5.0 Hunter Feedback for Blizzard :)

85 Human Hunter
4335
This is going to be a post about some opinions/feelings of mine about the current state of Hunters in PvP in the 5.0 patch.

First off, you guys get a lot of ridiculous negative feedback, very often times unwarranted and exaggerated. Unfortunately most people who are happy/content don't voice their happiness, but unhappy people are way more likely to give feedback so it seems like you get mostly complaints.

So I'd like to start by saying, I am loving 5.0 as a whole (not even just pertaining to the classes I play), it feels really fun and great so far. This is the most balanced a Pre-Expansion patch has ever been, I've been having a ton of fun in BG's/Wargames so far. So great job, I'm really impressed/shocked with how well it's turning out.

Balancing a new expansion where everything is drastically changed is not easy, and Wargames right now are definitely fun and playable, not psychotic like the previous pre-expansion patches! :P

Also I'd like to thank you for taking the Aspect GCD concerns seriously and making changes in the Beta, I think I'd still prefer not having spam aspect swapping, even with functional macros, because it feels clunky, but I'll take what I can get.

Okay so now that my gratitude is out of the way! On to some things I'd like to mention.

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Specialization Discrepancies

Currently in 5.0 all 3 specs feel relatively the same damage wise (maybe Survival is lacking a bit, haven't played it enough). I hate BM play style so I'm glad that MM is still feeling great in PvP.

However, one concern I have is that I almost feel punished for playing MM over the other 2 specs, purely because MM offers NO unique utility at all.

BM gets Beastial Wrath which acts as another PvP trinket (which can be reset with readiness, so essentially 2 extra PvP trinkets if you're BM).

Survival gets Trap Mastery + Entrapment, also very delicious utility that the other specs don't have.

Marksman has nothing special at all. I'm not very good at thinking up creative ideas for what Marksman could offer over the other specs as far as unique utility goes, but I'm sure you guys can think of something, even if it's 1 small thing :) I really love the MM playstyle, but I don't want to feel guilty for not taking advantage of superior utility, especially when MM doesn't offer more damage either.

I would be extremely happy if Marksman had a 3 minute Cooldown version of Readiness as it's "unique utility". Not sure if this is a possible consideration or if it would make the spec too powerful (doubt it, but I can't be sure), but I would be unbelievably happy with that.

I also do not like that our PET based Talents get a huge bonus as Beast Master spec. Lynx Rush/Blink Strike, Dire Beast, even the baseline ability Stampede. I feel like entire talent tiers being vastly better for 1 Specialization is a poor design. Maybe it's intended to be part of the BM benefits package, which is TOTALLY FINE with me if that's the intention, but until Marksman gets some sort of unique utility/benefits over the other Specs (BM already gets extra pvp trinkets!), I see this as a problem.

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Concussive Shot Glyph Gone :(

I miss the Conc Shot glyph. I don't know if this is a valid concern because I'm not 100% sure if it will be balanced or not in the current state of the game and in MoP, but considering our only real single target snare has a cooldown and requires roughly 20% of our Global Cooldowns to maintain on a target, having the extra utility of slowing people to 50% through speed increases was amazing in the right situations.

I could actually use it as a form of CC (keeping a healer out of LoS of his target by snaring him while he's already out of LoS, even suppressing ghost wolf freedom, etc), or keeping the healer out of healing range when his teammate is over extending. It was situational but great!

Someone in another thread suggested this could be passive for Marksman spec only, since Marksman lacks any unique utility right now. I do NOT want it back in the form of a glyph, however, as it just wouldn't be worth using over all the other amazing glyphs.

However this isn't the end of the world, if this doesn't get re-added to the game I won't throw a tantrum, I just really loved Conc Shot glyph a lot! It made the snare way more reliable, especially with all the sprints people have now (although I could see this conflicting with rogue mobility pretty badly since they lost prep+ShS combo especially).

