Ask Creative Development — Round III Answers

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09/05/2012 02:15 PMPosted by Sabatieni
And we see nothing like it in Silverpine and Hillsbrad, and this Cdev answer explained is that the reason we don't is because the Forsaken control them until their goals are accomplished before offering them the choice, and even then the choice is "serve us or die." No "or do your own thing" anymore.

This is, in fact, wrong. Some of the newly risen Forsaken on Fenris Isle run away.

In any case, they were already casualties of war.
10 Night Elf Hunter
60
Elune being a Naaru, associated with a Naaru, having anything to do with Naaru is absolutely the most piss-poor story telling that could ever happen. Not everything in the wow universe needs to be tied together in some big happy web. Unique things need to exist, distinction needs to exist. The Draenei story in general is one giant, poorly done retcon that ended in BC and should remain dead so long as Naaru and Velen and this ridiculous Army of Light continue to be all they bring to the table. I'd rather see the Draenei go full on Shamanistic, and realise the elements, nature and their ancestors do more for helping them fight their enemies that those useless, humming, heap of garbage crystals ever have.
I rather enjoyed the Light being something akin to a nature force tapped in not by sheer willpower and mental domination like the arcane but rather pure spirit. Now it's a bunch of humming shards of telepathic happiness. Rather than have the Naaru get some spotlight as "divine beings" of which they certainly aren't, throw them in as Titan constructs. Titan lore is interesting, Titan lore needs development, Titan lore isn't about a bunch of glowing crystals leading a super awesome army of light with a messiah.
100 Dwarf Warrior
18175
09/05/2012 03:44 PMPosted by Koori
What a fascinating thread! I love learning about lore, thank you for posting! Saw this was #3, search found me #2 … where might I find #1? Thank you so much for doing this!
http://www.wowpedia.org/Ask_CDev
91 Night Elf Druid
9065
09/05/2012 03:19 PMPosted by Abal


No. The ancients are physical beings. The only pure spirit one I can think of is aveena


They're referred to as Loa by the Trolls. They also have died, continued to exist in spirit form in the Emerald Dream, and then returned in physical form after a period of time. I would say that the Ancients are a mix of the spiritual and physical.


Wisps are refereed to as Loa. Ancients? we have not seen one way or the other.

They can exist in the Emerald Dream without a body, yes.

So can normal people.
100 Night Elf Hunter
6150
I'd like someone to ask Velen why he didn't see the rise of the Horde on Draenor 'Where were you, Prophet? Fall asleep or looking at your female guards butts?'
63 Draenei Paladin
1680
I truly do not like that they hinted at Elune being a Naaru. Please Blizzard don't connect them like this. The Naaru are not "Gods/Goddess" in the Warcraft universe right? I remeber them just being similar to an angel like being that works with the light, hence why they can corrupt into void beings and then be reborn as light again.Let Elune stay a Goddess. Maybe she actually leads the Naaru, but please don't let her be one.


Where does it state that the bigger Naaru aren't Gods. Smaller Naaru like K'ure are said by Velen to not be gods he never said anything about the bigger Naaru like M'uru(his void form's model is even named Void God), O'ros and A'dal and as far as I know the WoW encyclopedia only said the Titans wern't gods so where are you getting the idea that the bigger Naaru aren't Gods?
Edited by Archpaladin on 9/5/2012 4:07 PM PDT
100 Night Elf Hunter
6150


They're referred to as Loa by the Trolls. They also have died, continued to exist in spirit form in the Emerald Dream, and then returned in physical form after a period of time. I would say that the Ancients are a mix of the spiritual and physical.


Wisps are refereed to as Loa. Ancients? we have not seen one way or the other.

They can exist in the Emerald Dream without a body, yes.

So can normal people.


Druids. Aren't they required to spend time in the Emerald Dream? And Ysera spent millennium in the Emerald Dream too.
100 Night Elf Hunter
6150
09/05/2012 04:06 PMPosted by Archpaladin
I truly do not like that they hinted at Elune being a Naaru. Please Blizzard don't connect them like this. The Naaru are not "Gods/Goddess" in the Warcraft universe right? I remeber them just being similar to an angel like being that works with the light, hence why they can corrupt into void beings and then be reborn as light again.Let Elune stay a Goddess. Maybe she actually leads the Naaru, but please don't let her be one.


