Moonfarespam: The Moonkin PvE Guide (5.2)

90 Tauren Druid
1960
It's not a notion, it's math. They do more damage per the amount of time that they require than any other spell, except starfall. Starsurge is close behind them. And Wrath and Starfire are way below.


Okay, so we've established that you're able to look at one number and see that it's bigger than another number. Case closed, right?

http://simulationcraft.org/505/Druid_Balance_Dummy.html

I assume you are using this chart as the basis for your statement. However, saying that dots are second in DPET only to starfall takes into consideration both eclipsed dots and uneclipsed dots. The only cast in debate here is an uneclipsed dot.

Yes they have a bigger number on the tool tip. But here are the following reasons why this is misleading:

1) dots crit in tics, hard casts (as Eluial points out in this very thread) crit for 209% outright
2) dots have haste breakpoints
3) hard casts bring you closer to your next 15% haste buff, dots do not
4) using both dots means 2-4 GCDs LONGER before each starfall cast, which
as you can see on the chart blows away every other spell by a country mile

So to summarize:
Double dots- very slightly more starsurge procs

Single dots- simpler rotation, higher haste buff uptime, and an increase in
starfall casts

I started out by asking folks to make the comparison at a higher gear level than mine (403). Do not use CA or Incarn (huge RNG), just go from eclipse to eclipse. I have done this for what amounts to hours now, as well as 3 HC raids. The two strategies come out right within ~ 1k of each other every single time over 3, 5, 10 minute tests, with the casting only one dot upon entering an eclipse being FAR less tedious. If you respond please do with your results, instead of with voodoo math.
Edited by Bubbageo on 9/12/2012 9:08 PM PDT
100 Troll Druid
13630
09/12/2012 08:58 PMPosted by Bubbageo
Double dots- very slightly more starsurge procs


how is double the chance to proc a SS amount to slighty more?
90 Tauren Druid
1960
I'll rephrase. Slightly more starsurge damage, overall. Every proc puts the spell back on full cooldown, so double procs will not be double damage.

Even an instant cast costs a GCD. The full cast is only a little longer than a GCD.
Edited by Bubbageo on 9/12/2012 9:34 PM PDT
100 Troll Druid
13630
i hear what ur saying, but the more SS i can use and also use while moving the better very rarely will you just stand and cast the greater chance of proccing a SS increases ur dmg while on the move. ive had fights in DS since the patch where SS was my top dmging spell on the encounter.

also wrath hits like a napkin the more SS going solar to lunar the better for dmg.
Edited by Oduya on 9/12/2012 9:49 PM PDT
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6551965699
90 Worgen Druid
10200
09/12/2012 08:58 PMPosted by Bubbageo
1) dots crit in tics, hard casts (as Eluial points out in this very thread) crit for 209% outright

Actually, really minor point but I just tested this. It appears they finally fixed the weird math on hybrid casters and the crit damage meta. Our crits now do 206% like all the other casters. (This was probably fixed when they made all crits including heals be 200% base.)

As for the rest of your points, some of them are valid, some of them are a little armchairy, but either way, it's not particularly relevant unless you're just trying to make the point for the sake of making a point. In 2 weeks the level cap will go up, our stats will plummet and DEPT will mean a helluva lot more than it does now. Doubling the proc chance of SS will also mean a lot more. Right now we're practically swimming in SS procs, but that won't be the case once our crit rating drops down.

Not to mention, I still think you might be having an execution problem with the "normal" rotation. From what you're saying, it still seems like you don't quite understand the dot refresh strategy.

------------------------------------
edit: unrelated but avoiding double posts. Tag, your spreadsheet doesn't appear to be refreshing for T14. 85/90 works fine, though.
Edited by Eluial on 9/12/2012 10:14 PM PDT
90 Tauren Druid
1960
Oh. Forgot to also mention that hard cast crits extend your ECLIPSED dot duration by 2 seconds.

I do understand the refresh strategy. You refresh when the dot elapses, unless the eclipsed dot is <2 seconds before exiting eclipse. It's not rocket science. It's just extremely, extremely, tedious. Especially in a raid environment.

Since not a single response did actually test and post results (*sigh), I'll start:

2 tests, 10 million damage each. Long tests, by any standards. And yes I understand that dummies are mediocre for such purposes, and raid buffs make an enormous difference. But we work with what we have.

First test. Both dots refreshed and maintaining 95% uptime. I concentrated hard, so there was very little clipping. No buffs, Incarn, or CA.

30336 DPS
Starfire - 23.9%
Starsurge - 21.2%
Wrath - 17.4%
Starfall - 11.3%
Moonfire (DOT) - 10.6%
Starfire (DOT) 10.4%

Second test. Only 1 dot cast upon entering eclipse, and allowed to run to duration. No clipping, no duration chasing, and overall more hard casts.