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Dodge/Parry on CC's

NOTE: I haven't actually experienced a dodged/parried CC yet in 5.0 wargames, this is probably because I have like 6.3% expertise and healers don't have much dodge/parry, so forgive me if this is a non-issue even at level 90 (I have not played the beta). It's just a "possible concern" so if I'm completely wrong on this, feel free to correct/ignore this.

I'm really glad the deadzone is gone, so we don't get totally owned on maps like Dalaran Sewers or just trying to finish people who are "pillar humping" all day.

I do not like the RNG added that melee classes have to deal with though. Now, don't get me wrong, adding that RNG to our damaging shots is totally fine and fair, it makes sense since we aren't the same as casters, our damage can't be dispelled and most of it doesn't have to be cast, and even casted shots cannot be interrupted with counterspells/kicks like a caster.

So I DO agree with dodge/parry affecting our shots, except when it comes to CC.

One problem is, we don't really have a stun like most Melee. When a rogue/warrior/etc wants to get some guaranteed damage off, they know they can stun the target and disable dodge/parry mechanics for burst moments - we don't really have that option since our only stuns are Binding Shot (which is a horribly bad ability to begin with, especially when your other option is Silencing Shot), and Intimidation. Both of which are very short 3 second stuns and even Intimidation is likely to get dodge/parried often (and is BM spec only to boot).

I'm okay with dodges/parries in general though, it's a perfectly reasonable balance change, as much as I hate RNG. However, I do not like the idea of my scatters/silences being randomly dodged. A melee class can guarantee no dodge/parry by moving behind a target before using a stun, for instance; as a hunter I don't even think that mechanic works for Scatter/Silence, and even so it would be extremely odd to do based on the way you position as a ranged class.

One of the best things about PvP is setting up CC chains and executing them well as a team, having a vital CC randomly miss could EASILY cause a loss, purely based on random chance, and I think we can all agree by now that this type of game-deciding RNG is not good for PvP balance.

Now, I don't know values at level 90 since i haven't touched the beta, maybe you can easily reforge enough Expertise to eliminate healer dodge/parry chance and it won't matter as much if DPS specs/classes dodge CC every now and then, but having a healer randomly avoid my CC will be incredibly bad, it would be like a rogue going for a vanish cheapshot CC and having it randomly miss - absolutely devastating and 100% luck based.

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Glyph of Marked for Death, ew!

I think this is my last concern unless I think of something else and edit. But I'd first like to say you've done an amazing job with the Glyph/Talent system, it's the first time in this game since Vanilla where I thought options/choices really mattered and Cookie Cutter won't really exist.

However, Glyph of Marked for Death is a problem for me. It goes against your own, philosophy for glyphs/talents, which is to be flavor/utility choices, and not about +dmg increases. I don't need to explain why +dmg increases from talents/glyphs are not ideal, you guys have made several posts over the years explaining that yourselves :)

I feel obligated to take that glyph because it's +5% all damage (and lets get real, no one is going to constantly apply Hunter's Mark in pvp, you swap targets too often at times, can't afford the GCD's for it, will get dispelled pretty frequently, etc)

I'm very happy with the fun glyph choices we have so far, I just sort of wish this glyph didn't exist so I didn't feel obligated to get it.

It's sorta like the human racial, giving up substantial damage for fun utility is always such a painful, not-very-fun choice to make.

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TRAP LAUNCHER TOGGLE - I HATE IT

Almost forgot to add this one. I cannot stand the Toggle functionality of Trap Launcher. Removing the focus cost was GREAT, but I set traps VERY often in PvP and do NOT like launching. I'd say I set traps 70% of the time and launch 30%. Constantly having to toggle this on and off is so obnoxious and I don't even see a benefit to this functionality, it was super easy to push Trap Launcher for each individual trap you want to launch.

I know a lot of hunters LAUNCH exclusively and never set traps, but that is NOT a good thing, that's playing inefficiently, setting traps is superior 100% of the time if you are in range of the desired trap location. This is due to sneakiness (launching is way more obvious), and trigger time (travel time to launch makes trigger time longer).