Where does it state that the bigger Naaru aren't Gods. Smaller Naaru like K'ure are said by Velen to not be gods he never said anything about the bigger Naaru like M'uru(his void form's model is even named Void God), O'ros and A'dal and as far as I know the WoW encyclopedia only said the Titans wern't gods so where are you getting the idea that the bigger Naaru aren't Gods?


I believe they refuse and hate being refereed to as gods.
90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
The Euro CDev thread has a lot of Night Elf hate. I mimic their response.

Happy?

Because they're butchering one of the main tenets of Night Elf lore, one of the things that defines them as an individual race?

This, coupled with their continued humanisation and lack of story development. You may as well just have done with it and leave them as Purple Humans with long ears.


This so much.

We don't want hippy peace and love humanesque light- we want feral, agressive warrior women with druids and s___. Why not have something unique? Why can't there be something special for the other races? We want to hear about a refined yet slightly savage religion, with all it's naturalistic overtones, that definitely wants to support its own chosen group. We don't want to hear that actually, it's an offshoot of the light, with it's peace and "honour" (souped up cowardice). Also, well, it means that the main basics of Night elf society is totally and horribly wrong- no matter how many times we've been told it is what it is, it's all totally wrong. And when the rest of night elf society seems to be "wrong unless it's druids telling you to spare your enemies", it damn well sucks.


Maievs has it bang on. You don't have to arbitrarily link every force of 'good' and 'evil' entity under the same banner ... it's actually perfectly possible to have Elune and the naaru as separate deities! Btw the Naaru/Legion Good/Evil deal is incredibly dull and uninspired in the first place but that's another matter.


I'm basically in the camp that if Elune is a Naaru I'll probably be done with this race, proably the game. I'm sick of the humanization of the Night Elves. Make them what they were in WC3.
92 Night Elf Druid
10425
09/05/2012 11:29 AMPosted by Vyrin
I think it is pretty clear what they meant. Clever manipulation of a weakened mind is not the same as mind control. It still means that Sylvanas, in particular, is a rotten person, but she is different from the Lich King. The Forsaken are about manipulation where as the Lich King was about domination.


Manipulation of another person's mind to take advantage of an affliction that you instilled on them for the purpose of weakening their mind is still mind control. It's brainwashing, and it still indicates that those that the Forsaken raise do not have agency until after they've already done everything the Forsaken want them to do.

The Lich King and the Scourge were far more effective than the Forsaken have been. Plus, we know several examples of the undead, such as Sylvanas, that would have immediately rebelled against the Lich King if mind control wasn't employed.


That's not how it's been portrayed at all; the Forsaken have been very effective so long as their necromancy and plague works; when they stop working is when they start having problems and the Scourge would've had the same problems.

And we don't know that Sylvanas would've immediately rebelled; apparently undead upon being raised DON'T immediately rebel and do exactly what the people who raised them want even without mind control. So why did the Scourge employ mind control?

The way I see this working, based on what the CDevs wrote, is this:

Some undead, when raised under a state of high emotional stress (such as an invasion or battle) come to unlife under a rage-state. Their perspective is clouded by a red haze of adrenaline, emotion and the after-effects of resurrection and they may not even realize that they're undead; in this state all they know is they were dead and now they're alive, no real knowledge of who raised them or which side they're fighting. From there, they're pointed at a target and told 'go kill' and they charge, not knowing it's their former allies they're attacking until the haze lifts.

The process is likely more complicated than that, but that's how I envision it.
10 Night Elf Hunter
60
09/05/2012 04:06 PMPosted by Archpaladin
I truly do not like that they hinted at Elune being a Naaru. Please Blizzard don't connect them like this. The Naaru are not "Gods/Goddess" in the Warcraft universe right? I remeber them just being similar to an angel like being that works with the light, hence why they can corrupt into void beings and then be reborn as light again.Let Elune stay a Goddess. Maybe she actually leads the Naaru, but please don't let her be one.


Where does it state that the bigger Naaru aren't Gods. Smaller Naaru like K'ure are said by Velen to not be gods he never said anything about the bigger Naaru like M'uru(his void form's model is even named Void God), O'ros and A'dal and as far as I know the WoW encyclopedia only said the Titans wern't gods so where are you getting the idea that the bigger Naaru aren't Gods?
The Naaru aren't Gods. At all. They are Naaru, and compared to the Titans, they haven't done anything of merit. Compared to Elune, Old Gods, Loas, etc. beings identified as *Gods* they do have worship dedicated to them. They are beings, they aren't eternal, they are killable and corruptable. Think of them as being in the same league as ethereals, except using the Light rather than Arcane as their "form".

