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I know another thread about the vengence changes. I dont want to complain about them, but I do have a suggestion. For certain encounters the new vengence model makes tank swaps nearly impossible. For example, HM madness. Once Tank A takes a impale and tank B goes to taunt, tank B is unable to overcome tank A's threat table. During my guilds HM Madness run we have always ran two tanks. This week when my blood dk took the impale I was unable to overcome his threat even after multiple taunts and blowing incarnation. Our only solution was to have the tank that took the impale to run away and sit in the back with nothing to do. We ended up seeing this as just a plain waste and we 1 tanked it since the nerf makes the fight trivial anyways. I am just concerned with this vengence model on bosses that we will have to do taunt switches. My suggestion is that we give every tank a aggro reset ability. For example allowing Guardian tanks to use cower in guardian spec. Thanks!
The problem with heroic Madness isn't so much the tank swap, it's the huge freaking damage from the impale. Did you try taunting later? You've got the whole time between impales to let vengeance settle down a bit.
Alternatively, what Freph said. Or switch out of blood presence.
Combat tables, diminishing returns and you!
Edited by Waniou on 9/7/2012 4:11 AM PDT
Take it first then. Alternatively, you're not new, you have timers; it's on a predictable timer, taunt right before Impale is cast. He'll have lost his massive Vengeance boost at that point as well, so you may not even lose aggro.
That seems to fly in the face of how taunt works. He should have had your threat +10% when he taunted.
Also, after the other tank has taunted, the first tank can back out of melee range to guarantee it goes to the second tank.
Yes thats what we had to do.. taunt then back our of range. However on a boss that is able to follow the tank(IE: not the corruption) this could still make it problematic. Like I said. We were still able to overcome the headache. I just fear doing LFR with a new tank. It shouldnt have to be so much work to overcome another tank in threat when your co-tanking a boss.
for madness, have the OT taunt when the cooldown for impale is about to pop up.
your mt will be doing over 100k DPS, and you probably won't get impale #2.
There's no disadvantage to tanking with the debuff until the 2nd impale is coming.
edit; should of read all instead of just half the replies, was already said.
The only thing with that is. During a LFR do you really think some new tank is going to know what a cancelaura macro is?
in LFR, you can take 1st impale no CD, and take 2nd with a cd, so there's no need to worry about the other tank screwing up, if he does, just solo tank the rest.
If you're getting 3 impales in LFR, drop group
Edited by Wonabag on 9/7/2012 5:43 AM PDT
Then let them die and get b'rez'd; they'll learn. Sink or swim, baby.
This has ALWAYS been an issue, even before vengeance. It's simply part of 2 tanking. To your original point, not only can tanks just cancel vengeance, every tank does have a way to generate less threat:
Pally: Turn off righteous fury
Warrior: Switch to battle stance
DK: Switch to unholy presence
Druid: Switch to kitty
The tools are there, it's just a matter of tanks knowing to use them. No matter what you give people, some tanks will just not do it right.
We had a tank in ulduar who used taunt in his rotation because it was the only way he could remotely hold aggro, and never used CD's because "he was saving them for emergencies". We were like "well you're dying, maybe this counts?"
Pally: Turn off righteous fury
Good thing we're talking about 2 tank fights then.
The impale is unique in a few aspects
It's a short resetting agro table (as in, every platform, you have a new threat table on a mob only being tanked for a few seconds, which makes taunts weaker)
You have the over 1m damage spike that is literally broken with the uncapped vengeance change.
And you have damage buffs that throw it off even furhter.
All of these add up to something you won't see very often, if ever again.
Transitions on fights like Warmaster are what you should expect, and that fight, is honestly not a problem as taunt is god mode for it.
Blackhorn p2 is kind of the model taunt back and forth encounter.
The fact of the matter is, when you get that 250k attack power from the impale, your dot alone will out threat the other tank, and most groups decide to taunt off during that impale, which is only about 10s after the tentacle is out... 10s of threat, then taunt doesn't add up to very much. In traditional 2 tank encounters, vengeance isn't working too bad.
Edited by Wonabag on 9/7/2012 6:27 AM PDT
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