Prot pally rotation and avoidance

90 Draenei Paladin
5700
its seems to me that single and multi target rotations have combines now. unless someone has something else my rotations go.

J AS HotR-HW C HotR-J SotR HotR - HW C HotR - J AS HotR - SotR HW C HotR -J SotR HotR - HW C HotR

2 - 3 -4 SotR 2 - 3 - 5 - SotR 3 - 4 SotR 2 - 3

J AS HotR-SotR HW C HotR-J SotR HotR - HW C HotR - J AS HotR - SotR HW C HotR - J SotR HotR.

5 - SotR 3 - 4 SotR 2 - 3 - 5 - SotR 3 - 4 SotR 2- 3

Ive also ready that parry dodge mast are new stat priorities... does anyone have a macro for avoidance now for 5.0.4?

the initial post has been edited so that everyone can see my true 3235 rotation
Edited by Genmushu on 9/4/2012 7:46 AM PDT
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85 Human Paladin
7460
Even on Single you want to throw in a HotR in once every 30 seconds because CS doesn't cause weakened blows.

Dodge, parry, and block are all on separate rolls iirc so having an avoidance macro doesn't mean the same thing as pre 5.0.4

There are two ways to reforge.

Found this on a blog written by theck who is a contributor to maintankadin who does a lot of number crunching for the benefit of the people who play Prot Paladins.

http://sacredduty.net/
Stat weights values vary sensitively with gear, but the general rule of thumb is that for maximum TDR, Dodge=Parry>Mastery>Hit>Exp>Haste.

For a more control-oriented gearing schema (which is what I plan on using), I’d prioritize Hit>Exp>Mastery/Dodge/Parry/Haste.
Edited by Fangthane on 9/3/2012 5:50 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
13465
I assume your rotation assumes you're using J ans AS as you approach? Also, you should be using Cons ahead of HW.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
15860
why are you waiting for 5 to shotr
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
09/03/2012 05:52 PMPosted by Ðemolition
why are you waiting for 5 to shotr


So that in case of an emergency you have 2 holy power banked to CS/J for a third and use either another SotR to entend the 3second buff or to use a WoG.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
So that in case of an emergency you have 2 holy power banked to CS/J for a third and use either another SotR to entend the 3second buff or to use a WoG.


Waiting strictly for 5HP to ShoR doesn't make a difference in this. As long as you have 3 HP and are going to be hitting a generator next gcd, it makes no difference. All "banking" requires is that you aren't hitting theb utton the instant you get 3 HP.
Edited by Slashlove on 9/3/2012 6:10 PM PDT
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Waiting strictly for 5HP to ShoR doesn't make a difference in this. As long as you have 3 HP and are going to be hitting a generator next gcd, it makes no difference.


If you use it at 3 holy power you will be unable to use SotR for at least 4.5 seconds and your WoG will be significantly weaker.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
If you use it at 3 holy power you will be unable to use SotR for at least 4.5 seconds and your WoG will be significantly weaker.


No, think this through.

as you have 3 HP and are going to be hitting a generator next gcd

At the end of the day, your "6th" Holy Power in this timeslice is at the same time, regardless of when you hit the ShoR. Your WoG strength is going to be unaffected.
Edited by Slashlove on 9/3/2012 6:16 PM PDT
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
09/03/2012 06:15 PMPosted by Slashlove
If you use it at 3 holy power you will be unable to use SotR for at least 4.5 seconds and your WoG will be significantly weaker.


No, think this through.

as you have 3 HP and are going to be hitting a generator next gcd

At the end of the day, your "6th" Holy Power in this timeslice is at the same time, regardless of when you hit the ShoR. Your WoG strength is going to be unaffected.


Okay you have 5 holy power, you use SotR you are now at two. One CS and you can SotR again adding time to SotR buff or you can have a 2hp WoG the instant you cast SotR or can CS and then use a 3HP WoG for more healing.

Going only to 3 you are out of HP after SotR and at best would need a CS/J/GCAS to use SotR again and you would have 0 hp coming out of the SotR for a wog or at most 1 hp if you have time for a CS strike versus a 3 hp WoG.

Going for 5holy power you still SotR after every 3rd HP generator except you have 2 in reserve at all times.

What am i missing?

Edit: im sure you are gonna school me over something i overlooked but got a paper to write so ill have to reply tomorrow.
Edited by Celyndrashad on 9/3/2012 6:34 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Warrior
15860
Okay you have 5 holy power, you use SotR you are now at two. One CS and you can SotR again adding time to SotR buff or you can have a 2hp WoG the instant you cast SotR or can CS and then use a 3HP WoG for more healing.

