Prot pally rotation and avoidance

85 Human Paladin
7460
In BC you could make a resist potion that would absorb the first 1500 or so Holy damage that you took after drinking it. Afaik it was the only source of any kind of holy resist in the game available to players.


only one for players eh? any mobs of noted that were resistant to Holy Damage aside from the mob being a few levels above the player?
Reply Quote
80 Draenei Shaman
550
As I recall it Mu'ru was originally going to be a holy resist gear fight. They took the gear out before the patch went live however.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
only one for players eh? any mobs of noted that were resistant to Holy Damage aside from the mob being a few levels above the player?


Aside from things like Mother Shahraz and her Prismatic Shield, there was no such thing as Holy Resistance.
Reply Quote
1 Draenei Paladin
0
Fun Holy damage facts:

The drakonids and Chromaggus in BWL take reduced damage from Holy, always. There is no "Holy Vulnerable" state for those mobs. Tanking them at 70 was next to impossible.

Emperor Vek'nilash in AQ40 is susceptible to Holy damage, but totally immune to all other magic damage.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Also, remember when Seal of Blood (and only Blood) would work on what's his face in Illidari Council through BoP.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Paladin
11260
While a loose rotation for a pally tank makes sense, locking yourself into a strick rotation means you're not paying attention to what's going on around you and aren't really optimizing your tanking abilities.


No competent tank literally locks themselves into a strict, unvarying rotation. I am working off of the assumption that this statement is over-stated hyperbole, and you meant a 969-type of rotation.

On this assumption, you are incredibly wrong. One can use a set rotation and still pay attention to what is going on--- and react appropriately. Proper rotation includes the tank-player's ability to vary the rotation, or leave it and re-start it at appropriate moments in an appropriate manner.

i.e. recognizing the need for a "Hand of---" spell, and knowing the best spell to re-enter rotational mode.

I haven't actually gotten a chance to do much with the new MoP system, but I am not sure if anything resembling a 969 is even possible now.


Your assumption that what I said was meant as a hyperbole is incorrect, though you are entitled to think that saying “a loose rotation for a pally tank makes sense, (but) locking yourself into a strict rotation means you're not paying attention to what's going on around you and aren't really optimizing your tanking abilities” is somehow wrong, but it is my opinion.

I believe that as easy as it is to come up with an effective dps rotation for a ret paladin, it is equally mistaken to think that such a rotation can be effective as a tank, since our jobs are, even more so now, so different from that of the dps.

We are responsible for the entire group, and while maintaining aggro is almost always at the top of our priority list, this can be done in differing ways and causing damage is not always our second priority. Sometimes making sure we don’t die is more important than maximizing our dps at that moment. Sometimes protecting a healer is more important than making sure we’re shooting with both barrels. Sometimes making sure a dps doesn’t die is our highest priority. Sometimes orchestrating an imaginative pull is what is needed.

For a dps, a mostly fixed rotation or two makes sense, as the main foci for a dps stay pretty much the same. 1. Cause damage. 2. Cause damage. 3. Cause damage. Sure, sometimes they need to step out of some fire or move because of a debuff or engage in some other non-damaging action, but almost universally they are there to kill, kill, kill. Since the responsibility of the group’s survival doesn’t rest on their shoulders in the same way it does on the tank’s, they don’t have the need for the kind of flexibility we do.

With some groups we should be using a stun from HW on the dragonkin or demons as soon as we pull, trying to stun again as much as possible. With some groups we might want to wait to use that later. With some bosses we should be reglyphing from SS to EF and using that as much as we can. With some healers, depending on type or ability, it would instead be important to keep SS up all the times. The make-up of the groups we are in coupled with the variety of situations we encounter means that we need something that was best described on this thread with:

09/03/2012 11:07 PMPosted by Fangthane
As I understand it there's not an actual rotation so much as a rhythm that you settle into once in melee of the boss


For us it seems that getting the feel of our talents, getting a working knowledge of when they reset, and not ascribing to any rigid or fixed rotation is important. Having something in your mind that is more of a loose rotation makes sense to me. Just like it’s important as a tank not to think something is going to always be right in every situation (there are times when we need to learn to drop our aggro, for instance).

