Moonfarespam: The Moonkin PvE Guide (5.2)

90 Worgen Druid
19275
PS. On the earlier int/crit vs. crit gemming discussion: I would be using int/crit gems as well, but since I'm doing challenge modes I find I can't reach the haste breakpoint while in the challenge modes if I use int/crit gems. In fact, I have to use quite a few pure haste gems to get there comfortably.

So you're finding that the haste breakpoint is worth reaching even in challenge modes? I would have thought crit would be the best way for plowing through trash as soon as possible.


Yeah, it's hard to test whether or not I do better with reaching the haste breakpoint or just going pure crit, since challenge modes are generally very quick and you don't have much time for analysis. Though, I remember before we all got into raid gear (>463), haste was at a point where it was slightly better than crit. I'm sticking with the haste breakpoint because it's better for most of the bosses (and there's a lot of time you can get from the single-target there), and also because my team is pretty AoE-capable without my extra couple of thousand DPS on trash (demo lock/fire mage/chicken/blood DK), assuming crit does indeed pull ahead for trash.

I'm still not sure at what number of adds crit takes ahead on trash (if at all), but I think at these low stat levels haste is still ahead. Maths would be useful, but there's no challenge mode option in WrathCalcs.
Edited by Slippykins on 11/15/2012 2:44 PM PST
90 Tauren Druid
15945
@Slippykins:

That's nice and all, but wrathcalcs (as far as I know) assumes a patchwerk style fight. And almost every boss in the tier has a high degree of movement required. Considering boomkins are so penalized for movement, what I figure is to put a human touch into the sim. Here's my logic:

More crit = more shooting stars procs = more casts on the move = Higher NG uptime = higher dps.

I do believe that we are balanced around NG, so being able to have it more often in a realistic raid situation should be a dps gain over your dots hitting one more time. Of course, my testing is without the 4pc T14. With that 4pc bonus, the haste for the 10th tick comes automatically, and only then would I considering going for the 11th tick because my crit will be so high at that point.

And one source for my assumptions is this character
  • http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/proudmoore/N%C3%A4rwhal/simple
  • is always on the top of world of log parses, and he only has 5273 haste because the gear he has was one gem and one reforge away from it. Other than that, he actively reforges and gems for crit, keeping over 20% on his character sheet.
    Edited by Savario on 11/15/2012 4:13 PM PST
    90 Worgen Druid
    10200
    And one source for my assumptions is this character
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/proudmoore/N%C3%A4rwhal/simple
    is always on the top of world of log parses, and he only has 5273 haste because the gear he has was one gem and one reforge away from it. Other than that, he actively reforges and gems for crit, keeping over 20% on his character sheet.

    Your source is pretty irrelevant to your argument. No one is really arguing against stacking crit after you reach the haste break point. The question is, when you're able to reach the break point, is it better to stack crit instead, or to reach the break point first?

    The answer is: depends on the fight. Crit is going to win any time you have multiple dot-able targets. So far, I haven't heard anyone worth mentioning deny that. But, as WC shows, haste is typically going to be superior in a single target fight (that is, haste to the break point).

    That said, YMMV. Notice how the two numbers Slippykins quoted are very close? If you have a particular playstyle preference, then one style may come out far ahead for you than the other, even if theoretically they're the same. But that doesn't mean that the one you chose is necessarily inherently better than the other (because that's what tools like WC are there to tell you). It just means you're better at getting more out of this method than the other method.
    90 Troll Druid
    7605
    11/14/2012 03:24 PMPosted by Eluial
    I like to refresh my dots at the start and end of solar, but usually only once during lunar. I find that this timing works really well for my haste levels. The lunar refresh usually comes somewhere in the middle, which times it perfectly for a start of solar refresh, and then I clip before NG/solar expire to carry me back through to mid-lunar.


    You have similiar haste, and slightly higher crit than me, so could you give the following a try? When I'm as stationary as possible, I find just the initial two dot applications at the start of Eclipse to be more than sufficient, and even then only when the previous dots have fallen off (I don't clip an uneclipsed dot with an eclipsed one until the last tick).

