Why does Dragon Roar generate no threat?

100 Human Priest
11245
For as much dmg as it does, it should be a nice AOE threat bomb. Instead I hit it and groups of mobs just keep running past.

Broken or working as intended?
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94 Pandaren Warrior
16150
I can't confirm this is true because I usually wait until I have some vengeance to use it, but if it is I imagine its because they don't want the auto-crit burst killing DPS warriors who open with it
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100 Human Priest
11245
09/03/2012 01:36 PMPosted by Ðemolition
I can't confirm this is true because I usually wait until I have some vengeance to use it, but if it is I imagine its because they don't want the auto-crit burst killing DPS warriors who open with it


They should simple leave it as-is doing no threat unless you are in def stance.

I am fairly sure I am doing zero threat with it regardless of how much veng I have, but i'm not 100% sure on that either. Warr AoE threat is pretty weak to begin with, if that is working as intended it is going to be fairly miserable tanking 5-mans in Panda with T-clap and Cleave as our only means of gathering packs...
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94 Pandaren Warrior
16150
09/03/2012 02:45 PMPosted by Martya
it is going to be fairly miserable tanking 5-mans in Panda with T-clap and Cleave as our only means of gathering packs...


I've brought this up, they don't seem to care.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
15195
A threatless Dragon Roar is pretty weaksauce, but there's still Shockwave.
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94 Pandaren Warrior
16150
Edit: Nvm, definitely does NOT give threat
Edited by Ðemolition on 9/3/2012 3:35 PM PDT
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85 Human Warrior
11430
09/03/2012 02:45 PMPosted by Martya
Warr AoE threat is pretty weak to begin with, if that is working as intended it is going to be fairly miserable tanking 5-mans in Panda with T-clap and Cleave as our only means of gathering packs...


Warrior AOE threat is probably the strongest of any tank at the moment. To gather packs you'll be using TClap, Cleave, Revenge (remember, hits 3 targets now and the cooldown refreshes on parries), Heroic Leap, and that new totem banner thing that they think is so awesome. If it's a particularly challenging AOE threat situation you'll probably spec for Bloodbath or Avatar (not sure if Bloodbath works on Heroic Leap/TClap/etc, if it doesn't then probably Avatar).

That's at least as many abilities as we've been using for the last two expansions and possibly even more, and warrior coefficients are extremely high. I don't think there's very much to complain about.

Pretty lame that Dragon Roar doesn't generate threat, though - I noticed it in last night's raid, too.
Edited by Ahti on 9/3/2012 3:44 PM PDT
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94 Pandaren Warrior
16150
09/03/2012 03:42 PMPosted by Ahti
Warr AoE threat is pretty weak to begin with, if that is working as intended it is going to be fairly miserable tanking 5-mans in Panda with T-clap and Cleave as our only means of gathering packs...


Warrior AOE threat is probably the strongest of any tank at the moment. To gather packs you'll be using TClap, Cleave, Revenge (remember, hits 3 targets now and the cooldown refreshes on parries), Heroic Leap, and that new totem banner thing that they think is so awesome. If it's a particularly challenging AOE threat situation you'll probably spec for Bloodbath or Avatar (not sure if Bloodbath works on Heroic Leap/TClap/etc, if it doesn't then probably Avatar).

That's at least as many abilities as we've been using for the last two expansions and possibly even more, and warrior coefficients are extremely high. I don't think there's very much to complain about.


No.

HOLDING AoE, and AoE DPS is high because of revenge spam.

Actually picking up new adds once you're already aoe tanking is another story.

We have one true AoE on a 6s cd (and possibly one on a long cd if you didn't pick roar)

Every other class has at least two non-capped AoE's, at least one with a shorter CD than t clap.
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90 Human Death Knight
8900
Shouts have never given threat. Dragon Roar is different, but it's still a shout.
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90 Human Paladin
8390
09/03/2012 03:45 PMPosted by Ðemolition


Warrior AOE threat is probably the strongest of any tank at the moment. To gather packs you'll be using TClap, Cleave, Revenge (remember, hits 3 targets now and the cooldown refreshes on parries), Heroic Leap, and that new totem banner thing that they think is so awesome. If it's a particularly challenging AOE threat situation you'll probably spec for Bloodbath or Avatar (not sure if Bloodbath works on Heroic Leap/TClap/etc, if it doesn't then probably Avatar).