Now, I understand the attraction of having a ready-made rotation for every tank to use. “Here, just hit these 6-8 buttons in this particular order or a slight variation thereof and you will be doing a great job tanking.” However, I personally believe that this type of mindset hinders development of tanking skills. While it may seem to make the game a bit less challenging to copy someone else’s playstyle (or a “rotation” that a skilled player has leeched out or simplified from their actual in-game play) in the beginning, I think it makes tanking in the game harder on an individual in the long run.

Also, I think it is relevant to note that I was responding to someone who went on to say "The only way to do that is by getting to 5HP as often as possible regardless of what is happening, even if it means "choosing" to spike harder to get to that point." That type of rigid, fixed roational thinking is EXACTLY what I'm refering to when I say one shouldn't have a rixed rotation as a tank.

But, you’re welcome to have a different opinion than I do.
Edited by Jamina on 9/4/2012 3:07 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Since the responsibility of the group’s survival doesn’t rest on their shoulders in the same way it does on the tank’s, they don’t have the need for the kind of flexibility we do.


I'm trying not to laugh at just how horribly mistaken this is.

People should stop talking about rotation and use the term "priority queue". Even things that end up being rotations only end up that way because .... *drumroll* priority queue works out that way.

I think it is relevant to note that I was responding to someone who went on to say


Random note, it comes across slightly unclear whether you mean that in a supporting context or whether you think that I think that it's a good idea and are trying to counter.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Paladin
11260
09/04/2012 03:09 PMPosted by Slashlove
Since the responsibility of the group’s survival doesn’t rest on their shoulders in the same way it does on the tank’s, they don’t have the need for the kind of flexibility we do.


I'm trying not to laugh at just how horribly mistaken this is.

People should stop talking about rotation and use the term "priority queue". Even things that end up being rotations only end up that way because .... *drumroll* priority queue works out that way.

I think it is relevant to note that I was responding to someone who went on to say


Random note, it comes across slightly unclear whether you mean that in a supporting context or whether you think that I think that it's a good idea and are trying to counter.


As to your point about rotations (edit: not your first point) I would suggest you reread what I've written, for I believe I said repeatedly that I think a loose rotation (please note word used: rotation) is more appropriate than a fixed rotation, and in no way argued against rotations altogether, just a rigid type. (Edit #2: I believe your "priority queue" idea has merit). Perhaps I was unclear.

If that is the case, I apologize. In that context, I would think that when I said

"I was responding to someone who went on to say "The only way to do that is by getting to 5HP as often as possible regardless of what is happening, even if it means "choosing" to spike harder to get to that point." That type of rigid, fixed roational thinking is EXACTLY what I'm refering to when I say one shouldn't have a fixed rotation as a tank"

it would be clear that I was referring to this idea of banking 5 no matter what (even being spikey) was a bad idea that I was against. However, if i was unclear, I apologize and would like to clarify by saying I think it is a bad idea and exactly the type of fixed rotational thinking I am opposed to.

As for our difference of opinion about tanks having to be more flexible in their rotations than dps, I suppose we will disagree.
Edited by Jamina on 9/4/2012 3:29 PM PDT
Reply Quote
85 Human Paladin
7460
09/04/2012 03:09 PMPosted by Slashlove
People should stop talking about rotation and use the term "priority queue". Even things that end up being rotations only end up that way because .... *drumroll* priority queue works out that way.


Well there does seem to be a partial rotation since alot of the time a Paladin will

do:

CS(or HotR)-------------X---------------X-------------------------CS------------------x------------X
--------------------------------------------Finisher (or wait)---------------------------Finisher

then fill X with the appropriate move depending on whether your tanking one mob or more than one mob.

But as you said there is a priority Que to the fillers as represented by X.

I agree that rotation is a term we should move away from as it can encourage people to get into a set habit.