    At my level of haste (5273-ish) I can hardcast my way to the next Eclipse without stopping to refresh dots and see a fairly high dot uptime. I'm not sure how you would go about deducing your dot uptime from logs only during non-movement windows, instead of overall dot uptime from the whole fight, so I'll just quote the dot uptime I see while bashing on dummies. Currently it's fairly close to 95% from both dots, and I imagine this would be higher still in a raid setting with the 5% crit buff to extend dots with as well as the extra starsurges.

    Another reason why I find this works is because of how I only cast, at most, 2 nukes not buffed by nature's grace every Eclipse cycle. Heading into Lunar my last wrath normally isn't buffed, likewise for heading into Solar with the last starfire. When rng decides it's time something good comes my way, and I find myself able to fill in Eclipse cycles with more Starsurges than I normally would, I'm able to rocket to the next Eclipse with NG up effectively 100%, and have it proc again once I reach it. All of this nets me 85% or so NG uptime, which I think is fairly huge. The only drawback is that because I don't clip uneclipsed dot with eclipsed ones as soon as I can, my eclipsed dot uptime is low, although with how weak our dots are now compared to in Cata I don't think that is much of an issue, as alot of the value of our dots comes now from the starsurges, which you get from uneclipsed dots too.

    I'm also curious to see how all this will change come t13 4-piece.

    11/08/2012 02:51 PMPosted by Tagartou
    Hmm, no danger of being picked up by a tornado mid charge?


    Displacer beast carries no risk of that and only covers 5 yards less, as long as you are able to gauge how far 20 yards is well enough.

    I'm finding the 'blink' characteristic it has can make it useful in many places where wild charge wouldn't work. I found it helpful for stacking on wind lord during his aoe phase for when the bombs get too numerous. I think it potentially also could be useful on something like flank on spirit kings for when you're trying to minimize movement, and possibly also for getting to the leg diagonal from you without going below the boss on Garalon, although I've never tried that out.
    Edited by Velaniz on 11/16/2012 11:45 PM PST
    90 Worgen Druid
    10200
    You have similiar haste, and slightly higher crit than me, so could you give the following a try? When I'm as stationary as possible, I find just the initial two dot applications at the start of Eclipse to be more than sufficient, and even then only when the previous dots have fallen off (I don't clip an uneclipsed dot with an eclipsed one until the last tick).

    At my level of haste (5273-ish) I can hardcast my way to the next Eclipse without stopping to refresh dots and see a fairly high dot uptime. I'm not sure how you would go about deducing your dot uptime from logs only during non-movement windows, instead of overall dot uptime from the whole fight, so I'll just quote the dot uptime I see while bashing on dummies. Currently it's fairly close to 95% from both dots, and I imagine this would be higher still in a raid setting with the 5% crit buff to extend dots with as well as the extra starsurges.

    I will try this out, though our next raid day is two weeks from today, so, may be a while. I'll play around on the dummies a bit maybe to see how it feels.

    11/16/2012 11:18 PMPosted by Velaniz
    Displacer beast carries no risk of that and only covers 5 yards less, as long as you are able to gauge how far 20 yards is well enough.

    There's something about displacer beast that just makes me dislike it. It's not rational cause I haven't even tried it. But I dislike it.

    /shrug

    I found intervene macro'd to target a reliable melee is really amazing.
    90 Night Elf Druid
    15845
    Lets be honest...is the t14 really worth it? Going back to haste cap not being worth it...I honestly think the t14 4set isn't worth it either.

    Just compare the stats...

    On the legs, you get mastery/haste versus haste/spirit with nontier...

    On the hands, you get spirit/haste versus crit/haste with nontier....

    On the helm you get crit/mastery versus haste/crit OR haste/spirit....

    Overall the 2 set is probably most worth it over anything, especially with the number of multitarget fights.

    The two best pieces for this would be the chest (itemazation is perfect) and the shoulders (spirit/mastery but your other choices are the same anyways...)

