.


One should expect to not have their critism taken outright - you can get angry if you want. That's fine. It's understandable when someone doesn't agree with your opnion.

I have already made my points, with my support. Whether you like them or not is your opinion.

I do thank you for the feedback, and like i said - I'll continue to research what will overall be better come 90. As of now you don't have me convinced.
If you have any further points you wish to make there is a beautiful thread going on here.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6470847658

Where a discussion is already going on.

Not a one sided mass saying Crit is 100% undisputed champion and is better than haste.

I still stand by what i said.
Edited by Nagoto on 9/19/2012 1:08 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Troll Druid
11620
I'm not trying to convince you for anything -- "Because he said so" is a terrible supporting argument by itself, which you've used on a couple of occasions. "Because he said so, and it does X, Y, and Z; at the expense of A, B, C" is a far better answer -- This is what I'm criticizing, as the guide lacks it for the most part.

Doesn't matter if you're a Multi-Glad or a world-class Dragonslayer, if you cannot explain, or do not wish to explain, then you shouldn't tell to begin with.

Guides are meant to be in depth and informative, not a classic Noxxic "5min rundown." (in terms of explanations). "Don't run pure Crit because under [common conditions], Haste will be more valuable because you'll be able to do X, Y, Z more effectively. Giving up Crit would lessen the effectiveness of [arg1, ...]. "

If you're going to teach math, explain to the students why (x + 5)² does not equal x² +25.
(x + 5)² = (x + 5)(x + 5) = (x)(x) + (5)(x) + (x)(5) + (5)(5) = x² +10x + 25
Edited by Cyous on 9/19/2012 1:35 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Druid
0
Eww... it just got sticky in here...
Reply Quote
90 Troll Druid
8345
I'm not trying to convince you for anything -- "Because he said so" is a terrible supporting argument by itself, which you've used on a couple of occasions. "Because he said so, and it does X, Y, and Z; at the expense of A, B, C" is a far better answer -- This is what I'm criticizing, as the guide lacks it for the most part.

Doesn't matter if you're a Multi-Glad or a world-class Dragonslayer, if you cannot explain, or do not wish to explain, then you shouldn't tell to begin with.

Guides are meant to be in depth and informative, not a classic Noxxic "5min rundown." (in terms of explanations)

If you're going to teach it, make sure the people in the very back of the class can hear you word for word.


-Sigh- Ok once again.

I Nagoto personaly pick Haste over Crit because Haste benefits EVERYTHING we do at ALL times during matches, movment or stationary. Haste affects our GCD which crit does not. Haste affects the amount of ticks in a MF / SF which crit does not. Haste affects the amount of Rejuv ticks, crit does not. Haste affects the cast time of: Wrath, Starfire, Cyclone, Roots, Hibernate, Healing touch and Tranquility. With out increased dependence on off healing haste will further increase in value. In addition our DIRECT damage will be more prominent for kills over our weaker spread DoT damage now - due to the nerf to our DoT duration.

Crit affects DoT ticks, direct damage and healing as well. This does not out weigh the increased cast time from haste, and the overall benefit it provides.

It's not MY OPINION that haste benefits you more. It's 100% a FACT.

Crit: RNG Chance to increase the damage of your DoT Ticks, direct damage and healing.

Haste: Reduced Cast time, Reduced GCD. Increased amount of DoT and HoT ticks. Overall Means less times kicked, more damage, more healing. More CC landed. More kills. More wins.

All of these points I have said all ready. I'm not sure what else you wish for me to explain in different wording?
Reply Quote
the reason that some things are "because he said so" is because either a.) there is insufficient information, or b.) nobody has bothered to test and post said stat weights with proper backing information. This guide is generally aimed towards the way things will be at 90, why we are arguing stats that will be fairly moot come Tuesday makes little sense. Once we are at 90 and more people have had time to crunch the ratings comparisons this will have been a silly argument.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Druid
8345
the reason that some things are "because he said so" is because either a.) there is insufficient information, or b.) nobody has bothered to test and post said stat weights with proper backing information. This guide is generally aimed towards the way things will be at 90, why we are arguing stats that will be fairly moot come Tuesday makes little sense. Once we are at 90 and more people have had time to crunch the ratings comparisons this will have been a silly argument.


THIS 100% <3333
Reply Quote
90 Troll Druid
11620
09/19/2012 01:33 PMPosted by Nagoto
All of these points I have said all ready. I'm not sure what else you wish for me to explain in different wording?

You seem to be missing the point. Everything is subject to opinion, yes, but why you pick something over another something needs to be explained. To keep it short, if I question your opinion, as I have, then we discuss the perks and shortcomings of each build/playstyle. If you give your reasoning, I can compare it to my reasoning and possibly sway my opinion.

This is how guides work: they teach, not lecture.

Friendly Tip:
You may bold strings and you may double bold strings, hard to see different sections when scrolling. Might be something to consider for easier/quicker navigation.

(Trying to be as non-aggressive as possible, but I can't give you flowers over the internet, or can I?)
__ .---.
__ / ` .-.7,--.
/ `. .-''. -, , \
'--.- -; | ) /
,` / \ ,_) / '-.
/ ( ( | / .' ) \
'. `--,/ .---' ,-.|
`--. / '-, -' .'
.==,=; `-,.;--'
/ ,' _;--;|
/_...=' ||
|| .==,=.
||/ '.\
,||`'=...__\
||
||
||,
||
||
||
Edited by Cyous on 9/19/2012 1:52 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Troll Druid
8345
Friendly Tip:
You may bold strings and you may double bold strings, hard to see different sections when scrolling. Might be something to consider for easier/quicker navigation.


Thanks for the tip, how do i double bold? o_O those both sort of look the same to me erm.. maybe i'm just derpy today.
Reply Quote
MVP - World of Warcraft
100 Night Elf Druid
14205
Forum sticky guides don't need to be quite as detailed as places where hardcore players get their info, as the target audience for forum sticky guides is usually beginners. Off-site guides can be longer because they allow for generally better formatting options. I don't mind things that are less detailed being here, as long as they are grounded in something reasonable.

It may be nice to include links for people to find more off-forum details, however, if there are more complete PvP guides other places. As long as the OP takes suggestions into consideration and works to keep the guide as up to date as possible, I'm fine with having it stickied instead of having to keep bumping and having people constantly looking for where to get the basics.
Edited by Lissanna on 9/19/2012 2:42 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Troll Druid
11620
09/19/2012 02:07 PMPosted by Nagoto
Thanks for the tip, how do i double bold? o_O those both sort of look the same to me erm.. maybe i'm just derpy today.


using BBC, bold twice.

Bold2....Bold1
[ b ][ b ]Bold2..[ /b ]..Bold1[ /b ] (without the spaces)
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]