Resto Shaman or Resto Druid for MoP?

50 Human Priest
14170
Shaman, totemic restoration is amazing when you know how and when to cut your HTT short since sometimes it's not needed for the entire duration. If a fight only requires 5s of HTT, you can basically cut the CD by half so you can use it again after a minute and a half.


This is untrue. TR gives UP TO 50% cooldown reduction. For the shaman to get the timer cut in half, HTT would have to be destroyed the instant it went down. Under your hypothetical, the cooldown get 25% lower. About the only totem that you can get the cooldown cut in half and its still somewhat effective is SLT and that's only if you need the first tick of the health balancing. The rest of the totems won't have their cooldowns reduced by half unless you pretty much waste the totem and don't get any affect from throwing it down in the first place.

TR is a crap talent along with the other two choices in that tier.



To say Shaman cannot raid heal is just wrong. Yes, on some fights where people are spread out or have to move all the time other classes may have an easier time of it but it doesn't mean that Shaman cannot heal.


Unless resto shaman glyph riptide, spread raid healing in 10m does not exist for them. Its that simple. Resto shaman are forced into using the RT glyph.

I do agree HTT is amazing. I'm anxious about it because it is so amazing, especially considering Conductivity is one of the worst talents ever for any class or spec and its in the same tier. I am unsure how long HTT will stay how it is.
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90 Draenei Shaman
8385
Unless resto shaman glyph riptide, spread raid healing in 10m does not exist for them. Its that simple. Resto shaman are forced into using the RT glyph.


The primary reason for RT glyph is for constant tidal waves up time. More tidal waves, higher throughput.

Glyph of chaining is for spread healing.
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50 Human Priest
14170
The primary reason for RT glyph is for constant tidal waves up time. More tidal waves, higher throughput.

Glyph of chaining is for spread healing.


No. You are wrong. The glyph of RT is for a spammable HoT when you need to spread heal. The TW up time is incidental to that. Glyph of Chaining is awful and makes CH a crap spell. I can't recall one time in that past when I needed to use CH and I only hit it once. When you need to use CH, you need to use it multiple times in a row. The chaining glyph prevents this.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
9780
The primary reason for RT glyph is for constant tidal waves up time. More tidal waves, higher throughput.

Glyph of chaining is for spread healing.


No. You are wrong. The glyph of RT is for a spammable HoT when you need to spread heal. The TW up time is incidental to that. Glyph of Chaining is awful and makes CH a crap spell. I can't recall one time in that past when I needed to use CH and I only hit it once. When you need to use CH, you need to use it multiple times in a row. The chaining glyph prevents this.


I agree with your first point completely. I have seen this before -- people stating it is for tidal waves. If you factor in the global cooldowns and spell rotation I do not see the benefit of spamming RT for the sole purpose of keeping TW up.

As for chaining, since you can swap glyphs during raids (as far as I know) there are fights that may benefit from using it. I mean if you a chain heal hits its targets every four seconds (I think that is the cooldown) vs not using it on some fights then it is a benefit. I am not completely writing that glyph off just yet until I have a chance to raid in the expansion. Is it useless in DS? Pretty much yes and to be honest I havent even tried it yet. Yes, I do agree it could use some work (like buff the chain heal by 25% or something if they insist on the cooldown) -- useless under every situation after next Tues? Don't know.

My biggest gripe with the new patch is the glyphs. I have many issues with the new glyph system but I'll wait and see after exp is launched.

One more point about RT glpyh, it boosts our healing on the move a bit.
Edited by Sulphur on 9/14/2012 4:25 PM PDT
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I think our biggest down fall is mana regen. True our spread healing is bad, but not as big of a problem as our mana.

After finally getting Heroic madness, it just made me sad with the prospects of my shaman in the future.

My group 2 healed 1 tanked H Mad. We had a DK tank and i healed along side a resto druid with very comparable gear to mine. Through out the fight i had MTT on CD, had our boomy druid pumping me with innervate on CD and had to call for our Spriests mana regen thingy...cant remember what it is called. I also used potion of concentration.

I OOM'd twice during the fight even though i was trying to heal with mana control in mind. Top heal was healing wave with 26%, closely followed by riptide and healing rain.
By the end of the fight i was oom for the third time, while my co healer druid never dropped below 35%... All he used was his personal Innervate, of which he put 1 on me during the fight.

Now i realise the druid got the benefit from MTT and from the Spriest ability. But i was getting a increase from Innervate and i carry over 1k more spirit then he does.
I did out heal the druid 35k HPS to his 29k HPS, but this was largely due to HTT being as strong as it is.