    SO after all these choices, you would end up with 2 set from chest/shoulders and offset everything else...great, no? Requires less dkp spent on tier or whatever loot system you use!

    Also right now I am doing the whole 5273 haste and then crit thing, but will try pure crit later, is there any preference to still going towards intellect aswell (In red slots gem 160 int?) or is it all crit int or pure crit..? Thanks.

    EDIT: I will never give up my demonic embrace!@!@!@!@@!@!
    Edited by Bonq on 11/21/2012 11:05 AM PST
    If you get 4pc, you can drop down to 3.7k haste and still get more breakpoint ticks than without. Question being, is getting an extra breakpoint by virtue of having any gear worth more than ignoring it and getting the 5.2k breakpoint (requiring more haste instead of crit or something better) with what would be better itemized gear.

    I don't know the answer to that. Someone else might have done the math.

    CALLING ELUIAL TO COME WITH MATHS
    Edited by Daggy on 11/21/2012 2:51 PM PST
    90 Worgen Druid
    19275
    I just did the math. Swapping out shoulders and pants (hat was already off-set), and going down to the 5273 haste breakpoint, results in a 4k loss of DPS. There's no way neglecting the 4-pc will net you more DPS, you're crazy to think otherwise.

    Edit: Oh, and the other day I was discussing with Lappe from Paragon if the 8089 haste breakpoint is better than just stacking crit: on WrathCalcs, it's around 800 more DPS than stacking pure crit and hitting the ~3k haste breakpoint (in fact, I don't believe you can even get that low). Remember that the haste breakpoint also increases your multidotting DPS, and it's not just for single target. Crit is much better for multidotting I'll give you that, but as per WrathCalcs (ie. maths), the haste breakpoint nets you more overall DPS.
    Edited by Slippykins on 11/21/2012 11:51 AM PST
    90 Night Elf Druid
    15845
    Do you think the t14 is still worth it if it's part LFR or normal? Kind of like last tier, the pieces really only outgrew t12 when it was heroic...is the 4set that good?
    90 Worgen Druid
    19275
    11/21/2012 11:57 AMPosted by Bonq
    Do you think the t14 is still worth it if it's part LFR or normal? Kind of like last tier, the pieces really only outgrew t12 when it was heroic...is the 4set that good?


    As long as you're upgrading pieces of equal ilvl (ie. 483 shoulders to 483 LFR tier), then yeah it would be an upgrade. Going from 496 shoulders or even 489 down to the LFR tier wouldn't be wise. Normal tier will be BiS until you start getting heroic pieces, and even then I would only upgrade N tier -> H tier, rather than breaking the 4 piece. It's a pretty big upgrade.
    11/21/2012 11:47 AMPosted by Slippykins
    I just did the math. Swapping out shoulders and pants (hat was already off-set), and going down to the 5273 haste breakpoint, results in a 4k loss of DPS. There's no way neglecting the 4-pc will net you more DPS, you're crazy to think otherwise.


    That's what I had assumed, the extra ticks being worth far more than any negligible gain in secondaries. Glad to see I was right! ^.^
    90 Worgen Druid
    10200
    11/21/2012 11:39 AMPosted by Daggy
    CALLING ELULIAL TO COME WITH MATHS

    Who is this elulial person? ;)

    But really, Slippykins math > my math. No joke.

    11/21/2012 11:04 AMPosted by Bonq
    On the legs, you get mastery/haste versus haste/spirit with nontier...

    This is a toss up because even at my gear level (ie not that great) I'm reforging out of quite a bit of spirit. So, for all intents and purposes, mastery = spirit/hit.

    11/21/2012 11:04 AMPosted by Bonq
    On the hands, you get spirit/haste versus crit/haste with nontier....

    I originally (before release) thought this was the best offtier option. Then I went to shoulders. Now I'm kind of back to thinking gloves.

    11/21/2012 11:04 AMPosted by Bonq
    On the helm you get crit/mastery versus haste/crit OR haste/spirit....

