Moonfarespam: The Moonkin PvE Guide (5.2)

90 Worgen Druid
10200
10/09/2012 08:31 PMPosted by Velaniz
If you refresh a dot when it has 1 tick remaining, you don't lose that remaining tick, and that remaining tick keeps all its old values (mastery, SP... at this point haste doesn't really matter).


Hmm was testing this earlier and it seems that just like in Cata the last tick doesn't keep its original stats when you refresh it. I remember this definitely existed in Cata as aff warlocks used to time bane of doom refreshes to get 5 buffed ticks by their demon soul, as opposed to just 4, although I didn't check if it was the same for moonkins, just assumed it was.

It does seem to be the case currently though. Assuming 8 dot ticks without Nature's grace up, if you refresh an uneclipsed moonfire with an eclipsed one, you get 6 uneclipsed ticks and 8 eclipsed ones, so it could work in our advantage too.

To that end, I'm left wondering if it might be somewhat better to let your last round of INC/NV/CA buffed dots actually fall off instead of refreshing them at < 1 sec

Odd, but if you just tested it I'll take your word for it.

10/09/2012 06:18 PMPosted by Velaniz
Just going off how !@#$ing ridiculously moonkitty scales with spellpower, I would say right at the beginning of a fight, when you have your pre-pot, weapon enchant, trinket icds all up. And your next pot should be when you next go moonkitty, unless the fight requires otherwise.

Mooncat damage might be higher than normal moonkin damage, but is it higher than Inc/NV + CA damage? And is it worth losing that triple starfall burst? Maybe I'm just angry about how gimmicky it is. If I wanted to be melee I would roll melee. I don't want to be melee to do the most damage I can do as a ranged DPS spec.

10/09/2012 08:48 PMPosted by Tree

Crit.

Is that really correct for entry level gear acquisition though?

It seems that on the MMOChamp and EJ forums, everyone is advocating hitting that 5273 haste breakpoint ASAP. They claim it's so important, that if we're close enough we should even sacrifice hit for it.

Obviously, hitting the haste breakpoint will come naturally with higher gear levels. I'm around 900 rating short of hitting the breakpoint, so wouldn't it be better to aim for haste gear over crit when it comes to the first two or three gear slots? At least until I can comfortably pick up crit gear without dropping below 5273?

Or should I just say "screw it" and pick up any haste OR crit piece that drops? Or just aim for crit and wait for the haste to come with ilevel?

The problem with gear progression is that the in betweens are never neat and tidy. Sure it's great to have a BiS list, but that doesn't mean that when you have half the items on the list you're going to be half-way optimized.

The way I decide on what gear to roll on is to know what I need at every step of gearing. If I know that there's a BiS item out there, but that I can't equip it until I have a certain level of haste or have items X, Y and Z already, then I pass on it until no one else needs it or I can equip it immediately.

Unfortunately it's not really easy to make this sort of list for someone else. If you really care that much, you need to figure it out on your own, based on your current gear, your guild's estimated progression path and your guild make up (ie who else is rolling against you).

Wrathcalcs can also help you figure out our stat priorities along the way. The newest build seems to have fixed the armory import problems, so you can use it easily.
90 Tauren Druid
16470
You wouldn't lose your triple starfall if you get to the point before hit lunar just stay there and cat it up. I only do mooncat in 5 mans but thats what I do. When the buff runs out I switch back to moonkin and still have my starfall ready before I enter lunar.

Or am I not understanding something? ^^;
Edited by Skychase on 10/9/2012 11:25 PM PDT
90 Worgen Druid
10200
You wouldn't lose your triple starfall if you get to the point before hit lunar just stay there and cat it up. I only do mooncat in 5 mans but thats what I do. When the buff runs out I switch back to moonkin and still have my starfall ready before I enter lunar.

Or am I not understanding something? ^^;

So... maybe I don't get it. You mentioned trinket procs and stuff. All the caster proc ones say things like "on spell damage." So, wouldn't they not proc off of cat stuff? You'd have to cast a few times to get the procs going. I mean, unless you're sitting there casting uneclipsed dots and using starfire so you don't move the eclipse bar...