That's at least as many abilities as we've been using for the last two expansions and possibly even more, and warrior coefficients are extremely high. I don't think there's very much to complain about.


No.

HOLDING AoE, and AoE DPS is high because of revenge spam.

Actually picking up new adds once you're already aoe tanking is another story.

We have one true AoE on a 6s cd (and possibly one on a long cd if you didn't pick roar)

Every other class has at least two non-capped AoE's, at least one with a shorter CD than t clap.


I don't know why you purposefully ignore Revenge and Cleave, since they will be used to fill the gaps.
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90 Tauren Paladin
8220
09/03/2012 05:33 PMPosted by Judgesyou
I don't know why you purposefully ignore Revenge and Cleave, since they will be used to fill the gaps.

You can't really control what they hit. It's nowhere near the same as the other three tanks' pickup capabilities.
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94 Pandaren Warrior
16150
09/03/2012 05:33 PMPosted by Judgesyou
I don't know why you purposefully ignore Revenge and Cleave, since they will be used to fill the gaps.


I don't know why you purposefully stalk me and try to undermine warrior aoe concerns at every turn...

But this:

You can't really control what they hit. It's nowhere near the same as the other three tanks' pickup capabilities.
Edited by Ðemolition on 9/3/2012 5:41 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
8390
09/03/2012 05:40 PMPosted by Ðemolition
I don't know why you purposefully stalk me and try to undermine warrior aoe concerns at every turn...


Probably because they aren't as bad as you think, and DKs and Paladins don't really have it any better.

You can't really control what they hit. It's nowhere near the same as the other three tanks' pickup capabilities.


Last I check, Cleave at least hit your lowest threat target, and even if you can't choose who it hits it's enough to hold threat.
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90 Dwarf Warrior
14765
09/03/2012 06:54 PMPosted by Judgesyou
Last I check, Cleave at least hit your lowest threat target


Woah, I have never, ever heard this.
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85 Human Warrior
11430
09/03/2012 03:45 PMPosted by Ðemolition
HOLDING AoE, and AoE DPS is high because of revenge spam.


AOE DPS is high because of Deep Wounds and Thunder Clap. Mostly Deep Wounds. It ignores armor and does something ridiculous like 25% of AP per tick.

09/03/2012 03:45 PMPosted by Ðemolition
Actually picking up new adds once you're already aoe tanking is another story.


Well, that's what Heroic Leap and Shockwave and Mocking Banner are for.

I guess I'm confused, because the patch didn't appreciably change the warrior toolkit for AOE. If anything, warrior AOE is stronger post-patch than pre-patch, since Thunder Clap applies the bleed by default, the bleed is dramatically stronger, and Heroic Leap has a much shorter cooldown. Hell, even Challenging Shout got a massive buff.

So basically, if you think warriors are weak at AOE pickups now, you must've believed they were even weaker this entire expansion. I just don't think that bears out. We've been fine and we continue to be fine. "AOE add pickups" are a challenge drastically blown out of proportion, and even in situations where they are challenging, they tend to be overshadowed by all kinds of other stuff (Spine heroic is a good example of this - maybe warriors are the worst at "AOE pickups", but when you can zoom all over the damn place and pick up adds while kiting the current adds at the same time, it hardly matters).

I honestly have exactly the opposite impression of warrior AOE capability.

