Moonfarespam: The Moonkin PvE Guide (5.2)

90 Worgen Druid
10200
09/11/2012 06:04 PMPosted by Savager
Cast Starfall> Wrath> Starfall> Incarnation

You want to wait to cast your second starfall until after the first one has fallen off. You don't want to clip your starfalls.

Cast Starfire spam till Solar
Cast Celestial Alignment> Starfall> Sunfire> Moonfire> Wrath till Lunar

No! You want to use CA directly after lunar ends. CA takes you to the middle of your eclipse bar, so using it as soon as you hit eclipse basically skips that eclipse. Also, you always want to use starfire as your primary nuke during CA (and SS on cooldown, of course).

Additionally, during CA you only need to use EITHER moonfire or sunfire. Either one will apply both dots, so it's a waste of a GCD to hit both buttons.

I spam Starfire if Nature's Grace procs and im in Solar and i spam Moonfire if procced in Lunar
if not in Nature's Grace i keep all dots up and spam Wrath to Lunar and Starfall repeating basic rotation
If im moving and im in Lunar i spam Moonfire on the move and Starfire if im in Solar?

Erm, I'm not even sure of what you mean here. So, let's try some definitions.

Nature's Grace is a haste buff that lasts for 15s. It is activated every time you enter an eclipse.
Solar eclipse buffs nature spells, including wrath (nuke), sunfire (dot) and starsurge (nuke).
Lunar eclipse buffs arcane spells, including starfire (nuke), moonfire (dot) and starsurge (nuke).

You apply both dots in every eclipse, but you're going to only worry about making sure the eclipsed dot stays refreshed. In solar you spam wrath to move your bar and in lunar you spam starfire to move your bar. In both eclipses (at all times, really) you give priority to starsurge every time it's off its cooldown.

Hopefully somewhere in there is an answer to your question, but if not, maybe try asking again? :)
100 Troll Druid
11750
09/11/2012 06:21 PMPosted by Phaydre
Edit: I was going to say: Make sure you reforge out of some of that Haste. 2470 is way too much now. Aim for 1589 Haste and reforge as much stats as you can to Crit, then Mastery if you can't do Crit. However, you have done your reforging. How in the world do you have that much Haste even after reforging?? lol
Its the belt, boots, and cloak. They all have haste/spirit on them so he had to forge out of spirit since spirit over 1537 is more wasted than haste over 1589. And he has haste enchants on gloves and boots, those should be mastery.
100 Tauren Druid
19950
Nice thread, dps rotation section is kinda epic huge though.
90 Night Elf Druid
16115
Pulling in 3..2..1

Pre-potion (It will be “Potion of the Jade Serpent” when MoP hits)

Cast your 1st Starfall even though it's not currently eclipsed –because it will become buffed by Lunar eclipse after your next cast, AND it resets upon entering Lunar eclipse, so you’ll get to cast another one pretty soon!


I have read a few of the new rotation threads and one thing that I have not seen talked about is starting 2 casts before lunar.

For example the guild I have been running with starts with a 7 count DBM pull, so it would go something like this.

7..
6..
5..
4..
3.. Pre-pot
2.. Wrath
1.. (still casting)
0... Starfall
Wrath
Enter Lunar.

Is pre-poting that extra 1.5 seconds earlier that much of a dps loss to not do it anymore? I know that wrath no longer has a travel time however what I am trying to get at is you should be able to cast wrath at 2.5 seconds, pop starfall right behind it and not pull early as to screw up other raiders pre-pots (and pre pull rituals :3). I have not seen anyone bring this up and would like to see one of the OP's or someone else who has created a guide as to why this has not a) been thought of or b) has been thought of and is not a good idea to do because of x reason(s).
90 Worgen Druid
10200
I have not seen anyone bring this up and would like to see one of the OP's or someone else who has created a guide as to why this has not a) been thought of or b) has been thought of and is not a good idea to do because of x reason(s).

It's not exactly a new concept, but I didn't really think about it in this particular context. But even if I had I wouldn't have included it for the same reason that I didn't include precasting in the old guide.

Precasting is definitely a way to squeeze out a little more DPS and it can work really well for certain groups/people. But it's not something I'm going to recommend in a general guide, mainly because it does require precision timing to not mess up the tank and the other players. There's a lot of potential for it to go wrong unless it's something your group/tank expects and has accounted for.