Blizz has the final say but this would be the final nail in the coffin for night elf lore as we knew it.
10 Night Elf Hunter
60
09/05/2012 04:16 PMPosted by Melyria
I'm basically in the camp that if Elune is a Naaru I'll probably be done with this race, proably the game. I'm sick of the humanization of the Night Elves. Make them what they were in WC3.
You're not the only one. Every last bit of distinction is stripped away from a race that was supposed to have not only the oldest culture in Azeroth, but the best recorded at that. They are no longer a distinct line, just evolved Trolls. They weren't the ones who fought valiantly and defeated the Legion that their queen invited, it was a ragtag group of tauren, earthen, furbolgs lead by a time traveling human and bolstered by a time traveling orc. And now they want to tear apart Elune. Associating the central core of Night Elf society from the very start with some horribly implemented retcon that only exist because they needed to put something in Outland and the WC3 Draenei weren't good enough.

Take it akin to we know the history of Rome, Romans wrote it down, all this stuff is there for us to see and their descendants still live the language is still known. Yet, despite all this, they are gona scrap it and say "Rome was founded by the Chinese"

How much complaining has to be done by those of us whom are actual night elf fans to have something go our way with respect to OUR favoured race in this bloody story? Why are they listening to people who don't care about the race, hate the race, enjoy seeing it dismantled, and so on?
Edited by Suraia on 9/5/2012 4:27 PM PDT
90 Worgen Rogue
15605
Seriously Blizz. Just...just make Night Elves go all out neutral or something and join the Argent Crusade. Or have Teldrassil float away and settle in the moon along with all Night Elves and have all Night Elf PCs magically turn into High Elves.

Yeah, yeah make Teldrassil, Nordrassil, Hyjal, Moonglade, the Ancients and all that cool stuff float away. And don't touch them ever again.

The 'deities' and religions in this game are a revolting mess of Childhood's End with Fifty Shades of Grey/Twilight Series style of writing (smut included).

I think you guys are just letting Wei Wang do the writing now or something. Dude can't be happy without dead Night Elves.
Edited by Ilthen on 9/5/2012 4:33 PM PDT
92 Night Elf Druid
10425
Undead starting area.

One person joins the Forsaken, one has a "I'M NOT A MONSTER! /flee" reaction and goes off on her own and one turns against the Forsaken.


And we see nothing like it in Silverpine and Hillsbrad, and this Cdev answer explained is that the reason we don't is because the Forsaken control them until their goals are accomplished before offering them the choice, and even then the choice is "serve us or die." No "or do your own thing" anymore.

Those are vastly different scenarios. In Silverpine/Hillsbrad, you're in the middle of a battle; in the starting area, you're in a graveyard with no actively hostile forces around. What the CDev is saying is that those raised in Silverpine/Hillsbrad are raised in a state where they are not in complete control of their faculties; the Forsaken exploit this and have them attack their former allies then, once the new undead comes back to their senses, they make the offer of 'join us or stay dead.'

In the starting area, you're in complete control of your senses and able to think rationally, in other areas you're not.
90 Draenei Shaman
11990
09/05/2012 04:05 PMPosted by Kynrind
I'd like someone to ask Velen why he didn't see the rise of the Horde on Draenor 'Where were you, Prophet? Fall asleep or looking at your female guards butts?'


I would assume its the same explenation as why he didnt predict the cataclysm. Velen sees possibilities. Meaning I am sure he saw many various one where the Horde didnt attack, the Horde did but got defeated etc.

Back on topic certainly nice read and it does explain some of the lore question that have been raging for well, since vanilla.

I'm also EXTREMELY glad they explain the lore behind Rustberg Village. So its basically a pirate den, it certain makes it easier for me to justify killing them :p
Edited by Zerde on 9/5/2012 4:38 PM PDT
100 Draenei Paladin
11575
Haha yes good, Sabellian is still alive. I don't know why I've latched onto him so much, considering he does almost nothing, but it'll be fun to see if somewhere down the line something eventually happens with him.

Also... I'm going digging in Tirisfal Glades, and you can't stop me. Southern Barrens, too. Who's with me?
91 Night Elf Druid
9065
The Euro CDev thread has a lot of Night Elf hate. I mimic their response.



This so much.

