Moonfarespam: The Moonkin PvE Guide (5.2)

90 Worgen Druid
10200
12/24/2012 03:26 PMPosted by Orlém
I forgot to mention that reforge tells me to change most of the stats to hit. Why not Spirit? I thought Spirit>Hit.

Not sure why it does that. Anywhere it says hit you can change to spirit if you prefer.
90 Worgen Druid
10200
test?

amg I can post again! Stupid error...
Edited by Eluial on 12/26/2012 2:00 PM PST
90 Troll Druid
11620
test?

amg I can post again! Stupid error...

Welcome back!
90 Worgen Druid
10200
12/26/2012 02:22 PMPosted by Cyous
Welcome back!

Been doing crossword puzzles online all day because work is dead and I have literally nothing to do. Le sigh...
100 Troll Druid
11585
So what are you guys thinking about for 5.2?

My thoughts are that we will probably want to run SotF+NV in standard fights. SotF isn't that bad compared to Inc right now(its worse but not much worse) and with it's buff and the nerf to NV being an indirect nerf to Inc due to cd stacking I think that it should pull out ahead. And I'm gonna stick with NV for T90 just because I despise DoC and I really don't like HotW. And this way we will still have some burst.

Also I think that with SotF we will definitely still favor crit, but after we have the first haste breakpoint it will probably be beneficial to favor mastery over haste. Out of eclipse time will be really low with SotF so mastery will gain value and haste will lose some. I figure we will still want the breakpoint though if we can hit it without sacrificing crit just because we have that haste on our gear, we might as well use it.

And lastly, something I haven't seen mentioned is trees. They are being buffed, and while I don't know if they are being buffed enough it might be worth considering taking trees+HotW for any extremely movement heavy encounter.
90 Worgen Druid
10200
12/26/2012 03:22 PMPosted by Tagartou
SotF isn't that bad compared to Inc right now(its worse but not much worse)

Trying to think back to when all this was being figured out. I think that, just side by side, yeah, SotF isn't too far behind Inc. But when you consider the CD stacking Inc allows you to do, I feel like it shoots far, far ahead. Some of that stacking will be reduced with the NV change but not very much.

I definitely see SotF being used more (like on Lei Shi... I hate that fight so much), but I don't know about it becoming standard.

12/26/2012 03:22 PMPosted by Tagartou
And lastly, something I haven't seen mentioned is trees. They are being buffed, and while I don't know if they are being buffed enough it might be worth considering taking trees+HotW for any extremely movement heavy encounter.

Possibly. It's hard to say without seeing the numbers (or getting on the PTR). I think the biggest factor here is if they fixed the buggy haste behavior that was being observed with them. Their scaling was inconsistent and they'd often stand around and do nothing for a couple seconds after you summoned them.

12/26/2012 03:22 PMPosted by Tagartou
Also I think that with SotF we will definitely still favor crit, but after we have the first haste breakpoint it will probably be beneficial to favor mastery over haste. Out of eclipse time will be really low with SotF so mastery will gain value and haste will lose some. I figure we will still want the breakpoint though if we can hit it without sacrificing crit just because we have that haste on our gear, we might as well use it.

Yeah... I wonder... by 5.2, most people will have their 4pc, which means "the break point" is 3.7k, which is nothing. And then once we start getting enough T15-level gear, the 5.2k non-4pc break point may be easily obtainable. Not sure.

New SotF doesn't change uneclipsed time very drastically compared to current SotF, though. Lunar -> Solar is still 2 casts. Solar -> lunar is now max 3 casts, though, and could be 2 (as opposed to currently max 4, usually 3, and 2 only if you're very, very lucky).
100 Tauren Druid
22570
Quick question because I'm a derp sometimes. I can't seem to find any other information besides hearsay. And I'm bad at math, I'm sorry D:

I've seen some talk over on the MMOChamp druid forums of cancelling spellcasts to take advantage of SS procs. It's obvious from a numbers standpoint that SS > Eclipsed Wrath, but considering how fast Wrath's cast is, I don't know if it's worth it to cancel and trigger the GCD...? Obviously, if your cast is 75% finished, you should probably finish it. But what about sub 50%?

I have always finished my current casts and immediately used SS when available. I actually experimented with cancelling Wrath (not Starfire) in favor of SS procs in my raid last night, and my DPS seemed to rise substantially compared to my normal output. It's also possible that I was critting more overall, whereas I may have been unlucky other weeks.

So... yay/nay? Nobody seems to talk about this much.
90 Troll Druid
11620
Find the cast time of each spell (effectively)
Find the damage output of each spell.
Find the DpET of each spell. (DMG / CastTime)

Find the ratio of each spell to each other spell.
From there, use the ratio and compare it to the cast time.
And there you go!