The term priority queue or rhythm are more applicable terms which suggest flexibility in what a player chooses for their next ability to use based on the situation, even if generally much of the time it will probably look like a "rotation".
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
As to your point about rotations (edit: not your first point) I would suggest you reread what I've written, for I believe I said repeatedly that I think a loose rotation (please note word used: rotation) is more appropriate than a fixed rotation, and in no way argued against rotations altogether, just a rigid type. Perhaps I was unclear.


In ability context, a rotation by definition refers to a repeating pattern. What we follow is a priority queue.

it would be clear that I was referring to this idea of banking 5 no matter what (even being spikey) was a bad idea that I was against. However, if i was unclear, I apologize and would like to clarify by saying I think it is a bad idea and exactly the type of fixed rotational thinking I am opposed to.


No, that's clear. What isn't clear is whether you're saying that to agree with me, or because you think I think the mentality is a good idea and you're countering.

As for our difference of opinion about tanks having to be more flexible in their rotations than dps, I suppose we will disagree.


IT's not really about flexibility. There are many DPS classes with MUCH more flexible priority queues than we will ever have as tanks. I'm laughing more at the idea that group survivability rests on tank shoulders differently compared to damage dealers.

then fill X with the appropriate move depending on whether your tanking one mob or more than one mob.

But as you said there is a priority Que to the fillers as represented by X.


Sort of. CS just happens to be on top most of the time. Most priorities follow that - some people refer to it as a heartbeat. For example, talenting SW, the priority inverts during AW and Judgment shoots to the top and CS is second.
Edited by Slashlove on 9/4/2012 3:34 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Paladin
11260
[quote] I'm laughing more at the idea that group survivability rests on tank shoulders differently compared to damage dealers.


Firstly, I think you missed an edit I put in. I think your "priority queue" idea has merit to it. Or calling it a rhythm instead of a rotation. Either one describes what I call a "loose rotation" quite well.

Secondly, if you don't think group survivability has traditionally rested on the shoulders or the tanks (and the healers) to a greater degree than the dps in most situations (save the occasional dps race), then we will again have to disagree.

Also, I hope it is now clear that I think storing 5 HP no matter what, even to the point of becoming spikey, is a bad idea and the type of sticking to a rotation that I'm not fond of.

Edit: I didn't mean to say that DPS might not be able to edit their rotations (or priorities queues as you call them) for different types of fights, or even within a fight, I just meant to say that they seem to be able to stick more to a limited number of set rotations or priorities, as their job in a fight isn't as prone to change as ours is (i.e. they are usually doing damage, we might be focused on lessening our damage, doing dps OR healing depending on the moment of the fight).
Edited by Jamina on 9/4/2012 3:47 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Secondly, if you don't think group survivability has traditionally rested on the shoulders or the tanks (and the healers) to a greater degree than the dps in most situations (save the occasional dps race), then we will again have to disagree.


It's not really a subjective call. We've had multiple expansions, and group survivability has only had something to do with tanks on a very small set of gimmicks. Unless we're using some silly definition where "I'm at the keyboard" or "I'm online" is contributing to group survivability.
Reply Quote
85 Human Paladin
7460
Sort of. CS is also part of the Priority queue, it just happens to be on top most of the time. For example, doing SW, the priority inverts and Judgment shoots to the top and CS is second.


I'm running HA now and don't see the need to change it for the rest of this expansion. I suppose there will be some boss fights that will favor going to Sanctified Wrath instead. I'm hoping they won't come along so often that paladins are using SW more than HA...

but, I'm speaking in generalities

since alot of the time a Paladin will

do:

CS(or HotR)-------------X---------------X-------------------------CS------------------x------------X
--------------------------------------------Finisher (or wait)---------------------------Finisher


even with SW talented, but yes during the period of SW use J will come off cooldown faster than CS
Edited by Fangthane on 9/4/2012 3:55 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
but, I'm speaking in generalities


Right, and the generality is that CS is included in the priority queue, just at the top, because that's the only way to really incorporate things that would change CS's priority in there. If a person thinks in terms of a CS sequence with "filler priorities", that person would never think to invert their priority queue for SW.
Edited by Slashlove on 9/4/2012 4:01 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Paladin
11260
09/04/2012 03:46 PMPosted by Slashlove
Secondly, if you don't think group survivability has traditionally rested on the shoulders or the tanks (and the healers) to a greater degree than the dps in most situations (save the occasional dps race), then we will again have to disagree.


