an idea for frenzied regen/damage absorb

90 Night Elf Druid
13000
The idea: If you cast frenzied regen, and the heal exceeds your max health, have it give a damage absorb shield at like 50% the amount it would have healed.

Reason : On those situations, where an undodgeable hit is about to drop on your head (like, a Morchock stomp for example) -- you have something you can actively do besides grit your teeth, close your eyes and hope you have the health to survive it. Even if it's not much, it would seem a more ... elegant usage of your rage.

Also, I've had several times, where right as i hit my frenzied regen, the healer happens to land a fat heal on me, bringing me nearly to full health, and i waste all that rage.

Anyway, food for thought.
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90 Tauren Druid
11045
Savage Defense should have been a Shield Barrier type of ability vs physical damage instead of an rng based chance to dodge something like it is now. Just makes us to susceptible to spike damage they way it is now.
Edited by Uzumatii on 9/3/2012 9:15 AM PDT
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90 Troll Warrior
16215
I have some food for thought as well.

Druids have a higher stamina modifier, dramatically higher armor, and higher magic DR. Can you actually conclusively prove that you need to be on equal footing with Shield Barrier here? Essentially, can you prove that damage that a Warrior can only survive with Shield Barrier will be fatal to you?
Savage Defense should have been a Shield Barrier type of ability vs physical damage instead of an rng based chance to dodge something like it is now. Just makes us to susceptible to spike damage they way it is now.

Your mastery is reliable, your primary AM is not. Warrior Mastery is not reliable, Warrior primary AM is. Paladin Mastery is not reliable, Paladin primary AM is. You don't get both being reliable.
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90 Night Elf Druid
13000
How is our magic DR higher? (serious question... not sure if I missed something in the patch notes.)
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bears get a passive 25% magic damage reduction, I'm pretty sure nobody else has this.
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90 Tauren Druid
11045
Magic mitigation is fine with our passive, I was able to heal myself with FR through Heroic Yor sahj with nothing but a beacon from one of the pallys. FR does not need any absorb added with it.

What we need is a smoother mitigation of physical damage to prevent "spikeyness" that is overly apparent when SD fails because of rng or is on cd and armor is not doing this even at the 70% damage reduction vs boss lvl mobs i am at.

FR is fine an needs no absorb SD needs help vs physical damage.
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
09/03/2012 09:22 AMPosted by Sildas
Druids have a higher stamina modifier, dramatically higher armor, and higher magic DR. Can you actually conclusively prove that you need to be on equal footing with Shield Barrier here? Essentially, can you prove that damage that a Warrior can only survive with Shield Barrier will be fatal to you?

If we don't dodge a certain number of attacks on Thrash we'll die - depending on how high you stack Mastery and Stamina.

We also have a problem with high amounts of bleed damage.

We have been talking about this here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6470847782
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90 Troll Warrior
16215
09/03/2012 09:52 AMPosted by Uzumatii
What we need is a smoother mitigation of physical damage to prevent "spikeyness" that is overly apparent when SD fails because of rng or is on cd and armor is not doing this even at the 70% damage reduction vs boss lvl mobs i am at.

Number one, stop understating your armor. My Druid is at ilevel 391 and has 71.46%; I have 0.9 Mastery more than you, but 1500 armor less in caster form.

Anyways, on to the actual smoothness argument!

In the gear shown, I (Warrior) am at 39,940 armor (60.51%). I also have Defensive Stance for a 15% DR. My aforementioned Druid is at 65,270 (71.46%). Both of these numbers are unbuffed, which skews it slightly towards the Warrior for lack of a mastery buff.

Using a hit of 1000 to test the amount that gets through:

Warrior:
1000 * 0.3949 *0.85 = 335.65

Druid:
1000 * 0.2854 = 285.4

Despite my Warrior being approximately half a tier above my Druid, my Druid is only taking ~28.5% of each melee swing, whereas the Warrior is taking ~33.5%!

Where is this "squishiness" coming from?

09/03/2012 10:16 AMPosted by Arielle
If we don't dodge a certain number of attacks on Thrash we'll die - depending on how high you stack Mastery and Stamina.

Pretty sure Dell was saying that's true for Warriors too. Except for the mastery stacking part.

Edit: Also given the hilarious combat log excerpts he was linking, I don't think Shield Barrier is going to help either if we're not getting some good luck with blocks/avoids.
Edited by Sildas on 9/3/2012 10:24 AM PDT
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Bleeds ignore armor so I'm guessing those are a problem for everyone.

I think that Sha of Fear is going to have all tanks gearing differently than they would for a normal fight, maybe just gem/chant/forge different, but I can also see building a different set with pieces that favor mastery and avoidance.

Sheild block will guarantee a reduction of 30% on all hits, and 60% on ones that get critically blocked. Yes, you'd have to basically crit block one, and block another to equal a bear dodging one, but i think in the end it all RNGs out. Unless the poor bear rolls snakeyes :(
Edited by Alifer on 9/3/2012 10:28 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Druid
11045
On paper yes it works out correctly like it should

Add rng in to an actual fight

Go tank heroic morchok on your druid and then do it on your warrior

Then ask the healers which was easier for them.

we are just too spikey currently, find a way to smooth the spikes from physical damage out a little and we will be fine.
Edited by Uzumatii on 9/3/2012 10:37 AM PDT
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90 Troll Druid
17320
How much health do we have over other tanks? I've been looking into that for awhile but didnt find many answers.