30877 DPS
Starfire - 27.4%
Starsurge - 22.4%
Wrath - 19.9%
Starfall - 12.2%
Sunfire - 7.3%
Moonfire - 7.3%
90 Tauren Druid
1960
09/12/2012 10:09 PMPosted by Eluial
In 2 weeks the level cap will go up, our stats will plummet and DEPT will mean a helluva lot more than it does now. Doubling the proc chance of SS will also mean a lot more. Right now we're practically swimming in SS procs, but that won't be the case once our crit rating drops down.


How does this statement not reinforce my argument? Wouldn't less crit rating/fewer procs weaken the strategy that relies on SS procs as opposed to a guaranteed 100% of the time 15% haste and starfall? Then, to kick a dead horse, DPET does not take into consideration the eclipse power we gain, or the dot extension on crit.

Also, which of my points are a "little armchairy"?

I'm not here to "make a point for the sake of making a point". I was here to get feedback and tests. It's starting to feel like I'm in the wrong place. I'm not going to troll to get cooperation. Good luck.
Edited by Bubbageo on 9/12/2012 10:39 PM PDT
90 Night Elf Druid
9610
09/05/2012 05:30 PMPosted by Eluial
Timing Synapse Springs with our other cooldowns makes it worth much more than the on-paper number of 320 Int. In the past, however, the Springs have put on-use trinkets on a 1m CD, making them effectively useless for anyone with Synapse Springs. I'm unsure if this will continue to be the case.


This was/is 20 seconds isn't it? Given that setup it could be nicely worked in with an on-use trinket with the way Incarnation and CA are working. Use your on-use trinket at the start of Incarnation (assuming this runs for 20 seconds like the PvP Badge trinkets), then 5 seconds into CA use your Synapse Springs so you could theoretically get full boosted coverage for the time period.
100 Troll Druid
11750
09/12/2012 10:09 PMPosted by Eluial
edit: unrelated but avoiding double posts. Tag, your spreadsheet doesn't appear to be refreshing for T14. 85/90 works fine, though.
Fixed...I tried making it so the T14 bonus wouldn't apply at 85 even if it had yes in it and I messed up something.

09/12/2012 08:58 PMPosted by Bubbageo
http://simulationcraft.org/505/Druid_Balance_Dummy.html
Not really.

using 10000 sp as a baseline then 1 uneclipsed cast of moonfire(which would be affected by NG) does 14770 damage per 1 second of execution time. An uneclipsed NG-starfire does 9179 damage per second. That's what not casting the other DoT gets you, one more NG buffed uneclipsed cast...maybe. The overall increase in NG uptime and starfalls is negligible, or at least comparable to more SS procs.

Edit:
09/12/2012 11:01 PMPosted by Feraldar
Timing Synapse Springs with our other cooldowns makes it worth much more than the on-paper number of 320 Int. In the past, however, the Springs have put on-use trinkets on a 1m CD, making them effectively useless for anyone with Synapse Springs. I'm unsure if this will continue to be the case.


This was/is 20 seconds isn't it? Given that setup it could be nicely worked in with an on-use trinket with the way Incarnation and CA are working. Use your on-use trinket at the start of Incarnation (assuming this runs for 20 seconds like the PvP Badge trinkets), then 5 seconds into CA use your Synapse Springs so you could theoretically get full boosted coverage for the time period.
I thought any on use item or trinket puts others on a CD for the duration of that trinkets effect.
Edited by Tagartou on 9/12/2012 11:18 PM PDT
Oh. Forgot to also mention that hard cast crits extend your ECLIPSED dot duration by 2 seconds.

I do understand the refresh strategy. You refresh when the dot elapses, unless the eclipsed dot is <2 seconds before exiting eclipse. It's not rocket science. It's just extremely, extremely, tedious. Especially in a raid environment.

Since not a single response did actually test and post results (*sigh), I'll start:

2 tests, 10 million damage each. Long tests, by any standards. And yes I understand that dummies are mediocre for such purposes, and raid buffs make an enormous difference. But we work with what we have.

First test. Both dots refreshed and maintaining 95% uptime. I concentrated hard, so there was very little clipping. No buffs, Incarn, or CA.

30336 DPS
Starfire - 23.9%
Starsurge - 21.2%
Wrath - 17.4%
Starfall - 11.3%
Moonfire (DOT) - 10.6%
Starfire (DOT) 10.4%

Second test. Only 1 dot cast upon entering eclipse, and allowed to run to duration. No clipping, no duration chasing, and overall more hard casts.