It makes me wonder if there is any point to resto sham at 90. I don't mind being mana concious, but i hate feeling like im holding the raid back because i run out of steam half way through the fight.
It also makes me ask, why should i have to rely on so many of my team mates to help me with mana control when druids are so capable of looking after themselves?
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90 Orc Hunter
8290


No. You are wrong. The glyph of RT is for a spammable HoT when you need to spread heal. The TW up time is incidental to that. Glyph of Chaining is awful and makes CH a crap spell. I can't recall one time in that past when I needed to use CH and I only hit it once. When you need to use CH, you need to use it multiple times in a row. The chaining glyph prevents this.


I agree with your first point completely. I have seen this before -- people stating it is for tidal waves. If you factor in the global cooldowns and spell rotation I do not see the benefit of spamming RT for the sole purpose of keeping TW up.

As for chaining, since you can swap glyphs during raids (as far as I know) there are fights that may benefit from using it. I mean if you a chain heal hits its targets every four seconds (I think that is the cooldown) vs not using it on some fights then it is a benefit. I am not completely writing that glyph off just yet until I have a chance to raid in the expansion. Is it useless in DS? Pretty much yes and to be honest I havent even tried it yet. Yes, I do agree it could use some work (like buff the chain heal by 25% or something if they insist on the cooldown) -- useless under every situation after next Tues? Don't know.

My biggest gripe with the new patch is the glyphs. I have many issues with the new glyph system but I'll wait and see after exp is launched.

One more point about RT glpyh, it boosts our healing on the move a bit.


No Glyph of chaining is bad. To punitive in fights when the raid groups up. Can't think of a fight where the group is spead for the whole fight. Just not worth the crappy throughput for spread phases. One Chain every 6.5 seconds is just not good. For spread phases it will be riptide and single target heals for 10 man raiders plus blow a cooldown when things get desperate. Think back to T11.
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50 Human Priest
14170
I agree with your first point completely. I have seen this before -- people stating it is for tidal waves. If you factor in the global cooldowns and spell rotation I do not see the benefit of spamming RT for the sole purpose of keeping TW up.


The T14 4pc also. It gives 3x TW on RT.


As for chaining, since you can swap glyphs during raids (as far as I know) there are fights that may benefit from using it. I mean if you a chain heal hits its targets every four seconds (I think that is the cooldown) vs not using it on some fights then it is a benefit. I am not completely writing that glyph off just yet until I have a chance to raid in the expansion. Is it useless in DS? Pretty much yes and to be honest I havent even tried it yet. Yes, I do agree it could use some work (like buff the chain heal by 25% or something if they insist on the cooldown) -- useless under every situation after next Tues? Don't know.


You are right. If a fight has no group-up phase where you would use HR, the chaining glyph would be fine to use with RT as long as you have that glyph slot open for it. The problem is, a fight like this really sucks for resto shaman because the stacked healing is what we are the best at. Most fights have a stacked phase too which makes it so that the glyph is a poor choice. I hope most fights have a stack phase just so I don't feel like a liability to the raid.

I very much don't like that I have to glyph my spread healing. Its a ridiculous notion that one healer spec should have to give up their glyph choices just to be viable to raid. No other healer spec has to do this but shaman.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
11245
Most every fight in T14 has its stack phases. Glyph of Chaining shouldn't be needed ever imo. No mechanics ever require you to be more than 10 yards apart and most are 6-8 yard spreads. If your raid team can't work with you and thinks spread out means run all over the map then it is not CH's fault if they die.
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90 Draenei Shaman
6830
I love my shaman best, but have noticed how much easier it is to heal on my druid. So it's preference, imho. I will always choose my shaman over my other heals because I like it's playstyle better. If you don't have strong feelings, then druid.
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50 Human Priest
14170
09/15/2012 05:38 AMPosted by Harpoa
Most every fight in T14 has its stack phases. Glyph of Chaining shouldn't be needed ever imo. No mechanics ever require you to be more than 10 yards apart and most are 6-8 yard spreads. If your raid team can't work with you and thinks spread out means run all over the map then it is not CH's fault if they die.


The other healers don't need raid participation to help them heal and neither should shaman. The way CH works, you have to be less than the maximum range for it to work. If people stand in a straight line, CH doesn't work right either. People have to stand in a clump formation but spread out no more than 8-9yd to make CH work properly. This is way too much to as people to do in raids plus deal with the mechanics of the fight. The other healers don't have to position their raids just so their spells work. Only shaman have to do that.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
14890
09/13/2012 12:27 PMPosted by Loonetta
Shaman, totemic restoration is amazing when you know how and when to cut your HTT short since sometimes it's not needed for the entire duration. If a fight only requires 5s of HTT, you can basically cut the CD by half so you can use it again after a minute and a half. This type of control over your CDs is going to be really fun to use as a Shaman. Also, if you glyph for it, you can get mana free HST heals by recalling it before it expires, saves you about 4% mana.


