Mana Return for All Healers!

90 Tauren Druid
15990
This thread discusses how only a select few healing classes get a non-spellcast form of mana return while the rest of the healing classes rely on spirit/self cds alone.

This thread is NOT referring to the following spells:
Mana Tide Totem
Innervate
Hymn of Hope
Divine Plea

I am referring to Resto Shamans and Disc priests specifically. These two classes/specs still have a form of mana return unavailable to other healing classes. Resto Shamans get Water Shield to restore mana, and Disc Priests regen mana from Rapture.

I am not asking that replenishment be brought back, in fact, I am glad it is gone since it was, in my opinion, a wasteful mana return mechanic.

I simply want ALL classes to get a form of what RShamans/DiscPriests get. Resto druids USED to get Revitalize (12% chance on LB/rejuve tick to regain 2% max mana with 20sec cd) but it was removed in 5.0.4.

I just think it is unfair that not all healing classes can recieve a small amount of bonus mana regen.

Thoughts?
Edited by Pathorien on 9/2/2012 7:37 PM PDT
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85 Night Elf Druid
0
If we're going to give all the specs something on top of spirit regen, for balance reasons we'd need to give them all the same mechanic, with identical mana returns. Personally, I'd rather just remove all non-spirit regen sources, other than mana CDs.
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85 Dwarf Priest
9125
I think all mana regen should be based off of spirit.

In addition, I think each class should have one sort of passive-active mechanic that is built in that they need to manage for mana (Disc Priest Rapture).

Also, I think each spec should have one 'OMG I NEED MANA NOW BUTTON' for emergencies on a lengthy cooldown.
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90 Tauren Druid
15990
That is an interesting point, but at level 90 with the high mana cost of heals, a little something extra for healing classes besides spirit regen/personal cds would be helpful.. specifically something that you don't always need to monitor.

Even with a passive 2% mana regen every 20seconds is only 6k mana (at lvl 90) every 20 seconds. That is still enough to help a healer who might be oom with mana cds on cd, that 6k mana might be the difference between a wipe / kill.

They could keep the mana procs in sync with heals.. so that you have to use mana to get some mana back.
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90 Tauren Druid
15990
@Craftydeer

I hadn't thought of a lengthy cd for instantaneous mana.. like a 10minute cd for 35% mana or something (since most boss fights don't last 10minutes anyways, itll be a once per fight type of cd.) And if Blizz were to implement this, probably not put it in pvp.
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100 Tauren Shaman
HC
17885
I'm confused. Does it truly matter? I honestly don't think it does. Every healer has different ways to get mana what would the point of this be? You can't just look at 2 abilities and determine all healers need them. That's like me saying Holy Paladins have too many free heals, every healer should have them. Same with druids OOC.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the point of this thread :s.
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85 Night Elf Druid
0
09/02/2012 08:09 PMPosted by Pathorien
That is an interesting point, but at level 90 with the high mana cost of heals, a little something extra for healing classes besides spirit regen/personal cds would be helpful.. specifically something that you don't always need to monitor.


No, it wouldn't. If mana becomes a serious concern, the devs can just up the gains from spirit. There's absolutely no reason to have multiple passive mana sources. Adding an active mana mechanic is fine, provided it is shared between all six specs, and it requires skill to use properly (as in, it takes more effort than spamming a damage spell in your free time).
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90 Tauren Druid
15990
Maybe, if they upped the amount of regen from spirit from 50% to 75% and take away passive mana regen procs (i understand priests need rapture due to how much their shields cost) then it might make the difference needed.

Do holy priests still get more mana regen from spirit? I know they did pre5.0.4 but havent checked recently.

Oh, I wasn't saying multiple passive mana returns for healers, just 1 each to help out a little.
Edited by Pathorien on 9/2/2012 8:37 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Priest
15125
simply want ALL classes to get a form of what RShamans/DiscPriests get. Resto druids USED to get Revitalize (12% chance on LB/rejuve tick to regain 2% max mana with 20sec cd) but it was removed in 5.0.4.