Going only to 3 you are out of HP after SotR and at best would need a CS/J/GCAS to use SotR again and you would have 0 hp coming out of the SotR for a wog or at most 1 hp if you have time for a CS strike versus a 3 hp WoG.


From 0 holy power (ie the pull), the 6th point of holy power will always happen at the same time no matter if you slam at 3 or 5.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Okay you have 5 holy power, you use SotR you are now at two. One CS and you can SotR again adding time to SotR buff or you can have a 2hp WoG the instant you cast SotR or can CS and then use a 3HP WoG for more healing.

Going only to 3 you are out of HP after SotR and at best would need a CS/J/GCAS to use SotR again and you would have 0 hp coming out of the SotR for a wog or at most 1 hp if you have time for a CS strike versus a 3 hp WoG.


The key that you're missing is that you're reading something different. Your Holy Power generation is always a constant; through natural "not hitting ShoR as the boss turns to cast", you're never going to actually be at a point where you hit ShoR and get to 0 HP, and you'll naturally be at a point where you're hitting ShoR and having 1-2 HP left, and always have the freedom to hit HP moves. As I said, what I'm not saying is "Hit ShoR when you have 3 HP", banking is about NOT doing that. Through the fight, you'll naturally hit a point where you bounce between 3-4 and occasionally hit 5, ebb to 4, 3, 5, 4, 3, 5, whatever. You're just prepared to use it whenever you make the call, not based on "I hit 5 so I will use it now".

By working on 5 HP sequence, you're no longer playing to the encounter, you're playing to your own resource, and putting yourself in that situation where you "need" that bank because you're artificially forcing your own timing. You're also forcibly putting yourself in a catchup position at the start by forcing yourself to delay using HP.
Edited by Slashlove on 9/3/2012 6:45 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Paladin
11260
While a loose rotation for a pally tank makes sense, locking yourself into a strick rotation means you're not paying attention to what's going on around you and aren't really optimizing your tanking abilities.
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85 Human Paladin
7460
09/03/2012 06:22 PMPosted by Celyndrashad


No, think this through.

as you have 3 HP and are going to be hitting a generator next gcd

At the end of the day, your "6th" Holy Power in this timeslice is at the same time, regardless of when you hit the ShoR. Your WoG strength is going to be unaffected.


Okay you have 5 holy power, you use SotR you are now at two. One CS and you can SotR again adding time to SotR buff or you can have a 2hp WoG the instant you cast SotR or can CS and then use a 3HP WoG for more healing.

Going only to 3 you are out of HP after SotR and at best would need a CS/J/GCAS to use SotR again and you would have 0 hp coming out of the SotR for a wog or at most 1 hp if you have time for a CS strike versus a 3 hp WoG.

Going for 5holy power you still SotR after every 3rd HP generator except you have 2 in reserve at all times.

What am i missing?

Edit: im sure you are gonna school me over something i overlooked but got a paper to write so ill have to reply tomorrow.


The key that you're missing is that you're reading something different. Your Holy Power generation is always a constant; through natural "not hitting ShoR as the boss turns to cast", you're never going to actually be at a point where you hit ShoR and get to 0 HP, and you'll naturally be at a point where you're hitting ShoR and having 1-2 HP left, and always have the freedom to hit HP moves. As I said, what I'm not saying is "Hit ShoR when you have 3 HP", banking is about NOT doing that. Through the fight, you'll naturally hit a point where you bounce between 3-4 and occasionally hit 5.

By working on 5 HP sequence, you're no longer playing to the encounter, you're playing to your own resource, and putting yourself in that situation where you "need" that bank because you're artificially forcing your own timing. You're also forcibly putting yourself in a catchup position at the start by forcing yourself to delay using HP.


Slashlove, I think you're both arguing different slightly different points.

I think Celyndrashad is trying to say when possible bank 5 HoPo at the start of the encounter so as to have 2 in reserve as soon as possible in case you as the Prot Paladin have to use another finisher to mitigate physical damage or reactively heal non-physical very early in the fight.

for example if you must hit SotR early on it might look roughly like this

J--------HotR------CS------------J--------CS---------J---------CS---------J
------------------ --Finisher----------------------------Finisher----------------------

If you can bank at the beginning of the fight it might look lik this.