You don't understand how Totemic Restoration works. It does not restore the amount of the cooldown/uptime that you lost, it only restores half of it. If you recall/destroy Healing Tide halfway through it's duration, it reduces the cooldown by 45 seconds (goes to a 2:15 cooldown), not by 1.5 minutes. Totemic Restoration is always a loss of totem uptime and causes you to get less from your totem cooldowns than using them normally. It's always a really bad idea to recall Mana Tide, and almost always a bad idea to recall Healing Tide or Spirit Link.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
14890
I think that you are somewhat exaggerating how bad Shaman spread AoE healing is.

A few things about it.
1. With the buffs to Healing Rain, it is now mana efficient to use on as few as 3 targets and is more efficient than Riptide/Chain Heal even on 3 targets. In most cases, you can get use out of it, because there is always a few melee and a tank within melee range.
2. Think of Healing Stream Totem as our Wild Growth/Circle of Healing/Light of Dawn equivalent. It effectively is a WG/CoH clone, it just takes 15 seconds to hit 9-10 targets instead of hitting 6 targets immediately.
3. When you think of what druids (generally considered as the best spread AoE healer) do to heal spread AoE - they use WG on CD, keep Lifebloom up, and spam Rejuv. On spread AoE fights, Shaman use HST on CD, keep Earth Shield up, and probably spam glyphed Riptide. I realize that Lifebloom heals for more than Earth Shield and Rejuv generally heals for more than Riptide, but there really isn't that much difference in mechanics.

The biggest issue is going to still be mana regen. Druids are far more capable of maintaining a spread AoE healing rotation mana longevity wise than Shaman are. However, if they were ever able to get regen to a balanced place, I don't think that spread AoE healing will be that awful.
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85 Tauren Shaman
11970
2. Think of Healing Stream Totem as our Wild Growth/Circle of Healing/Light of Dawn equivalent. It effectively is a WG/CoH clone, it just takes 15 seconds to hit 9-10 targets instead of hitting 6 targets immediately.


I would consider HST to be more comparable to PoM that those. It also only heals one target at a time, so it's no different than our other single target heals in that respect. We also have far less control over who it heals, and I surely couldn't rely on HST the same way I can rely on WG or LoD in 10s because of those 5-6 people who were immediately pulled out of danger by that instant healing (and I shouldn't be able to either I guess).

What it really comes down to is the fact that there's really no excuse for Glyph of Chaining to exist, and there should be a baseline jump increase to the spell. Continually having to rely on single target healing for multi-target spread healing situations is getting more and more pathetic to see as time goes on. It's been a (big) problem before so there's no reason to think that it won't be again. Shaman base skills haven't changed enough for the situation to be any different, and as I have said in the past it's extremely disappointing to see the Shaman toolkit go into MoP like this so soon after the Firelands and DS case studies and Blizzard's 4.3 patch notes.

On the other hand, it is good to know that HR's efficiency is that good now (I had no idea). However, as you said, that spell is still very mana prohibitive, and Shaman are a very mana prohibitive class in the first tier of the expansion. I'm wondering how often a Shaman will be able to use it, especially in 10s. I'm also worried it will make the Shaman 10s/25s discrepancy even more of a problem, with 10s frustrated over their kit vs the content and 25s in-depth analysis of "L2P noobs"...again.
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50 Human Priest
14170
09/15/2012 02:41 PMPosted by Tiberria
I think that you are somewhat exaggerating how bad Shaman spread AoE healing is.


What I don't like the most is having to glyph it. If it were just crappy baseline, it would be fine. The problem is that spread healing is non-existent baseline. I have to glyph it just to be terrible at it. Glyphs are supposed to be a choice according to the developers. Right now, for resto shaman in 10m, RT glyph is not a choice.

I also don't like the blanket HoT way of healing. If I wanted to heal like that, I would play a druid. I don't understand what's so bad about giving shaman a spread heal baseline. All the other healers get one baseline (they also get a tank timer). The shaman feels like a cheap ripoff of the druid. Crappy form shift that doesn't work unless you glyph it, check. Crappy HoT to blanket the raid with, check. Tranquility-like spell, check (I do like HTT).

I didn't know HR could be efficient at 3 people. That is great news but it still doesn't help with spread healing all that much. Hitting the melee with it was never a problem plus I would go stand on the outside of it to make it more efficient if I could. The problem is hitting the range/other healers with my AoE healing without glyphing RT. I want to be able to choose my glyphs. I'm not talking about that I want to choose ele or enh glyphs for resto. I am saying I want to choose which three glyphs to use out of the appropriate glyphs. RT is not a choice.