I just think it is unfair that not all healing classes can recieve a small amount of bonus mana regen.


It's not exactly regen. The rapture mechanic isn't net positive anymore. It's just there to discourage shield spamming, but allow periodic shield use.

Water Shield looks to be the source of Shaman base regen. Healers get 2% mp5 just for being there; Shaman have to be there and have water shield up. They get more mana if they get hit, but they have to get hit for that.
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90 Tauren Shaman
15790
Take a careful look at what you are arguing for.

If I've read this thread correctly, you are essentially asking for healer homogenisation, which is a n occurrence blizzard have specifically stated they never want to do, because A. Its not fun, and B. Its more annoying to balance than non-homogenised healers.

If you take away Water Shield, Shaman regen would be significantly lower than druids or paladins. Take away Rapture and you get the same thing for Disc priests. Then you have to lower the base mana cost of their spells, which leads to higher HPM, which requires better encounter tuning for the new healer capabilities, and so on.

Individual differences between healers aren't an issue, it's what makes different healing classes more fun to play. Personally, I find my holy pally's ability to regenerate almost half a mana bar with Divine Plea ridiculous. But when I look at logs from my shaman, the amount of regen I gain from Resurgence is ridiculous.

Because different classes have different regeneration mechanics, Blizzard can look statistically and say 'Oh, hey, it looks like Disc Priests literally cannot go oom ever, but Holy Priests are fine,' then they can make an appropriate change to Rapture, instead of realigning spirit values like you suggest and causing giant issues down the pipeline for other classes.
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85 Night Elf Druid
0
09/02/2012 08:32 PMPosted by Pathorien
Oh, I wasn't saying multiple passive mana returns for healers, just 1 each to help out a little.


Spirit is passive regen. Spirit + 1 is multiple passive regen sources.

Or am I crazy?

09/02/2012 09:12 PMPosted by Convictfish
If you take away Water Shield, Shaman regen would be significantly lower than druids or paladins.


How so? Druids and paladins only get 50% combat regen, shaman get 50% combat regen plus Water Shield.

09/02/2012 09:12 PMPosted by Convictfish
If I've read this thread correctly, you are essentially asking for healer homogenisation, which is a n occurrence blizzard have specifically stated they never want to do, because A. Its not fun, and B. Its more annoying to balance than non-homogenised healers.


Regen homogenization is essential, and does not necessarily mean every healer has to cast X once every 30 seconds to receive Y Mp5. All it means is that every healer will, when played optimally, receive Y Mp5.

The methods can be totally different, so long as the result is the same. Thus far the result hasn't been the same, and that's led to Holy priests and Shaman being mana starved while Druids and Disc priests scoff at the thought of even looking at their mana bar.

And I have no idea how homogenized regen would be more difficult to balance than the heterogeneous system we had in Cata.
Edited by Anarri on 9/2/2012 9:45 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Shaman
0
This thread is NOT referring to the following spells:
Mana Tide Totem
Innervate
Hymn of Hope
Divine Plea


Why are we NOT talking about these spells? Personally it would be very important to include them for the following reasons:
Notice that two of these (Innervate, Divine Plea) are for personal use and the other two are for the whole raid (Mana Tide, Hymn). Now look at the classes you are complaining about. See how it kind of balances out?
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85 Night Elf Druid
0
09/02/2012 09:48 PMPosted by Jabble
Why are we NOT talking about these spells?


I agree. They need to be homogenized.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7430
09/02/2012 09:53 PMPosted by Anarri
I agree. They need to be homogenized.


Yep. Hymn is awful, I truly hate it. Stupid Warlocks and Mages getting the mana instead. Make it all for me or put it into my passive regen.

Mana Tide is way better (for the raid...) but it doesn't mean it's fun being a buff bot. MTT is so vanilla, like, get rid of it or make it a Shamans innervate.
Edited by Qùess on 9/2/2012 10:00 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Priest
5310
Trust me, you don't want Hymn of Hope. It barely gives any mana return, it's channeled (I rarely pull one off during many boss fights), and it doesn't necessarily give me any mana. I barely see any difference after casting it.