J-------HotR------CS----------J----------CS----------J---------CS---------J---------
--------------------------------------------------------------------Finisher---Finisher

I don't think Celyndrashad is saying always bank 5 HoPo regardless.
If you have spend three HoPo at the start of the fight however you have to wait longer in the fight to be able to do one finishing Move after another.
Or you might have to blow Holy Avenger early on in the fight and perhaps not have it ready later in time for some fight mechanic.

If you are able to bank HoPo up to five at the start of the encounter without risk of dying then you have the freedom to use back to back finishers earlier in the fight.

There is of course a trade off as you wait a bit longer to start building Bastion stacks.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
If you can bank at the beginning of the fight it might look lik this.


Two things there.

1 is that I am assuming a given person is intelligent enough to not lock themselves into this at the start of the fight if it would be counterproductive already.

The 2 is that if you put yourself in that situation, your end result is the same, because once you've used your "bank", you're at 0, so you're back to square one where you're "banking" but because of that you're putting yourself in a situation where you feel more likely to use up your "bank" because you're going that long without using ShoR, which cycles into wanting to build it up again, which cycles into wanting to use it up again.

I don't think Celyndrashad is saying always bank 5 HoPo regardless.


If the constraint is to be able to hit ShoR and WoG back to back, that is exactly what a person locks themselves into.
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85 Human Paladin
7460
Like I said if possible it's probably desirable to bank 5 initially. If it's not possible don't ignore your mitigation or reactive healing in order to bank 5 HoPo.


Yes you will be at zero HoPo some point in the encounter. Banking to 5 when possible means that you have a back to back finisher earlier in the fight and perhaps more often throughout the fight

Considering that every tank is on active mitigation it's likely that there will be periods of relatively low damage in boss fights or a lack of spike damage that needs to be mitigated.

Being conscious of trying to bank 5 HoPo when possible isn't the same as locking yourself into the mindset of "You must have 5 HoPo as often as possible regardless of what is happening to your paladin."

It's not a binary choice where one person is always playing to bank 5 or spend at 3 and I'm not saying always play one way. There is middle ground and you can choose between both methods on the fly depending on what starts to go right or wrong during the encounter.
Edited by Fangthane on 9/3/2012 8:00 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Like I said if possible it's probably desirable to bank 5 initially. If it's not possible don't ignore your mitigation or reactive healing in order to bank 5 HoPo.


-->

1 is that I am assuming a given person is intelligent enough to not lock themselves into this at the start of the fight if it would be counterproductive already.


Being conscious of trying to bank 5 HoPo when possible isn't the same as locking yourself into the mindset of "You must have 5 HoPo as often as possible regardless of what is happening to your paladin."

It's not a binary choice where one person is always playing to 5 or spend at 3 and I'm not saying always play one way. There is middle ground and you can choose between both methods on the fly depending on what starts to go right or wrong during the encounter.


For a start, the entire point of the idea of "5 HP" is because people want to leave themselves room to react to unplanned emergencies. The only way to do that is by getting to 5HP as often as possible regardless of what is happening, even if it means "choosing" to spike harder to get to that point.

Also, did you read what >I< posted? Because if you did, I don't see why you would have felt the need to include that last line at all.
Edited by Slashlove on 9/3/2012 8:03 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Paladin
11260
For a start, the entire point of the idea of "5 HP" is because people want to leave themselves room to react to unplanned emergencies. The only way to do that is by getting to 5HP as often as possible regardless of what is happening.


IMO, if you're doing practically anything "regardless of what is happening" then you're probably not doing a good job of tanking.
Edited by Jamina on 9/3/2012 8:06 PM PDT
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85 Human Paladin
7460
Also, did you read what >I< posted? Because if you did, I don't see why you would have felt the need to include that last line at all.


I read your post.

if you put yourself in that situation, your end result is the same, because once you've used your "bank", you're at 0, so you're back to square one where you're "banking" but because of that you're putting yourself in a situation where you feel more likely to use up your "bank" because you're going that long without using ShoR, which cycles into wanting to build it up again, which cycles into wanting to use it up again.


I know you end up with 0 HoPo when you use a back to back finishing sequence

The point is to have 2 HoPo in reserve as soon as possible and then for often as possible when you might *need* it.

Not to lock yourself into a build to 5 HoPo all the time mindset.

I don't think that favoring a build to five at the start of the fight will lock a person into a rigid mindset that you described in the above quote and that is why I added the last line.
Edited by Fangthane on 9/3/2012 8:17 PM PDT
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