But then, my question would still be, does catting benefit more from having all those procs lined up than Inc/NV and CA do?
90 Troll Druid
7605
Don't have the Jade spirit enchant myself, so I can't confirm anything about it. But Vision of the Predator (too lazy to look up how to link it), also has a crit proc chance on 'spells' that deal damage, yet I managed to proc it just raking, mangling, and biting. Power torrent also gets procced just using our kitty moves, so I think I wouldn't be out of line in guessing that Jade spirit does proc when we go moonkitty too.

As to whether moonkitty gets more benefit from potting than our balance cds lined up, I would guess so. Have zero math on this, but the difference the int pot makes in moonkitty is so huge and noticeable that I doubt it could be otherwise, unless the fight favors our balance spells. Both moonkitty and INC+NV+CA+3x starfalls seem to produce about the same burst for me, although it's worth pointing out that hotw sustains that over 45 seconds as opposed to 30.
Edited by Velaniz on 10/10/2012 3:23 AM PDT
90 Tauren Druid
16470
Sorry I can't math it out but because of our Killer Instinct anything that gives you int (like a on use trinket or potions) make cat form explode in the good way. I can see how strong it is just looking at my screen and for all the unseen numbers can look at it with a dps addon.

When I FF (while in catform) that porcs my weapon enchant for sure so if I ever get a int based enchat that procs off spells FF is the thing to do. I haven't noticed it procing off anything else but I could have missed it or just bad timing.

All I know is it's awesome and if you have incar too thats two CD's of burst for you for a long running fight :D can't wait to learn the fights betters to start using that rotation in raids.
90 Worgen Druid
10200
/sigh

That's really depressing. I really, really dislike the gimmicky-ness of both HotW and DoC. I was really, really hoping NV would stay strong.

Oh well. I'll give HotW a shot tonight and see how it feels.

Wondering, for you guys who have messed around with HotW, do you recommend still using it right off the bat if you are also using heroism at the start of the fight? Or would our moonkin CDs still benefit more from hero, do you think?
90 Worgen Druid
6450
You can get a large amount of burst by opening with 3 starfalls. If there is a point in time where you need heroism and CA, I'd suggest opening in kitty, and there was no "burst phase" or anything like that, just open up with the 3 starfalls, then go kitty to keep your dps at the high numbers.

Also, in regards to if HotW is better than the lined up boomkin cooldowns, I'd say DEFINITELY yes. Using Nature's Vigil, Incarnation and CA together as well as 3 starfalls still did 17k less dps than HotW kitty.
90 Troll Druid
11620
You can get a large amount of burst by opening with 3 starfalls. If there is a point in time where you need heroism and CA, I'd suggest opening in kitty, and there was no "burst phase" or anything like that, just open up with the 3 starfalls, then go kitty to keep your dps at the high numbers.

Also, in regards to if HotW is better than the lined up boomkin cooldowns, I'd say DEFINITELY yes. Using Nature's Vigil, Incarnation and CA together as well as 3 starfalls still did 17k less dps than HotW kitty.

How many targets? 1?
So, I have to ask this in light of your revamped gemming advice section: Is stacking pure Intellect (red gems) in red slots no longer a viable gemming strategy, even for those of us who have JC as a profession?
90 Tauren Druid
16470
I was hoping more top of the line moonkins (as in the people who know what they are doing and talking about) worked with a HotW build for lesser moonkins like me to check and see if I'm doing it right. But I'm flying blind here >< So far from the few moonkins around that are using the build it seems I'm doing it about as right as they are.

Was this not a topic in the beta forums? I only got in there cause of the ptr I never had the beta so I couldn't try it out for myself. Had I known this option was a option I would have pointed out our pve guide is missing this as a rotation xD

I hope it's not too late, seem like everyone who is in gear worth anything are pretty happy with DoC and NV rotations.