    Haste/crit is obviously the best choice. But, with 4pc you'll have way more than enough haste to reach the absurdly low break point (not the 8089 one), so crit/mastery isn't that big a problem. Again, mastery just = hit, which = more crit or haste somewhere else.

    11/21/2012 11:47 AMPosted by Slippykins
    Oh, and the other day I was discussing with Lappe from Paragon if the 8089 haste breakpoint is better than just stacking crit:

    So conclusion is yes?

    Here's my worry. Well, actually, I have two.

    First, WC/SimC are showing 5273 bp to be better than stacking crit, as well. However, more and more I'm starting to accept the fact that on the majority of the fights this tier (and most certainly on the more challenging ones) crit simply is better. I remember putting together a BiS profile back in beta and it took quite some doing to reach that 8089 bp, and you had to sacrifice a lot of crit (though the exact numbers elude me). Maybe you can conf/deny whether my memory is just playing tricks on me?

    Second, regarding multidot fights, any time you clip your dots you're slightly devaluing the haste (not fully, because the ticks still come at a faster rate, but you're not getting the full value out of it like you would if everything ran to full duration -- or 1 tick away from full duration). On a multidot fight, you're almost always clipping your dots because otherwise they will run out before your next eclipse. On a fight like Garalon, you are most definitely clipping all your dots all the time.

    I mean, it's pretty clear that haste bp = more DPS, but the question is (and always has been but just trying to put more emphasis on it) how much crit is worth sacrificing to get there? It's going to be really tough to evaluate because that number will change based on the number of targets you have, but I think it's really clear that we don't have good simple tools right now to evaluate that.
    90 Night Elf Druid
    15845
    I agree with you completely. On most fights when I am tab dotting or dotting multiple things, I always try to make sure to redot before leaving if dotting multiples, even if that means clipping (Most of the time).

    I rank high on most fights for moonkin, of course I haven't had the chance to try and rank on most heroics yet but I feel I will be fine. My setup seems to be doing me good, the only thing I would honestly try changing is gemming crit instead of haste.

    Right now if you take a look at my armory, I am gemming int/haste instead of int/crit, and then just reforging all my haste to crit, but wouldn't it be the same vice versa?? We'll see! I want to see the amount of haste I would lose by switching to crit stuff, is there a place I can test this without spending a ton of gold?
    90 Worgen Druid
    10200
    11/21/2012 01:00 PMPosted by Bonq
    I want to see the amount of haste I would lose by switching to crit stuff, is there a place I can test this without spending a ton of gold?

    Either askmrrobot or wowreforge (which is FINALLY working again) are good for this sort of thing. Each has its plusses and minuses, though. Mr Robot makes it easy to change gems/enchants and get constant updates on staying at caps, but it's annoying to adjust its weights, and unless you lock everything it will change your gems/enchants for you. Wowreforge has a really nice stat weight interface, but it's annoying to change gems/enchants.
    11/21/2012 12:41 PMPosted by Eluial
    Who is this elulial person? ;)


    I was too lazy to scroll up I'M SORRY

    11/21/2012 01:26 PMPosted by Eluial
    wowreforge (which is FINALLY working again)


    What was wrong with it? Hasn't been broken for me since I started reforging a ton about 3-4 weeks ago. Only problem was it wouldn't account for socket bonuses of haste or spirit, so I had to manually find a number that worked well.
    90 Troll Druid
    11620
    I still don't use WoWReforge.

    Been 5100 for quite a while now o:
    90 Worgen Druid
    19275

    Oh, and the other day I was discussing with Lappe from Paragon if the 8089 haste breakpoint is better than just stacking crit:

    So conclusion is yes?

    Here's my worry. Well, actually, I have two.

    First, WC/SimC are showing 5273 bp to be better than stacking crit, as well. However, more and more I'm starting to accept the fact that on the majority of the fights this tier (and most certainly on the more challenging ones) crit simply is better. I remember putting together a BiS profile back in beta and it took quite some doing to reach that 8089 bp, and you had to sacrifice a lot of crit (though the exact numbers elude me). Maybe you can conf/deny whether my memory is just playing tricks on me?