The new toggle mechanic really interferes with the way I place traps (since i only want to launch in specific situations). The main issue is, even though it's off the global and can be cancelled off the global, when you use it you can't even cancel it instantly after launching your first trap because Trap Launcher itself is STILL on the global for .5~ seconds, it's SUPER annoying.

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Oh, one last NON HUNTER SPECIFIC thing......

Human Racial......I hate it. I hate always feeling obligated to be human because the Racial provides such a significant damage increase. It's similar to glyph choices...damage vs utility/fun, bad options! I miss playing NE, and although I could, when competing in top level arena play I feel not taking the advantage of what seems to be the obviously best alliance racial for a DPS class, but GOSH DURNIT I DON'T ENJOY BEING HUMAN! :P

Minor concern, I could suck it up and lose damage for style/flavor, but it just feels bad, not a fun choice :(

Unfortunately I have no suggestions for changing it into something more unique/fun, and since this is a low priority kinda thing I don't expect it to get changed, just throwin it out there.

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Thanks for reading this massive post, again I'm very, very pleased with the changes made in 5.0 and I'm enjoying it greatly, you've outdone yourselves this time.

P.S. Explosive trap glyph is the best thing you've ever done for my class in the FUN department ;)


Also:
Guys don't forget to upvote the original post if you agree to help Blizzard see it. Thanks!


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UPDATE/EDIT:

Pets Still Die Way Too Easily!

As most people know by now, at 90 any spec besides BM is pretty unplayable. It really sucks to depend on your pet so greatly and have it die so easily. People in high end arena are actually using the "train pets until it's dead, kill it after it resses with heart of the phoenix, and then chase the Hunter and never let him Revive it!" strategy to great effect and there's not much you can do about it. The pet is your backbone and it is pretty easily removed right now, regardless of focusing full heals on the pet.

Z Axis and Pet Movement Speed is Nightmarish

I'm the type of player that is willing to adapt and play whatever spec is most viable/powerful to succeed in PvP. I'm more than willing to go from my favorite spec (MM) to my least favorite spec (BM). BM has the same utility MM had and more so I don't hate the spec as much as I used to, but pets are the most obnoxious liability and limitation I've ever experienced in this game.

With insane jumping mobility of certain classes, like druids being able to Wild Charge so frequently (up to their own mushrooms even, so it's pretty dependable), life grips, warlock portals (don't forget symbiosis sharing some of these with the druid as well).

Z Axis maps are just insanely limiting to BM hunters. Ferocity pet movement speed is pathetically slow, and it takes it a year and a half to waddle around down to the target, only to have them leap/get gripped/teleport back up and have the pet run ALLLLLLLLL the way back again, at horribly slow speeds, in addition to them sitting a million AoE CC's all the time.

Now, them sitting CC's is fine, I get that, that's not my complaint at all, simply Z Axis + Horribly slow movement. Something needs to be changed regarding this or Blade's Edge/Dalaran Sewers are going to be nightmarish for Hunters (assuming of course BM stays the premiere PvP spec).

I have a few suggestions:

1) Make pets jump down Z Axis when chasing a target (this might be too good and against some fundamental design though)
2) Make Kill Command jump to targets up and down levels like Blink Strike
3) Make Ferocity pets run faster in general

I can't think of anything better than these.

Some people may say Blink Strike is the proper solution, but it's really not. First off, it's a 20 second cooldown and our strongest single target attack so you'll often have to use it for damage, and then have the Z Axis issue arise while it's on cooldown in all likelihood, so this isn't a real solution.

Furthermore, Blink Strike requires LoS and often times your pet will not go to the edge of the bridge/ledge and be in LoS in the first place.

Thanks for reading!
Edited by Rykinia on 10/8/2012 12:14 AM PDT
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90 Human Hunter
11320
Hey Tosan. I actually just posted my own thread a few minutes ago before seeing yours about changes I thought would be fair. It'd be awesome if you took a look and gave your thoughts. I don't have the experience you have, but I like to think I know what I'm talking about (2200 last season).