We don't want hippy peace and love humanesque light- we want feral, agressive warrior women with druids and s___. Why not have something unique? Why can't there be something special for the other races? We want to hear about a refined yet slightly savage religion, with all it's naturalistic overtones, that definitely wants to support its own chosen group. We don't want to hear that actually, it's an offshoot of the light, with it's peace and "honour" (souped up cowardice). Also, well, it means that the main basics of Night elf society is totally and horribly wrong- no matter how many times we've been told it is what it is, it's all totally wrong. And when the rest of night elf society seems to be "wrong unless it's druids telling you to spare your enemies", it damn well sucks.


Maievs has it bang on. You don't have to arbitrarily link every force of 'good' and 'evil' entity under the same banner ... it's actually perfectly possible to have Elune and the naaru as separate deities! Btw the Naaru/Legion Good/Evil deal is incredibly dull and uninspired in the first place but that's another matter.


I'm basically in the camp that if Elune is a Naaru I'll probably be done with this race, proably the game. I'm sick of the humanization of the Night Elves. Make them what they were in WC3.


Why wait?

My subscription ends on Saturday.
As someone who played a Night Elf main up until wrath, and still consider himself a Night Elf fan up until Cataclysm, when their society just became too disfunctional to admire, This is a supremely depressing CDev. We learn that a lot of their power and flavor in WC3 was the result of alliances of convenience, and that Cenarius is being willfully ignorant/hyper-neutral of the Orcs grevious crimes against nature in Ashenvale, Azshara, Stonetalon, and etc. To top it off, we recieve yet another hint that Elune, far from being a wild, beautiful, ferocious nature goddess, is yet another scion of The Light. The Night Elves had so much potential WCIII, and it's very sad to see it constantly squandered. It's especially disappointing that these answers suggest that Cenarius and the rest of the Ancients will stay neutral, rather than help the Night Elves free Kalimdor from the Horde in the post-Hyjal era as we once hoped.

As far as the Sylvanas answer goes, I can't help but think it's either Brilliant or Horrible. It solves nothing.

For Sylvanas, it's a sure sign that Sylvanas is not evil, that she simply gives the Risen the choice of servitude.

For Alliance, it's a sign she's evil. She kills people, raises them against their will, and then exploits their necromantically-induced pain and anger to sic them on their friends and comrades. Then, when they come to their senses and grasp what they've done, she threatens to kill them unless they serve her. All this seems to pretty clearly make her a manipulative autocratic dictator and slavemaster, and just as evil, if not more so, as when we assumed she used straight up mind control. The Forsaken are basically North Korea now, at best.

So if it was meant to fan the flames and keep the argument going, it was brilliant. If it was meant to end the argument, it was horrible.

On stuff I liked:

I liked the Garithos answer. Not only do we establish that he was a native of Lordaeron and his army was also fellow natives, we also establish that he was basically the highest ranking person not dead and not as important as some Horde like to argue. Also, it establishes that his army was one of refugees and survivors who just trying to survive and take their homes back, and may have not been directly as involved in his racist theories and beliefs as he was. In other words, we have confirmation that Sylvanas murdered the people of Lordaeron in cold blood, which puts the lie to her insistence in modern times that the Forsaken are the true sons and daughters of Lordaeron, patriots simply trying to keep their hold on their ancestral land. They are as much thieves and robbers as rightful inhabitants, guilty of fratricide on a staggering scale.

I liked the answer for the Harvest Witches too. Even as CDev is slowly turning the Night Elves into yet another band of Light Worshippers, giving the Gilneans their own unique pagan magics and beliefs is a welcome bit of diversity, and I love that its specifically NOT druidism. It's a bit of a bummer that it was completely absorbed by druidism, but at least it was there.

Also, Kudos on the Med'an answer, which is basically "Med'an died on his way to his home planet" without completely decanonizing him. The "wonderfully unique" line made me chuckle.
Edited by Jaelara on 9/5/2012 4:44 PM PDT
10 Night Elf Hunter
60
09/05/2012 04:31 PMPosted by Ilthen
Seriously Blizz. Just...just make Night Elves go all out neutral or something and join the Argent Crusade. Or have Teldrassil float away and settle in the moon along with all Night Elves and have all Night Elf PCs magically turn into High Elves.
No, I'd rather have my sub refunded for the years wasted playing night elves for the lore they dashed to pieces so they could give every other race in the game a better story.
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