30877 DPS
Starfire - 27.4%
Starsurge - 22.4%
Wrath - 19.9%
Starfall - 12.2%
Sunfire - 7.3%
Moonfire - 7.3%


If you change your reforging there will be a huge difference in these tests
90 Tauren Druid
1960

If you change your reforging there will be a huge difference in these tests


Have. Wasn't.
90 Night Elf Druid
9610
09/12/2012 11:16 PMPosted by Tagartou
I thought any on use item or trinket puts others on a CD for the duration of that trinkets effect.


That might be so - I was just basing it off my memory and the wowhead comments. I most often use it with a pvp trinket which is 20 seconds, so that lined up with the wowhead comments.

I'll have to test tonight on my rogue who is the engineer.
100 Night Elf Druid
10665
If the developers' intent was for us to use both dots to make the most of our abilities (which I believe it was) but using only the eclipsed dot is working out to be extremely close to using both, then I think they need to take another look at this. I like the dot management part of Balance, as crazy as that may seem. It's a more engaging playstyle than something like Arcane Mages where (if I understand correctly) in essence you just spam a nuke with an occasional proc thrown in for good measure.
90 Worgen Druid
10200
09/12/2012 10:32 PMPosted by Bubbageo
I'm not here to "make a point for the sake of making a point". I was here to get feedback and tests. It's starting to feel like I'm in the wrong place. I'm not going to troll to get cooperation. Good luck.

I will run some tests tonight using my reforges. I didn't mean to be trolling and I apologize if I came off as sounding snarky. My point is, whatever we do NOW at level 85 in our current gear has very little bearing on how things will play out at level 90. So right now you may be right that a single dot is better dps (or the same dps but easier to manage) than 2 dots, but just because that is the case right now it doesn't mean it will hold true for level 90.

One thing you might be interested in is that Hamlet is currently working on building the rotation part of Wrathcalcs. He's putting in the dot application strategies, and so far the options seem to be 1 dot per eclipse or 2. So once that's finished you'll be able to easily evaluate the different strategies based on different gear and talents.

edit
Too tired to say much about this right now. I did 3 single dot tests because the SS was so different between the first and second trial, so I wanted to know what was up.

So I'm starting to think that first single dot run was a fluke in terms of how many SS procs I had. I'm definitely not running another trial right now (maybe tomorrow or this weekend), but I feel fairly comfortable saying that apply only one dot at a time significantly cuts in to your SS damage.

Oh yeah, did the tests the same way you did, with no CA/inc. I had mark and alchemist's flask on, did it in darnassus so no other debuffs on the dummy would affect the results. I did start 75 pre lunar and double starfalled every time.

Double dot
[21:04:51] Skada: Skada: Eluial's Damage for Current fight, 20:59:13 - 21:04:51:
[21:05:16] Skada: 1. Eluial 10633893 (36668.6, 100.0%)
[21:04:51] Skada: Starfire 2606574 (24.5%)
[21:04:51] Skada: Starsurge 2149377 (20.2%)
[21:04:51] Skada: Wrath 1677806 (15.8%)
[21:04:51] Skada: Starfall 1616988 (15.2%)
[21:04:51] Skada: Sunfire 1209750 (11.4%)
[21:04:51] Skada: Moonfire 1166319 (11.0%)
[21:04:51] Skada: Wrath of Tarecgosa 207079 (1.9%)

[21:17:27] Skada: Skada: Damage for Current fight, 21:12:37 - 21:17:27:
[21:17:27] Skada: 1. Eluial 10435507 (37809.8, 100.0%)
[21:17:37] Skada: Starfire 2450669 (23.5%)
[21:17:37] Skada: Starsurge 2177777 (20.9%)
[21:17:37] Skada: Starfall 1773138 (17.0%)
[21:17:37] Skada: Wrath 1683556 (16.1%)
[21:17:37] Skada: Moonfire 1120844 (10.7%)
[21:17:37] Skada: Sunfire 1104976 (10.6%)
[21:17:37] Skada: Wrath of Tarecgosa 124547 (1.2%)

----

Single dot
[21:10:53] Skada: Skada: Eluial's Damage for Current fight, 21:06:14 - 21:10:53:
[21:10:45] Skada: 1. Eluial 10176125 (38256.1, 100.0%)
[21:10:53] Skada: Starfire 2471271 (24.3%)
[21:10:53] Skada: Starsurge 2327811 (22.9%)
[21:10:53] Skada: Wrath 1944068 (19.1%)
[21:10:53] Skada: Starfall 1708559 (16.8%)
[21:10:53] Skada: Moonfire 837717 (8.2%)
[21:10:53] Skada: Sunfire 765995 (7.5%)
[21:10:53] Skada: Wrath of Tarecgosa 120704 (1.2%)