I have Qs bout this HotW myself! Like since some of us are into HotW would our geming be different just because of how well int mix with cat form? I just notice the gem choices have changed after reading Ulryc's post ^^
90 Troll Druid
11620
10/10/2012 08:44 PMPosted by Ulryc
So, I have to ask this in light of your revamped gemming advice section: Is stacking pure Intellect (red gems) in red slots no longer a viable gemming strategy, even for those of us who have JC as a profession?

Don't quote me on this this.

But I've heard the stat weights are:

(Based off INT)
INT = 1
Crit = 0.46
Haste = 0.40
Mastery = 0.40
90 Worgen Druid
10200
10/10/2012 07:21 PMPosted by Joleen
Also, in regards to if HotW is better than the lined up boomkin cooldowns, I'd say DEFINITELY yes. Using Nature's Vigil, Incarnation and CA together as well as 3 starfalls still did 17k less dps than HotW kitty.

I find this INCREDIBLY hard to believe, for several reasons.

First, I used HotW tonight on troll dude. My DPS was pretty damn awesome, but seeing what other people are doing, it wasn't THAT awesome. (Our GM hasn't posted logs yet... once she does I'll link them here, assuming she actually recorded.)

Second, Blizz would not allow a theoretical gap that wide between talents in the same tier. So if you are seeing a 17k DPS difference, you are doing something very, very wrong.

Third, wrathcalcs has it sitting at most a couple thousand above the other talents.

10/10/2012 08:44 PMPosted by Ulryc
So, I have to ask this in light of your revamped gemming advice section: Is stacking pure Intellect (red gems) in red slots no longer a viable gemming strategy, even for those of us who have JC as a profession?

Ah! thank you for reminding me, I need to include that. If you're a JC, your JC gems should all be pure int because the JC gems don't have the double stat budget that regular gems do (they have 1.5x the budget for secondary stats). And obviously you want to stick those in red or prismatic sockets. Otherwise follow the normal gemming strat.

I have Qs bout this HotW myself! Like since some of us are into HotW would our geming be different just because of how well int mix with cat form? I just notice the gem choices have changed after reading Ulryc's post ^^

This is actually a really good question. I haven't seen anyone on EJ bring it up (and what spurred me to revamp the gemming section was discussion there). I'd say it probably wouldn't change your gemming priority because the other 5m15s of the time you're not mooncatting and what your usual stat priorities to be right. But that's just a guess.
90 Troll Druid
7605
17k dps seems like the sort of difference you might see if your tests lasted 45 seconds, as hotw would be up for the whole duration. Personally I'm finding they're very similiar in terms of burst for the first 30 seconds. Boomkin would likely come out ahead when there're more targets to take starfall hits/more targets to dot. You also have a chance to gain owlkin frenzy procs while in form, and gain more benefit from Stormlash.

Moonkitty would come out ahead on single target if the burst phase is anywhere between 45 seconds - 1 min 15 seconds. It would likely also be far superior on a fight where we're unable to use starfall well, like heroic spine. Moonkitty also scales better with intellect and Skull banner. If you're in a 10 man and are the only source of 5% spell haste though, it should be worth noting that going moonkitty for the burst will deprive your other caster dps and healers of 5% haste.
90 Worgen Druid
6450
In regards to the ~17k dps difference, I was talking about just using the cooldowns and comparatively HotW is way more dps.

Inc+CA+NV with 3 starfalls and a pot is less dps by about 15-20k than just sitting in cat with HotW. I haven't really noticed much more dps long-term between the two, though.

Even if both tests are the same duration, my dps stays the same pretty much all throughout HotW. It's not a very bursty thing, it seems very sustained at just a lot higher dps.

I ran with HotW tonight in my group and started with my normal rotation. Before CA falls off, I apply dots to all possible targets (Stone Guards is a good example), then pop HotW and go kitty. I rake the two stone guards that are taking damage, and mangle the second one I rake to 5, ferocious bite, etc. Before HotW falls off, I reapply rake (it does the same damage even out of kitty) so I get 70k rake crits as I continue my boomkin dps.

My guild doesn't seem to care about 45s of not having 5% haste. We only have one other caster dps, and two of our healers don't feel haste is a big deal.