Completely agree with the Trap Launcher which I didn't mention in my post. I hate the new version. I now just leave it on all the time because I kept forgetting whether it was up or not and kept placing traps when I wanted to throw them, and vis versa. It makes me feel like I have a lot less control over my character.

Agree about Marked for Death too. They were supposed to do away with the static damage glyphs (like +12% to Arcane Shot). Marked for Death is essentially the same thing.

As for Human...I'd rather be UD in MoP. With Blood Fear and Psyfiend (I mean really? Fear was already the most annoying spell in the game, now we just have 2 fears on crack) I really want WotF aha.
Edited by Kiote on 9/10/2012 5:17 PM PDT
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85 Human Hunter
4335


Bottom line is, conc shot really needs something to give it a bit of an advantage over no CD/automatic snares, especially since it's affected by expertise.


This is a great point I didn't think of. Having our only snare get dodged is devastating, not only does it cost us a GCD like it does for everyone else (which is fine), but on top of that it's not spammable so we have no chance of trying again with our next GCD.


I'd also like to mention that Survival cannot use glyphed explosive trap without sacrificing the damage from black arrow. I'm not sure if this is an oversight, or if the developers noticed and intended to keep the shared CD, but I feel that this mechanic is outdated and would like to see the CDs separated.

I knew I was forgetting something! I definitely intended to include this in my post, thanks for mentioning this. That was my biggest problem with SV and why I refuse to play it.
Edited by Rykinia on 9/10/2012 5:00 PM PDT
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90 Undead Warrior
10400
For Marked for Death, I'm not sure you're on to something there. You're advising they take away the glyph, that's just a nerf for hunters in PVP, pure and simple. Now instead of getting hunter's mark free when you open your rotation with a cheap arcane, you're either not getting the debuff on your target, or you're wasting a GCD applying it.

As for the Human racial, I think you're overestimating the use of a second damage trinket, or underestimating the use of other racials.
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85 Human Hunter
4335
09/10/2012 05:13 PMPosted by Stark
For Marked for Death, I'm not sure you're on to something there. You're advising they take away the glyph, that's just a nerf for hunters in PVP, pure and simple. Now instead of getting hunter's mark free when you open your rotation with a cheap arcane, you're either not getting the debuff on your target, or you're wasting a GCD applying it.


Well, I meant that it should be baseline tbh.

You're misunderstanding though, it's not about casting hunters mark in pvp because you absolutely cannot afford to do that consistently (besides when the gates open). The global for it is too costly. I wouldn't mind it being removed and losing the 5% dmg and being balanced around that, or having Marked for Death baseline, either way I think it's not a fun choice/good design.

You might think "if marked for death is baseline then what's the point of hunters mark?". Well it still can be placed on targets to see them stealth/invis, and it can still be applied to affect your opener, before you use any of those other attacks. Just in the pace of arena, it's outdated to be expected to recast Hunter's mark over and over, and feeling gimp for not choosing the glyph doesn't contribute to fun.


As for the Human racial, I think you're overestimating the use of a second damage trinket, or underestimating the use of other racials.


Some racials are on par with the damage, like WotF for instance, but I don't think most other racials are. It's pretty significant. It's not like Orcs either who have a weaker +dmg racial but in addition get other minor benefits like Hardiness and the +pet dmg along with it.
Edited by Rykinia on 9/10/2012 5:19 PM PDT
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85 Human Paladin
5840
09/10/2012 06:06 PMPosted by Dieyoung
I can tell that your not a BM bestial wrath has been nerfed into uselessness kill command is much better. and you are right about the racials every man for himself is useless now a pvp trinket gives pvp power and resilence the pve trinkets have very little use in pvp. oh and dont forget for the entire life of wotlk BM was a joke those of us who love BM couldnt pvp because we were the 2nd worst spec in the entire game its about time we get some love


Beastcleave?
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90 Undead Hunter
11090
Bravo, I am glad someone decided to point out that dumb hunters mark glyph & human racial.