Pretty sure Dell was saying that's true for Warriors too. Except for the mastery stacking part.


Using shield block before trash ensures that you will block every single hit, providing a guaranteed 30% damage reduction (And a chance to reduce even more). Bears have a chance to not dodge anything, thus dieing. If our flavor is indeed to have high mitigation and hp but a RNG active mitigation, we should have the tools to deal with trash outside of using the same cooldowns everybody has.

Either we should get enough hp/mitigation to survive it (Would probably be pretty OP), or modify our active mitigation to include some DR.. like making Savage defense reduce incoming damage by 10% and increase our chance to dodge by 30% to compensate. Numbers can be toyed with ofc. 10% DR on savage defense would still make us take more damage than a warrior blocking but getting no crit blocks, but it'd put us closer, we'd just need to have the stam to compensate..
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90 Tauren Druid
11045
09/03/2012 10:53 AMPosted by Dreyen
How much health do we have over other tanks? I've been looking into that for awhile but didnt find many answers.


DK's kill us now in the hp department and we have slightly higher HP than warriors/pallys equally geared.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
10250
On paper yes it works out correctly like it should

Add rng in to an actual fight

Go tank heroic morchok on your druid and then do it on your warrior

Then ask the healers which was easier for them.

we are just too spikey currently, find a way to smooth the spikes from physical damage out a little and we will be fine.


Or, why not post a World of Logs for a Warrior and Druid, and we can review the damage taken for the fight on the graph and compare spikes that way? Most of us don't have an equally geared Druid and Warrior available, and this sounds a more empirical way of doing it, rather than using "He said/She said"

09/03/2012 10:53 AMPosted by Dreyen
Using shield block before trash ensures that you will block every single hit, providing a guaranteed 30% damage reduction (And a chance to reduce even more). Bears have a chance to not dodge anything, thus dieing. If our flavor is indeed to have high mitigation and hp but a RNG active mitigation, we should have the tools to deal with trash outside of using the same cooldowns everybody has.


True, however, if you examined Sildas comment, you are naturally taking around 5% less damage due to the higher armor, which should make your spikes lesser in magnitude over Warrior and Paladins, when they take an unmodified hit, though Druids are more likely to see a spike in damage. It also looks that Guardians are gaining around an extra 5% of Stamina (Bear Form provides 20% increase to Stamina, compared to Sentinel for Warriors providing 15%).
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90 Pandaren Warrior
10250
09/03/2012 11:05 AMPosted by Uzumatii
How much health do we have over other tanks? I've been looking into that for awhile but didnt find many answers.


DK's kill us now in the hp department and we have slightly higher HP than warriors/pallys equally geared.


And, what is their armor like for the most part, compared to Shield tanks and Guardian Druids? As well, Death Knights mastery provides no passive benefits - Death Knights are a full active Mitigation class - there's very little that is passive about how a DK reduces damage.
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DKs only recieved a buff to stamina as a precursor to some other nerf to make them spikier (according to GC), because they were needing "too little healing" (same reason the monk's got their energy regen nerfed, and a re-balancing of stagger). In the same thread he said that warriors and bears were taking "too much damage" and that they were looking into ways to increase rage generation (slightly) to allow for more uses of the active mitigation abilities.
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90 Troll Druid
17320
Roignus, yes we passively take less damage, but i was talking about high damage abilities/burst from bosses getting mitigated by active mitigation.. warriors get a sure-shot 30% damage reduction and we get a rng 45% dodge which has more chances to make us go splat against mechanics lke dread trash on the sha of fear encounter.
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90 Night Elf Druid
13785
09/03/2012 11:26 AMPosted by Dreyen
Roignus, yes we passively take less damage, but i was talking about high damage abilities/burst from bosses getting mitigated by active mitigation.. warriors get a sure-shot 30% damage reduction and we get a rng 45% dodge which has more chances to make us go splat against mechanics lke dread trash on the sha of fear encounter.


Dread Thrash will NOT simply be a matter of hitting Shield Block and being hunky-dory and the rest of us going splat. Its a SIX hit attack that will flatten pretty much any of us without a significant CD available (and probably the specialized buff in P2 as well), so I'm not worried about Dread Thrash that much.

I'm more worried about plain old Thrash, the trio hit, that happens every 10 seconds. It lines up perfectly with pretty much everyone's physical mitigation AM button; however, in order for a Guardian to reliably survive that mechanic, we'll need enough Stamina/Mastery to ensure we can weather it without Dodging successfully. I find that lame that the button doesn't really matter on a worst-case scenario... but on the other hand we're directly building into the other side of our AM and defensive system by stacking Mastery. Stacking Mastery on a Druid is still odd to me because of how historically BAD our defensive stuff has been.

Because of Sha of Fear alone, much like Lich King in ICC, we'll likely stack ourselves silly with Stamina/Mastery up to that EH threshold of Thrash survival, and then ease off from there, based on our progression expectation.

And we're not "squishy" so I'm pretty sick of hearing about that over and over, especially right now.
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
09/03/2012 12:24 PMPosted by Fasc
Because of Sha of Fear alone, much like Lich King in ICC, we'll likely stack ourselves silly with Stamina/Mastery up to that EH threshold of Thrash survival, and then ease off from there, based on our progression expectation.

Which isn't a bad thing really. If you're doing heroic progression it's kind of expected that you change your setup depending on what you are doing.

For Normal mode I don't think it'll be an issue.
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Mostly because normal mode doesn't have dread thrash, and each mele swing will be dealing less damage methinks.
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