I hear that HotW is getting nerfed anyway, so I won't be sticking with it for long. Finishing my video then switching back to Inc+NV anyway. I won't be sad to see it gone though, I hate juggling between being a kitty and a boomkin.
90 Tauren Druid
16470
Yeah they are nerfing it and I'm sad to see it go! It was the only rotation spec combo I could do any good damage with in the gear I'm in.
I won't have to learn both the melee and range of the fights if they gut HotW good enough for me not to take it. If all three rotation are going to have my dps sagging might as well go for the easier ones.

I want to give DoC another try but last time I tried it, it dropped my dps badly. Are you suppose to healing touch every time you enter an eclipse or every time you enter an eclipse when nature's swiftness is up? Thats the part I'm confused on.

Is DoC pumping the dot's when it first strikes or the dot ticks or both?

But I have a feeling I will go back with Inc/NV too in the end :(
100 Worgen Druid
17585
Regardless of the incoming nerf to HotW, I still think that NV is better than HotW. I like the results I am seeing from NV. It seems like for boss fights, NV is also aligned really well for certain bursts and it stacks very well w/ owlkin frenzy, which seems to be proccing frequently in MV. Also, stormlash scales with NV/incarnation I believe as I was seeing my stormlashes hitting for much higher than other raid members. Also, with the constant damage buffs (i.e. Elegon/Stone Guard) and the cleaving, NV is very effective for high amounts of burst.
90 Worgen Druid
10200
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/nbjmf4on2ma80tf5/sum/damageDone/?s=3780&e=4196

Ended up ranking 3rd on Feng 10 using HotW. Still have nothing to compare it to as I don't know what I would have done without it, and I have a few more pieces of gear now than I did for the kill, so next week won't even be a straight up comparison. I'm amused though that melee was my 3rd highest damage ability, and that rake and FB did more damage than starfall.

For Stone Guard, I messed up my rotation quite a bit so I'm not very pleased with my numbers there. For troll dude I think I could have done better on him too, but it was only our 4th attempt when we killed him so I hadn't really smoothed out the edges of the fight yet. Both troll and stone guard I used NV instead of HotW. I think I started with HotW on troll, and then switched because I was getting too overwhelmed with things to keep track of.

I think a fight like Feng really highlights the strengths of HotW and it really shines there. I don't know that it would be as strong on other fights, though.

I want to give DoC another try but last time I tried it, it dropped my dps badly. Are you suppose to healing touch every time you enter an eclipse or every time you enter an eclipse when nature's swiftness is up? Thats the part I'm confused on.

Is DoC pumping the dot's when it first strikes or the dot ticks or both?

DoC is going to be hard to manage properly at low haste levels. It just lengthens our cycle by way too much right now.

You're supposed to HT every time you enter an eclipse, but use NS on cooldown for it. It buffs the next two dots that you cast within 30s. It definitely buffs the dot portion of MF/SnF. Not sure about direct damage, but if I had to guess I'd say it buffs that too.

edit: troll dude logs are like ultraxion all over again it looks like. I actually video recorded that fight so I may post that in a few days just to have some discussion about the fight. I don't think the way I did it is the best way to do it, though.
Edited by Eluial on 10/12/2012 12:52 AM PDT
90 Worgen Druid
8620
1st on feng (by 4k.... Idk) 1st on will 3rd on Elegon/garajal/kings all as inc/nv reforged for 5273 haste bp followed by crit after that. 141k Elegon video comin soon.
94 Troll Druid
12015
Lots of Korgath!

EDIT: Thanks for all the information!
Edited by Jconnor on 10/15/2012 10:47 AM PDT
90 Worgen Druid
10200
10/12/2012 03:58 AMPosted by Thegodofdps
141k Elegon video comin soon.

Do you have that video up yet? I'd be really interested in seeing it. Our best attempt last night had us well into the last phase, and I was sitting at a little under 100k. We only had 7 stacks of the debuff up, though.

10/15/2012 10:46 AMPosted by Jconnor
Lots of Korgath!

It's the place to be!
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