09/16/2012 01:39 PMPosted by Gumshoe
On the other hand, it is good to know that HR's efficiency is that good now (I had no idea). However, as you said, that spell is still very mana prohibitive, and Shaman are a very mana prohibitive class in the first tier of the expansion. I'm wondering how often a Shaman will be able to use it, especially in 10s. I'm also worried it will make the Shaman 10s/25s discrepancy even more of a problem, with 10s frustrated over their kit vs the content and 25s in-depth analysis of "L2P noobs"...again.


I think 25m is hurting 10m resto a lot. We needed a complete overhaul of our spells so 10/25 could have more parity. I'm worried that 25m shaman are going to be way too good and 10m will get nerfed over it. SLT, HR, MTT and CH are are ridiculously good in 25m. Even the tank timer issue isn't a big deal in 25m since you have so many healers. We needed major work done to trim back some disparity but now its too late.
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90 Draenei Shaman
8385
No. You are wrong. The glyph of RT is for a spammable HoT when you need to spread heal. The TW up time is incidental to that. Glyph of Chaining is awful and makes CH a crap spell. I can't recall one time in that past when I needed to use CH and I only hit it once. When you need to use CH, you need to use it multiple times in a row. The chaining glyph prevents this.


You are somewhat correct, i wont argue. The 4 sec cd isnt great at all. But that 4 sec CD basically turns it into RT unglyphed. I cast, heal heal, cast, heal heal, cast. So it will still do spread healing if you through it into a rotation. (not ideal, but if thats what you are going for)

However, if all you are doing is dropping RT hots, you are healing wrong. What i dont understand, is shamans have never been a spread healer. Chain heal has helped somewhat, but it really is best used on melee, chaining off or onto the tank. And using the RT HoT as a heal boost.

What everyone seems to leave out of our mastery. Throwing hots completely negates our mastery, as we get more heals from lower hp. I dont think any encounter will allow a hot of ours to hover someone below 20% without the incoming damage killing them. This is also why Shamans will NEVER be spread healers.

ALSO, why would you ever just throw HoTs and not use Tidal Waves to your advantage when it is up? It makes no sense to toss more then 2 RTs in a row. This is the reason for the RT glyph, whether you like it or not.
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50 Human Priest
14170
However, if all you are doing is dropping RT hots, you are healing wrong. What i dont understand, is shamans have never been a spread healer. Chain heal has helped somewhat, but it really is best used on melee, chaining off or onto the tank. And using the RT HoT as a heal boost.


So you think shaman should have to glyph two specific glyphs just to be able to spread heal? That's just ridiculous. If I need to heal the ranged, glyphed RT is all I have if there are stack phases in the fight. If I glyph CH and there is a stack phase, I just cut my CH heals by 2/3. Shamans were THE spread healer in BC. Shaman were spread healing decently in ICC too. You don't know what you are talking about.



What everyone seems to leave out of our mastery. Throwing hots completely negates our mastery, as we get more heals from lower hp. I dont think any encounter will allow a hot of ours to hover someone below 20% without the incoming damage killing them. This is also why Shamans will NEVER be spread healers.


I agree HoTs work directly against our mastery. I realized this at the beginning of cata. This is one reason why I never went heavy mastery. I don't want shaman to be the best spread healer. I want shaman to have a baseline spread heal that is functional like every other healer has. Its about parity.

ALSO, why would you ever just throw HoTs and not use Tidal Waves to your advantage when it is up? It makes no sense to toss more then 2 RTs in a row. This is the reason for the RT glyph, whether you like it or not.


You are trying to heal in a rotation. Healing isn't like that. You should pick the best spells for the situation and use those. Using single target spells to heal multiple targets is not the best way to do it. It will result in lessing healing than blanket HoTing which is less than ideal too but its the best we have. In DS, did you CH-GWH-GWH? By your rationale, if you didn't, you were wasting TW procs. If you did do it like that, you hurt your raid because CH spam was higher HPS. For raid healing, TW mostly goes unused and its been like that from the begining of WotLK except when we had to single-target (LHW, GHW) spread heal which was awful.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
7165
OOM'd twice during the fight even though i was trying to heal with mana control in mind. Top heal was healing wave with 26%, closely followed by riptide and healing rain.
By the end of the fight i was oom for the third time, while my co healer druid never dropped below 35%... All he used was his personal Innervate, of which he put 1 on me during the fight.


Bro, as a shaman you should never go oom on H Deathwing. Tellecular currents gives us back mana after casting lightning bolt, and H Madness has a phase where he takes more dmg so you are supposed to use that time to spam lightning bolts and that brings you back to full mana.

This was before patch 5.0 though, dunno if it still works.


It does not, because of the changes to Telluric Currents. Sitting at 100k mana right now, you gain 2000 mana per LB. But after taking the cost of LB into consideration, it's roughly a ~600ish mana gain or something. (Feel free to correct me if I am wrong)
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