Otherwise we get to constantly cast a dps spell for .7% mana, cast a dps ability every single minute or almost certainly go oom, or rely on a random proc.

I don't mind the new mana in general, I just want less disruptive ways to regen it
Edited by Kirse on 9/2/2012 10:27 PM PDT
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100 Draenei Shaman
17385
While we're at it can we give my priest and druid blood lust?

I mean it is only fair right?

Oh and shields

And I want to wear plate b/c whats the fun if all the healer are slightly different?
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12745
Water Shield balances shaman exorbitant spell costs in the same way Holy Power/Beacon balances paladin exorbitant spell costs (honestly, I think it would be better for shamans mechanically to get rid of WS and cut their spell costs by about 15% across the board, but they'd lose flavor and sparkles).

Rapture in MoP isn't regen, it's basically a 'cooldown' on routine use of PWS. Every 12 seconds, you get to use the 'with Rapture' version as an efficient heal, and the rest of the time, it's a Flash Heal equivalent. (For this purpose, the Rapture return really ought to be static, but...well, I'm not GC. The Spirit scaling was added back when they were still trying to make it work as a regen mechanic, and wasn't removed when they gave up.)

Oh, and nobody wants Hymn of Hope. I was almost sad when they gave it back to Holy.
Edited by Kaels on 9/3/2012 12:40 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Priest
16820
Water Shield balances shaman exorbitant spell costs in the same way Holy Power/Beacon balances paladin exorbitant spell costs (honestly, I think it would be better for shamans mechanically to get rid of WS and cut their spell costs by about 15% across the board, but they'd lose flavor and sparkles).

Rapture in MoP isn't regen, it's basically a 'cooldown' on routine use of PWS. Every 12 seconds, you get to use the 'with Rapture' version as an efficient heal, and the rest of the time, it's a Flash Heal equivalent. (For this purpose, the Rapture return really ought to be static, but...well, I'm not GC. The Spirit scaling was added back when they were still trying to make it work as a regen mechanic, and wasn't removed when they gave up.)

Oh, and nobody wants Hymn of Hope. I was almost sad when they gave it back to Holy.

Nailed it.

Rapture atm restores barely anything and it's not mana positive. Both Rapture and Resurgence should be viewed as occasional discounts of the spells that proc them.

Also I think the only mana positive Resurgence is from a Healing Wave crit but I could be forgetting something.

And yes - Holy Paladins have Holy Power, Resto Druids get Clearcasting (and Monks get Chi!). So ultimately all healers have some sort of roundabout "mana savings" tool, but none of these are forms of regen.
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90 Human Paladin
13710
Call me crazy, but I actually don't mind the new changes to mana-levels.

Some might say, 'You're a Holy Paladin! Mana regen isn't an issue for you'; that being said, the new changes are going to really force healers to THINK about more than just keeping people alive. One thing that I've always taken pride in, on all my healers (I have one of each), is being able to keep people alive, pull my weight, and never go OOM unless the $#!% hits the fan and I have to start spamming inefficient heals.

None of you can sit there and honestly say to me that you've never once stopped and picked your jaw back up because you see a healer go OOM so fast, and their numbers are absolutely horrible.

This change is a phenomenal way for people to really be able to distinguish the good healers from the bad, in my opinion of course (much like a 'good' DPS pulls insane numbers, and a 'good' tank never loses threat and mitigates well; there's a easy way to notice these things, not so much with healers). A good healer will keep people alive, pull good numbers and not run out of mana. A bad healer might keep people alive but will run out of mana faster than any of us could imagine.

At this point in the lifetime of World of Warcraft, it's safe for all of us to be able to say that Blizzard makes changes that they feel are for the betterment of the game. It doesn't matter what we think, say or theorycraft...if Blizzard wants things to be a certain way, well, then that's the way they're going to be. We need to either adapt, or play something else.
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