    Second, regarding multidot fights, any time you clip your dots you're slightly devaluing the haste (not fully, because the ticks still come at a faster rate, but you're not getting the full value out of it like you would if everything ran to full duration -- or 1 tick away from full duration). On a multidot fight, you're almost always clipping your dots because otherwise they will run out before your next eclipse. On a fight like Garalon, you are most definitely clipping all your dots all the time.

    I mean, it's pretty clear that haste bp = more DPS, but the question is (and always has been but just trying to put more emphasis on it) how much crit is worth sacrificing to get there? It's going to be really tough to evaluate because that number will change based on the number of targets you have, but I think it's really clear that we don't have good simple tools right now to evaluate that.


    Yes, the 8089 breakpoint nets you around 800 DPS more than just stacking crit. As far as I can see, by the time you actually get 4-piece normal, reaching the 8089 breakpoint is fairly easy through some reforging and gemming. If we're to take the hat Hood of Stilled Winds as our off-piece, we get a lot of passive haste and minimise the amount of mastery on our gear, thus increasing crit overall. But that's diverging from the topic entirely. So anyway, getting to the 8089 breakpoint should be fairly easy once you actually have the 4-piece bonus (sidenote: if you have LFR tier, it might be a bit difficult but still doable).

    With regards to multidotting fights: I tend to let my dots expire on the way to the next eclipse, so they get the full benefit of any breakpoints I'm hitting. My reasoning is that we just barrel on through non-eclipse states now, and the downtime between eclipses is so small we end up at the next eclipse exceptionally fast. For Garalon, we're lucky to have 1 leg up at a time, and I really only need to dot each piece (carapace + leg) once per eclipse, with maybe a second of dot downtime. Same with single target - dotting once per eclipse is more than enough with no downtime. Also, with more haste you'll get through your eclipse/non-eclipse phases quicker, and coupled with the 4-piece bonus of 2 second longer dots, I'd think up to three targets would be fine with once per eclipse dotting.

    And I agree, it's really difficult to tell whether or not a fight will benefit more from the added haste and extra tick on dots, or if rolling dots and getting as many starsurge procs as possible is the better strategy. Without concrete maths, I'd say (in the H BiS scenario) 3 or less targets will benefit better from haste, 4 targets would be roughly equal, and 5 or more will prefer crit (from dotsurging, or hurricaning if the mobs are grouped). That's just what I think looking at dot lengths and time it takes to transition between eclipses. Again, I've got no maths to prove this, but at the moment no-one has any maths on it. :p

    Oh, and also: if you spend a lot of your time just dotting and redotting in the same eclipse, you run the risk of casting non-NG'd dots, which are vastly inferior to dots with NG. You really want to push through eclipses quickly to avoid losing NG on dots, so that's one argument I can see against dotsurging.
    Edited by Slippykins on 11/21/2012 6:11 PM PST
    90 Worgen Druid
    19275
    11/21/2012 01:00 PMPosted by Bonq
    I want to see the amount of haste I would lose by switching to crit stuff, is there a place I can test this without spending a ton of gold?


    Yes, it's called WrathCalcs.
    90 Troll Druid
    11445
    11/21/2012 02:50 PMPosted by Daggy
    What was wrong with it? Hasn't been broken for me since I started reforging a ton about 3-4 weeks ago. Only problem was it wouldn't account for socket bonuses of haste or spirit, so I had to manually find a number that worked well.
    It was not counting gems, cogwheels, 80-stat enchant, or expertise=hit at various times.
    11/21/2012 08:32 PMPosted by Tagartou
    What was wrong with it? Hasn't been broken for me since I started reforging a ton about 3-4 weeks ago. Only problem was it wouldn't account for socket bonuses of haste or spirit, so I had to manually find a number that worked well.
    It was not counting gems, cogwheels, 80-stat enchant, or expertise=hit at various times.


    Ah. I had only socket bonus problems, and I guess the stat enchant cuz I had to use 4900 as a hit cap to get it perfectly. And like 5040 to get haste perfectly. lol
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