If Starsurge hits 50% harder (DpET) than Wrath, than cancelling Wrath half way through would be okay.
Edited by Cyous on 12/27/2012 7:34 PM PST
90 Worgen Druid
10200
12/27/2012 07:12 PMPosted by Tree
So... yay/nay? Nobody seems to talk about this much.

Short answer? Nay. Actually.. NAAAAY, Mr. Ed style.

Long answer + maths:
The times when this would be a DPS gain is when that SS is a crit and the wrath... would not have been (that's a weird counterfactual, but you'll have to deal with it). But, since you can't guarantee either of those situations, you're much, much better off simply never, ever doing this (because it's BAD!).

Using my numbers:
Average wrath is 36,614.5 eclipsed non crit
Average SS is 71,566 eclipsed non crit

Wrath cast time is 1.84s, GCD is 1.314s. The earliest you can cancel wrath is after 1 GCD (well, you can cancel sooner, but that's the minimum time you'll spend on it assuming you have some sort of /stopcasting macro for your SS).

SO

(Wrath + SS) / (wrath cast time + GCD) = 34,299.5 DPS
SS / (GCD x 2) = 29,515 DPS

Long story short, canceling casts is BAD BAD BAD. Always remember your A(lways) B(e) C(asting)s!

12/27/2012 07:21 PMPosted by Cyous
If Starsurge hits 50% harder than Wrath, than cancelling Wrath half way through would be okay.

Except you cannot cancel wrath halfway through because of its short cast time relative to the GCD.
90 Troll Druid
11620
12/27/2012 07:31 PMPosted by Eluial
Except you cannot cancel wrath halfway through because of its short cast time relative to the GCD.

Starsurge procs reset the GCD if the GCD is active.
90 Troll Druid
7605
12/27/2012 07:43 PMPosted by Cyous
Starsurge procs reset the GCD if the GCD is active.


All my time on this toon and I've never actually noticed that. I always did feel there was something funky about its proc, but I never managed to put my finger on what it was. So theoretically, if you were standing in melee range of something such that the 'in-flight' restriction was a non-factor, and you were getting absolutely drowned in procs, you could let loose many more starsurges than would actually be allowed if it didn't reset the gcd? :O
100 Night Elf Druid
14675
12/27/2012 07:31 PMPosted by Eluial
Except you cannot cancel wrath halfway through because of its short cast time relative to the GCD.


You can cancel wrath and immediately throw starsurge.
Edited by Blackklisted on 12/28/2012 12:13 AM PST
90 Troll Druid
11620
12/28/2012 12:01 AMPosted by Velaniz
you could let loose many more starsurges than would actually be allowed if it didn't reset the gcd? :O

I have a few streaks of....5-6 Starsurges in a row.

I literally spam my Starsurge button. You should be on vent/skype/mumble when I'm getting those procs, you'll be like "WHOA BRO, You really gotta be getting those procs, huh?"
100 Night Elf Druid
14675
12/28/2012 12:08 AMPosted by Cyous
I have a few streaks of....5-6 Starsurges in a row.


Would be amazing if starsurge worked like lava burst where it reset automatically lol.
100 Worgen Druid
20060
Update on the SotF vs. Inc debate:

Hamlet updated WrathCalcs to include the 5.2 changes, and because of the previously overly-optimistic # of casts pre-5.2, there's a bump in DPS with the 20->40 energy buff with SotF, but not as much as you would expect. Instead, the numbers for WrathCalcs are now much more realistic, but are not enough of a gain to match Incarnation. When we figure out the BiS list for 5.2, there might be a change in the values, but as it stands Incarnation is clearly ahead.

tl;dr: in actual fact, current SotF numbers are lower than what WrathCalcs spits out, but with 5.2 changes they are more in-line with what WrathCalcs says. However, WrathCalcs also says Incarnation is better. Trees might be situationally better with a buff.

For the NV vs. HotW discussion: WrathCalcs does not completely model NV numbers sufficiently due to cooldowns outside our own scope (ie. heroism, warrior banner, damage mods), and thus is shown to be lower than HotW. This was the case for 5.1 as well, but as we all know NV was still the talent of choice. If the nerf really is only ~1%, NV will probably still be the go-to talent, especially for damage mod fights. HotW is nice for sustained damage.
90 Worgen Druid
10200
12/27/2012 07:43 PMPosted by Cyous
Starsurge procs reset the GCD if the GCD is active.

That explains my frustrations when I'll shoot off 2 SS instead of just one at the end of an eclipse.

Still wouldn't recommend attempting to cancel casts in favor of SS procs, unless you have godlike reflexes and/or are a computer.
90 Troll Druid
11620
12/28/2012 12:42 PMPosted by Eluial
Still wouldn't recommend attempting to cancel casts in favor of SS procs, unless you have godlike reflexes and/or are a computer.