Since I'll have more room to write things, it's something I'll consider putting in the advanced rotation section of the guide. Thanks for bringing it up! :)
100 Troll Druid
11750
Is pre-poting that extra 1.5 seconds earlier that much of a dps loss to not do it anymore? I know that wrath no longer has a travel time however what I am trying to get at is you should be able to cast wrath at 2.5 seconds, pop starfall right behind it and not pull early as to screw up other raiders pre-pots (and pre pull rituals :3). I have not seen anyone bring this up and would like to see one of the OP's or someone else who has created a guide as to why this has not a) been thought of or b) has been thought of and is not a good idea to do because of x reason(s).
It would be like an extra 30k damage maybe...seems too risky imo because if you mess it up/pull is aborted at the last second/pull threat you will either die or wipe. And even one death isn't worth doing 30k more damage...
86 Tauren Druid
14270
such great help thank you

one more question tho..during Nature's Grace, should i be just spamming Sunfire during this time period (if im in solar) or just put up Starsurge and my 2 dots and spam Wrath till Lunar and vice versa? seems like a good time to hard cast Starsurge

didnt even think about my enchants..good call
90 Worgen Druid
10200
09/11/2012 10:22 PMPosted by Savager
one more question tho..during Nature's Grace, should i be just spamming Sunfire during this time period (if im in solar) or just put up Starsurge and my 2 dots and spam Wrath till Lunar and vice versa? seems like a good time to hard cast Starsurge

No, not sure what benefit you're thinking you would see from just spamming sunfire during nature's grace -- the dot potion would tick as normal, and the direct damage isn't affected by NG in any way. You want to apply your dots and just nuke through eclipse using the appropriate nuke. You want to always use starsurge on CD, whenever it's up, whether it's a hard cast or a proc.
90 Tauren Druid
1960

By doing that you're effectively shortening your cycle period (I assume you're not refreshing/clipping dots before leaving eclipse either), which gives you more eclipse and NG uptime (at the cost of the extra dot damage).


Yeah...shortening the cycle would be the point. Every time you hit an eclipse you get a 15 second buff that is amazing. Moving from one eclipse to another as quickly as possible greatly increases the uptime on that buff, which over time, turns out to be far stronger dps than an un-eclipsed dot. I raided with it tonight, and was keeping pace with the 410 ilvls on pretty much every fight.

Chasing dot durations does not make sense to me, at all. Crits give dot extensions. CA only requires the cast of 1 dot (coincidentally). Our T14 extends dots by 2 seconds. And everyone knows that clipping is not the intent of the rotation, from a designer standpoint. I could go on...

Give it a try, that's what I'm asking. Everyone I'm reading on these boards is trying so hard to convince themselves that our rotation is the same as it was before the patch. But if nobody else's is, why would ours be?
90 Tauren Druid
1960
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear

If you would like a second opinion on Haste > Mastery > Crit.
90 Troll Druid
7605
Experimented with applying 1 dot at the start of every eclipse for a couple of 7 min tests. Kept my crit > mastery > haste reforge

Average dps was just over 35k, a far cry from the ~39k-ish I usually sustain by keeping both dots up. I think keeping two dots up is very much the intent of our class design, with the catch being knowing when not to refresh and keep nuking to next eclipse, and knowing when you have to stop and refresh a particular dot. Think about how bland our class would be otherwise. Also, more dots up is also more starsurge procs, which hits exceptionally hard, especially with both our set bonsuses buffing it. The instant cast, 20 energy procs also somewhat make up for the pace lost by applying dots. A playstyle executed to maximize Eclipse uptime, NG uptime, and yet keeping enough dots up to keep our A-spell proccing often enough seems more like the vision the Devs have for balance to me.

Furthermore, If 1 dot per Eclipse was the way to go, I don't see why the class designers would separate sunfire and moonfire into two separate, distinct spells. With the playstyle you suggest it would be far more practical to just hash them both together, and just have one morph into the other when we reach the appropriate eclipse.
100 Troll Druid
11750

By doing that you're effectively shortening your cycle period (I assume you're not refreshing/clipping dots before leaving eclipse either), which gives you more eclipse and NG uptime (at the cost of the extra dot damage).


Yeah...shortening the cycle would be the point. Every time you hit an eclipse you get a 15 second buff that is amazing. Moving from one eclipse to another as quickly as possible greatly increases the uptime on that buff, which over time, turns out to be far stronger dps than an un-eclipsed dot. I raided with it tonight, and was keeping pace with the 410 ilvls on pretty much every fight.

Chasing dot durations does not make sense to me, at all. Crits give dot extensions. CA only requires the cast of 1 dot (coincidentally). Our T14 extends dots by 2 seconds. And everyone knows that clipping is not the intent of the rotation, from a designer standpoint. I could go on...