[21:25:35] Skada: Skada: Damage for Current fight, 21:19:33 - 21:25:35:
[21:25:35] Skada: 1. Eluial 10536557 (34321.0, 100.0%)
[21:25:42] Skada: Starfire 2774613 (26.3%)
[21:25:42] Skada: Wrath 2153166 (20.4%)
[21:25:42] Skada: Starfall 1908364 (18.1%)
[21:25:42] Skada: Starsurge 1873504 (17.8%)
[21:25:42] Skada: Moonfire 874069 (8.3%)
[21:25:42] Skada: Sunfire 851045 (8.1%)
[21:25:42] Skada: Wrath of Tarecgosa 101796 (1.0%)

[21:33:27] Skada: Skada: Damage for Current fight, 21:28:17 - 21:33:27:
[21:33:27] Skada: 1. Eluial 10588846 (34831.7, 100.0%)
[21:33:32] Skada: Starfire 2904895 (27.4%)
[21:33:32] Skada: Wrath 2068305 (19.5%)
[21:33:32] Skada: Starsurge 1937350 (18.3%)
[21:33:32] Skada: Starfall 1919572 (18.1%)
[21:33:32] Skada: Moonfire 917626 (8.7%)
[21:33:32] Skada: Sunfire 750020 (7.1%)
[21:33:32] Skada: Wrath of Tarecgosa 91078 (0.9%)
Edited by Eluial on 9/13/2012 9:39 PM PDT
90 Tauren Druid
1960
Looks like in each test you lost about 200k dmg in SS, but gained 200k dmg in starfall. That is in line with my comments above, and with what I have been seeing personally. I appreciate the tests.
Edited by Bubbageo on 9/14/2012 2:17 PM PDT
90 Worgen Druid
17550
It could be argued really that at least the damage is close to whether you're going more heavy DoT's or not. Really the rolling eclipses you're able to do now can far out weigh your filling every cast/gcd anyway. There are too many variants to really work out in actual application though. The fact that each and every crit makes noticeable changes alone means you'd need to spend a ton of time on a dummy to at truly see a long term trend. Even coupling a weapon proc can make things hard to weight.
90 Worgen Druid
10200
09/14/2012 02:34 PMPosted by Torael
The fact that each and every crit makes noticeable changes alone means you'd need to spend a ton of time on a dummy to at truly see a long term trend. Even coupling a weapon proc can make things hard to weight.

Yeah, pretty much this. That's why I like sims for this sort of thing. It's the same single-target-DPS-in-a-vacuum thing, but at least it's hundreds/thousands of iterations to smooth out the RNG edges.

I mean, that first trial with single dots I did was just NUTS. I was getting SS procs back to back to back to back. I peaked at something like 60k DPS at one point. Unbuffed! But the next two trials told a much different story.

09/14/2012 02:34 PMPosted by Torael
It could be argued really that at least the damage is close to whether you're going more heavy DoT's or not.

Well, if you consider that first single dot trial to be an outlier and take it out, I saw a fairly substantial DPS gain by using both dots instead of one. The variation between the trials themselves was 500-1k DPS, while the average DPS gain was over 2k. Of course, this is just an n=2 trial run, so I'm still not putting a whole lot of weight on it.

Not to mention that in a single target boss fight, starfall's damage will be halved while SS's damage stays the same.
Not sure if anyone has explained how expertise works (not that its a real issue for balance) for casters is as follows.

Say you have a piece of gear with
stam/int
and then
haste/hit.

But you are short on the hit cap.

A Boomkin would just reforge the haste to spirit to get more hit. But this wasn't an option for mages/locks. So what blizzard did is made it so that they (or you) could reforge that haste to expertise, and have it function just like spellhit. Eliminating massive amounts of warlock/mage tears about how hard it is to hitcap compared to a hybrid.
90 Worgen Druid
10200
Not sure if anyone has explained how expertise works (not that its a real issue for balance) for casters is as follows.

Say you have a piece of gear with
stam/int
and then
haste/hit.

But you are short on the hit cap.

A Boomkin would just reforge the haste to spirit to get more hit. But this wasn't an option for mages/locks. So what blizzard did is made it so that they (or you) could reforge that haste to expertise, and have it function just like spellhit. Eliminating massive amounts of warlock/mage tears about how hard it is to hitcap compared to a hybrid.

Ohhhhh! So all it is is that exp = spell hit for casters? Thank you!

edit: for a caster, does it still also provide the usual benefits of expertise?
Edited by Eluial on 9/14/2012 3:55 PM PDT
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