*Unless*

The trick to this is "expecting a proc" so you can react faster. Unless you're a 10th degree black belt, you cannot react fast enough if you're watching timer, mechanics, etc. If I'm hoping/expecting a Starsurge proc, I'll be spamming my Starfire/Wrath key and my Starsurge key. (2-3-2-3-2-3-2-3-3-2-3-2-3-3-2-3-2-3-2-3-2). I have a slight case of ADHD, meaning I'm normal, so I could mash buttons.

I curse a lot at my computer for not giving me any procs. I hate it when SS comes off cooldown and, right before i cast it, it procs. It happens often enough to notice it.

My fingers are resting/spamming:
Ring Finger - [ A ] - Strafe Left (cancels the cast)
Middle Finger - [2, 3] - Wrath, Starsurge - Spamming
Index Finger - [3, 4] - Starsurge, Starfire - Spamming

Since I'm spamming Starsurge I can just move via strafing and the lag tolerance will fire Starsurge as I move. Using this idea, I can typically fire an instant cast Starsurge 300ms after an SS proc given I want to cancel my cast.

I almost never cancel casts in Lunar. Only during a non-BL CD rotation should it be considered, or you're trying to push out of Lunar just before 15sec on Inc to use CA to it's full potential with NV+Inc.

35 Solar Eclipse? -> No spam. (hold any SS proc for leaving Eclipse, it's okay if it refreshes.)
30 Solar Eclipse? -> Spam SS
25 Solar Eclipse? -> No Spam. (hold proc)
20 Solar Eclipse? -> No spam. (hold proc)
15 Solar Eclipse? -> No spam. (hold proc, it's already a bad solar eclipse, just get to Lunar faster)
10 Solar Eclipse? -> Spam SS
05 Solar Eclipse? -> Spam SS.

If you cannot react and fire Starsuge in less then 500ms (1/2sec) it's not worth it.

Sorry for the lengthy explanation on a really simple topic. Just offering insight to what I've been doing, why it works, and how to do it properly. You can easily grab an extra 200k damage in Solar Eclipse, maybe even get lucky and get a 4-SS Solar (I've actually had a 5 before, but it's more damage gained to to 4 SS's, 1 Wrath, then leave Eclipse on SS[5])
Edited by Cyous on 12/28/2012 1:18 PM PST
90 Worgen Druid
10200
Sorry for the lengthy explanation on a really simple topic. Just offering insight to what I've been doing, why it works, and how to do it properly. You can easily grab an extra 200k damage in Solar Eclipse, maybe even get lucky and get a 4-SS Solar (I've actually had a 5 before, but it's more damage gained to to 4 SS's, 1 Wrath, then leave Eclipse on SS[5])

I absolutely spam my buttons, especially at the end of a solar eclipse where I'm really hoping to get a SS proc for the exit. I do things much like you described, spamming SS while casting wrath.

However, that's not going to help you as far as canceling casts goes. If you're intent on canceling a wrath for a SS proc, spamming your SS button isn't going to do anything for you. Because this is what needs to happen:
You're casting wrath.
SS procs before the halfway point (so <.92s into the cast for my haste levels).
You recognize the proc before wrath reaches .92s.
You cancel the wrath.
You cast SS.

Now, there are at least 2 different ways of doing this. First, you could have a special SS keybind that has a /stopcasting macro line in it. Or you could have a special /stopcasting macro bound separately. Either way, You CANNOT be spamming that macro while casting wrath, because it will cancel your cast.

So yes, in the case of trying to cancel casts in favor of SS procs, you do indeed need computer-like reflexes, depending on when the proc happens. If it happens right at the start, well, .9s is not an unreasonable reaction time. But if it happens at .4s? Getting iffy. .6s? I'd be seriously impressed. .8s? I don't believe you at this point.
90 Troll Druid
11620
12/28/2012 01:29 PMPosted by Eluial
But if it happens at .4s? Getting iffy. .6s? I'd be seriously impressed. .8s? I don't believe you at this point.

I should post a video then. I'll see if I have any that demonstrate this.

It'll take some time, though. Not exactly capable of forcing this to happen.
Edited by Cyous on 12/28/2012 2:37 PM PST
90 Troll Druid
9955
Hey all,

I tried skimming through the forums to see if this had been posted anywhere. My apologies if someone has answered it. I'm looking for a boomie who has engineering because I have a few questions on synapse springs :)

First being, do you macro it to anything? I think with the changes in 5.2 it could be macro'd to NV, but for the time being I don't have it joined to anything.

Second, when do you usually pop the CD? Do you wait to always start it in one particular eclipse or do you just pop it as soon as you hit either eclipse state?
This topic has reached its post limit. You may no longer post or reply to posts for this topic.

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]