Give it a try, that's what I'm asking. Everyone I'm reading on these boards is trying so hard to convince themselves that our rotation is the same as it was before the patch. But if nobody else's is, why would ours be?
It just doesn't make any sense. You are shortening eclipse cycles by 1 GCD, yes, but our DoTs are our second highest dpet spell. And they proc a spell which is our third highest dpet spell so only having 1 up is a bad idea. This may not be how you look at it, but I see extra GCDs as an average between and eclipsed wrath and uneclipsed wrath. And 1 DoT duration is always going to be more than that. Theoretically it makes no sense. And that seems to be backed up by velaniz.
90 Tauren Druid
1960

Furthermore, If 1 dot per Eclipse was the way to go, I don't see why the class designers would separate sunfire and moonfire into two separate, distinct spells. With the playstyle you suggest it would be far more practical to just hash them both together, and just have one morph into the other when we reach the appropriate eclipse.


If the designers had done that, then the 2 second-per-crit mechanic would be null and void. Said mechanic came in later builds. The fact that they INITIALLY DID only have 1 button for both nukes just reinforces my position.

Also I reject the notion that dots are so high on the DPET scale when you're clipping them constantly upon eclipse entrance and exit.

*Shrug

If what you say is right, we're a class that is required to hotkey 4 seperate nukes, while chasing 2 unpredictable dot durations. And that's just single target. If you're not using DoC.

Mage rotation has like...3 spells? Ele shaman less? Makes sense.
Edited by Bubbageo on 9/12/2012 10:20 AM PDT
90 Worgen Druid
10200
09/12/2012 09:43 AMPosted by Bubbageo
Also I reject the notion that dots are so high on the DPET scale when you're clipping them constantly upon eclipse entrance and exit.

You shouldn't be clipping them that often. The old rule of "apply it when old dot has <2s UNLESS you're about to leave eclipse and haven't applied an eclipsed dot yet" still applies. And you're only clipping the eclipsed dot at the end of eclipse if it has <4s remaining as you're about to exit eclipse.

So perhaps it's simply that you're not executing the "proper" rotation correctly?

Also, I wouldn't put much faith in askmrrobot. I've never been impressed with their theorycrafting, and they had their stat priorities wrong throughout most of wotlk and cata.

Not to mention the fact that right now we're playing with stat levels that are much, much higher than what we'll have at level 90. Unless you're really pushing this hard for what our rotation will be for the next 2 weeks?

09/12/2012 09:43 AMPosted by Bubbageo
If what you say is right, we're a class that is required to hotkey 4 seperate nukes, while chasing 2 unpredictable dot durations. And that's just single target. If you're not using DoC.

I count 3 nukes. And don't use DoC. And I like the unpredictability.
100 Troll Druid
11750
09/12/2012 09:43 AMPosted by Bubbageo
Also I reject the notion that dots are so high on the DPET scale when you're clipping them constantly upon eclipse entrance and exit.
It's not a notion, it's math. They do more damage per the amount of time that they require than any other spell, except starfall. Starsurge is close behind them. And Wrath and Starfire are way below.

And you shouldn't constantly be clipping them. I almost never clip my DoTs now and maintain 94-96% uptime to them in most fights. and 98%+ on dummies.
Edited by Tagartou on 9/12/2012 1:23 PM PDT
90 Worgen Druid
10200
Gonna start putting up the main guide over the next few days. Fact checking/proof reading is always appreciated <3
90 Troll Druid
7605
And you're only clipping the eclipsed dot at the end of eclipse if it has <4s remaining as you're about to exit eclipse.


That's slightly different from what the guide suggests. I expect you made a slight modification to better suit your DW:TR procs?
90 Worgen Druid
10200
09/12/2012 04:43 PMPosted by Velaniz
That's slightly different from what the guide suggests. I expect you made a slight modification to better suit your DW:TR procs?

From the part that Phaydre wrote up (which she got from Cyous)
Prior to exiting Solar Eclipse, clip your DoTs:
Sunfire (if remaining duration <= 6sec)
Moonfire (if remaining duration <= 4sec)

I do it slightly differently. I don't clip the uneclipsed one at all, just let it run out, and I clip the eclipsed one at <=4s. Maybe it's because of DTR, not sure, but I find that gives me more than enough time to get to the next eclipse and reapply both.
100 Night Elf Druid
10665
To be honest, most of the time I'm paying attn to so many things that I don't look to see how many exact seconds are left. I just eyeball it.

Yeah, procs and gear and buffs are going to affect how often individuals have to refresh their dots. But I think Cyous' recommendation is good policy for your average Boomkin.
90 Tauren Druid
16170
Thank you very much for all this info! It helps a lot! The only thing that annoying me is when I end up wasting time on refreshing a dot when at that same time another spell has already refreshed it . Like I see it refreshed as my finger hits the key with sun or moonfire and I'm like
(^v^;) "opps"

Or the reveres happens I see a spell refresh a dot for me so I keep nuking just to see the refreshed dot only last a second and drops right away too fast for me to react and I'm like :| "Oh come on!"

Am I the only one having this problem? Should I be worried?
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