It's not really a subjective call. We've had multiple expansions, and group survivability has only had something to do with tanks on a very small set of gimmicks. Unless we're using some silly definition where "I'm at the keyboard" or "I'm online" is contributing to group survivability.


As I said, we'll probably have to just agree to disagree on this. Though as far as I can tell from the stickies at the top of the "Tanking" section, this opinion is, at the very least, subjective.

>> Responsibility <<

This may be a contentious subject, but I firmly believe that a tank should be responsible for as much as possible within a group. For the most part, a tank controls the speed, direction, and success of a dungeon run.Mistakes will happen while you tank. Be humble and own up to your mistakes. At the same time, other people will make mistakes. Don't rage at them, help them learn from it.


http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1772568258

The tank’s role in 5-man content is, in my opinion, the most critical role in the group. My rationale for this statement is that for whatever reason, the WoW-playing community has effectively nominated the position of tank as the defacto leader. Six years of social reinforcement has all but made this a universal truth. Can other positions take the responsibility of leader? Of course! Do they? Not often. Particularly within the PUG Nation, the assumption is that the tank will shoulder that responsibility. Some do it well. Others, not so much.

To paraphrase a comment by Shortshank in this thread: “When the fight runs like a well-oiled machine, it is because the DPS are the engine, the healers are the gas, and the tank does the steering.” I understand (and agree with) the argument that without a healer, there is no victory, and without DPS, there is no victory. No tank is going to hit the level cap and then go solo a Heroic. However, I view the complexity for any given role in a group as largely determined by the amount of responsibility the player has to take for other people in order for the group to succeed.


http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1577525240

But hey, we may even disagree about whether or not we can even disagree.
Edited by Jamina on 9/4/2012 4:05 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
http://teakdoor.com/Gallery/albums/userpics/48788/implied-facepalm1.jpg
Reply Quote
85 Human Paladin
7460
09/04/2012 03:59 PMPosted by Slashlove
Right, and the generality is that CS is included in the priority queue, just at the top, because that's the only way to really incorporate things that would change CS's priority in there. If a person thinks in terms of a CS sequence with "filler priorities", that person would never think to invert their priority queue for SW.


Unless they're told remember that when SW is talented and in use that Jdgmt. comes off of CD sooner than CS so the queue or rhythm will change during that time.

Which is what I expect people who write guides will make note of.

I use a bar addon to put AS, CS (since HotR is linked), J, and Holy wrath icons right below my character (or on my character depending on how the camera ends up during an encounter) with numeric cooldown counts enabled on the icons.

Even if I generally think CS----------X----------------X

I wouldn't be pressing CS while it was on cooldown and Jdgment was obviously off CD.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Paladin
11260
09/04/2012 04:08 PMPosted by Slashlove
http://teakdoor.com/Gallery/albums/userpics/48788/implied-facepalm1.jpg


Got it, not allowed to have a different opinion than you.
Reply Quote
64 Draenei Death Knight
10235
09/04/2012 04:12 PMPosted by Jamina
http://teakdoor.com/Gallery/albums/userpics/48788/implied-facepalm1.jpg


Got it, not allowed to have a different opinion than you.


09/04/2012 04:08 PMPosted by Slashlove
http://teakdoor.com/Gallery/albums/userpics/48788/implied-facepalm1.jpg
Reply Quote
85 Human Paladin
7460
09/04/2012 04:03 PMPosted by Jamina
“When the fight runs like a well-oiled machine, it is because the DPS are the engine, the healers are the gas, and the tank does the steering.”


I saw a different but similar quote....

along the lines of.

The dps are the gas pedal and determine how fast you go (how quickly the boss dies), and the healers determine how long you can go(how long healing can happen).... while the tank being the car takes all of the wear and tear....
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]