And the trap launcher is annoying, who knows how many times i forget to toggle it off because global cd after 1st use, then when i try to lay trap it makes me throw it and a warrior intervenes it during the launch / time it takes to go off.

TOSAN FOR PRESIDENT!

And if blizzard does read this, i too am very very very pleased with the outcome of the new patch! =) GJ
Edited by Rastorok on 9/10/2012 7:42 PM PDT
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90 Orc Hunter
10305
talent ability (including all pet ability) should be benefit from AP or ALL mastery rating, instead of beast mastery only.
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90 Blood Elf Hunter
10780
09/10/2012 06:06 PMPosted by Dieyoung
can tell that your not a BM bestial wrath has been nerfed into uselessness kill command is much better.


Uh... what?
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90 Undead Hunter
10140
Been waiting for this post, nice feedback
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87 Undead Hunter
8000
They should make our 4pc PvP set make non damaging shots undodgable or shots fired while at 100 focus undodgable.

They're having an AMA on Reddit tomorrow maybe someone can ask about it and have the question *dodged*, lol.

ot: The fact that...

Snake trap is useless for every spec but survival

and

Explosive Trap glyph is useful for every spec but survival

brings balance to the force.
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24 Troll Hunter
6465
I'm sure there is plenty of focus at end-game, but 5.0 isn't all roses.

In the 20-24 bracket, survival was nerfed to dealing 23% of the damage it previously did to patch 5.0.4 (and this is not including the 40% DR in PvP).

I can't correlate the other specs directly pre and post patch, but compared to my pre-5.0.4 Survival damage MM does about 72%, and BM seems to be about 47%.

Suffice to say, low level ranged weapon stats were not scaled appropriately to comp for the loss of main-hand stat sticks, and explosive shot was scaled waaaay back.

I'm sure everyone has heard how hunters were OP in the low level brackets, which was true, but now they aren't. Hey, at least Explosive shot is only 25 focus cost now instead of 40. I don't know what I'd do if I didn't get that extra 15 focus every 6 seconds while dealing my 14%_of_pre-5.0.4 damage. Haha
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90 Human Hunter
9490
I agree with the human racial part, i hate having to be human for the advantage.

I think the old conc shot was a bit OP but now im realizing how much we kind of need it lol...

keep doin what your doin tosan, your a huge inspiration

edit: Also, anyone else notice Thrill of the Hunt is either bugged/OP? it procs off of itself and it seems very good.. I really never have to go into fox because im either spamming arcane shot or i can deal with standing still for a steady shot for 2 casts, then i max focus and back to spamming o.O
Edited by Ikiteforfood on 9/10/2012 11:01 PM PDT
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90 Human Hunter
11320
09/10/2012 10:59 PMPosted by Ikiteforfood
I think the old conc shot was a bit OP but now im realizing how much we kind of need it lol...


Tried a feral yet who took the 15% passive talent? With my conc shot on him he still had 83% move speed. Could not kite him for my life since he was also dodging half of my conc shots. Proceeded to get destroyed.
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85 Orc Hunter
0
Looking good, although I have to say I like the new trap launcher. It is a pain in the !@# to get used to and I do keep forgetting to toggle it on and off but I like only having to hit it once to launch traps. By default I keep it toggled on for PvE and toggle it off if I need to and vice versa in PvP.

I personally would also like to add that I am not a big fan of the direction Blizzard wants to take Hunters. It seems as if they want us flooding with focus to minimize time spent in Fox, which is how I can see them justifying the nerf now. Thing is, I don't want to be flooded with Focus. I liked the old pre-5.0.1. Hunter where I couldn't jump around for twenty seconds straight without casting a single steady because of TotH procs or because I just popped Fervor or Dire Beast, which have super short CDs as it is. I'd rather my other damage be boosted (Chimera, Black Arrow, Explosive, I'm looking at you.) and to spend more time casting Steady Shots. (Without a GCD on Aspects of course.) Not to mention how it's interfering with keeping Steady Aim for Marks up and forcing us into unorthodox methods of refreshing SS, like with a MS for Survival instead of Cobra Shot.
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