Anyway, thread's kind of hijacked from the OT at this point, which is a solid question. It really doesn't make any sense. Dragon Roar should absolutely generate threat. If they're making it generate zero threat for Arms and Fury warriors because otherwise it'd be dangerous (I have trouble believing this, but I guess maybe it's true?) then they should make it generate threat in Defensive Stance only.
Edited by Ahti on 9/3/2012 7:50 PM PDT
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94 Pandaren Warrior
16150
09/03/2012 07:45 PMPosted by Ahti
HOLDING AoE, and AoE DPS is high because of revenge spam.


AOE DPS is high because of Deep Wounds and Thunder Clap. Mostly Deep Wounds. It ignores armor and does something ridiculous like 25% of AP per tick.

Actually picking up new adds once you're already aoe tanking is another story.


Well, that's what Heroic Leap and Shockwave and Mocking Banner are for.

I guess I'm confused, because the patch didn't appreciably change the warrior toolkit for AOE. If anything, warrior AOE is stronger post-patch than pre-patch, since Thunder Clap applies the bleed by default, the bleed is dramatically stronger, and Heroic Leap has a much shorter cooldown. Hell, even Challenging Shout got a massive buff.

So basically, if you think warriors are weak at AOE pickups now, you must've believed they were even weaker this entire expansion. I just don't think that bears out. We've been fine and we continue to be fine. "AOE add pickups" are a challenge drastically blown out of proportion, and even in situations where they are challenging, they tend to be overshadowed by all kinds of other stuff (Spine heroic is a good example of this - maybe warriors are the worst at "AOE pickups", but when you can zoom all over the damn place and pick up adds while kiting the current adds at the same time, it hardly matters).

I honestly have exactly the opposite impression of warrior AOE capability.

Anyway, thread's kind of hijacked from the OT at this point, which is a solid question. It really doesn't make any sense. Dragon Roar should absolutely generate threat. If they're making it generate zero threat for Arms and Fury warriors because otherwise it'd be dangerous (I have trouble believing this, but I guess maybe it's true?) then they should make it generate threat in Defensive Stance only.


Cleave has always been our biggest crutch for new things, its effectively gone on non-trivial content now.
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94 Pandaren Warrior
16150
I know this isn't going to add much to this discussion but I want to say it.

Dragon roar is crap. I don't see myself using it at all, unless there is a specific encounter that calls for it.


I don't see that adding much either, because its wrong.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
13465
You know, all throughout Wrath, Prot Pallies were considered the OP go-to tanks for 5-mans because of our amazing AoE threat. Could vacuum everything up as we went. But the funny thing is that we had exactly 1 "true" AoE ability while we were doing it: Consecration. Everything else was a 2-3 target cleave, yet somehow we managed to be AoE gods. The point being that having cleaves instead of AoEs isn't the worst thing in the world.

A couple things to consider: what about the warrior toolkit makes them bad for picking up mobs in aoe situations? I mean, seriously, what would you want? Sure, I suppose Avenger Shield would be nice to get a group of bloods on Spine, but that's why you have Heroic Leap, etc which tend to have their own little AoE's built into them. You could argue that those AoEs don't hit hard enough, but that would be ignoring that other classes AoE's don't really hit very hard either.

On Spine this week (I'm the blood tank), its nice that my HW, Consecrate and HotR all hit unlimited targets. But they average about 3k/target hit, about half as hard as Deep Wounds ticks for and more like 35-40% as hard as Thunderclap hits for so my abilities don't make mobs stick to me as well as Warrior abilities. While its true that I can have Consecrate up constantly, and if glyphed move it around, I kind of need it on me to hang onto the mobs that I've already got (to make up, comparatively, the weaker threat I'm doing with my other abilities).

Are there specific situations where another class might have a better suited toolkit than a warrior? Of course. Its possible that a fight with lots of streaming adds might be such a situation (though I'm not convinced). But even if it is, there are *plenty* of situations where a warrior's toolkit will be superior to mine (tanking heroic Rag while he's up and walking around comes to mind). Them's the breaks. Sometimes you're not optimal for a situation but you figure out a way to get the job done anyway.
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80 Draenei Shaman
550
Bummer, there goes my favorite Warrior talent.
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