Rogues in Patch 5.0.4

90 Worgen Rogue
10170
Anyone else disappointed in the fact we can't generate energy fast enough or build enough combo points? What's worst is that I dueled other classes before patch 5.0.4 and I've won the duels each time, but now I can't win a single one, even at full Season 11 Cataclysmic gear. Should I go Assassination? And if so what do I give up? Combat or Subtlety?
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90 Goblin Warrior
0
And you didn't find it broken that you won every duel?
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100 Human Paladin
6175
They seem fine to me. Assignation seems easier for sub rogues that are having difficulty with the changes and some state Sub is the new PvE spec (not sure about that haven't touched my rogue in a year).

I see a lot of rogues taking Subterfuge or Shadow Focus though, SF may help you with the energy issue...

I'm a bit surprised you aren't using ShadowStep, Roag mobility is their biggest issue right now and the main way to deal with it is SS. Especially with so many classes have CCs and Snares.

Did you know that for a Ret Paladin kiting roags "is the thing to do" now with Burden of Guilt keeping you at 50% movement speed, censure dots and our 4 range attacks...
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90 Undead Rogue
10480
Shadow Focus is a necessity for dueling as mutilate. Subterfuge may be better in arena, but both talents will be used and interchanged depending on the comp you are facing.

Rogues have many problems right now. As subtlety, if you don't kill your opponent in a dance, you're probably going to lose. Rogue damage is okay, but everything else is very lack luster. No sustained damage as subtlety, too much ramp up for mutilate. Even with elusiveness and proper upkeep of feint, rogues are still the squishiest class in the game - but many people are going to argue this, simply because they're probably not that good at their class.

I'm a multiglad 2900 rogue so you can take my two cents for what it's worth, but these are problems and things that need to be addressed with rogues right now from a 3v3 arena perspective - and keep in mind, this is an arena perspective, not a dueling perspective.

Rogues were never meant to be played as a tunnel vision, train-you-into-the-dirt-until-you-die class like warriors. They have, prior to season 11, required some sort of setup (unless playing melee cleave) to score kills. The rogue's trade mark is their high controlling capabilities, mobility, and the opportunity to burst opponents effectively with proper timing of cooldowns and crowd control.

Blizzard eliminated practically all of a rogue's control.

Most classes have a spammable snare, some even at range, and some AOE. Rogues had shiv. But they wanted to make shiv a fancy ability, empowering our non-lethal poisons and adding a 10 second cooldown, or 8 second if glyphed. Guess what? Rogues are the squishiest class in the game and NEED a way to stick onto people for lock down, because their damage is pathetic outside of dance or vendetta. One of the most damaging things they did to rogues was add a cooldown on shiv. Personally I couldn't give a single !@#$ as to the new shiv ability. It should be back to no cooldown and spammable just like every other class. DK and warrior have more CC immunity than rogues and they have spammable snares, even PHYSICAL snares that you can't get out of if you wanted to, and their damage is much much higher than rogue damage right now. Balanced, right?
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90 Undead Rogue
10480
Another trademark of the rogue is it's mobility, but that got destroyed. We're forced to choose between shadow dance, prep and burst of speed. Problem is, with 8sec defensive dispels in arena, we NEEEEEEEED shadowstep vs practically every comp - unfortunately, with the ridiculous strengths of other classes at the moment, we also need preparation or we'll just fall over if tunneled. Even with feint spam, yes.

I won't write a huge rant here about how immoral it is to give blind a 3min cd and able to be dodge/parried while warrior fear is now a 1min CD. We now have the worst CC ability in the game by far. Even repentance is better.

So, 8sec defensive dispel CD, casters having many many more forms of instant CC and higher burst capability than before, while rogue damage is subpar outside of cooldowns (and, easily healed through in arena unless you have a partner to control people like a mage or warlock - but rogue/lock will not work on this current patch.) make us a pretty !@#$ty class at the moment. Anything we can do another class can just do better.

We can be annoying with our cooldowns like always, yes, but it will have no significant effect on anything.

Shiv needs to be reverted to it's former self, shadowstep should be a baseline ability for sub rogues and you're stupid if you argue otherwise. Anyone who wants to argue that burst of speed fixes our mobility issue, you are an idiot. 60 energy (more than half our energy bar) for a 4sec duration on either a sprint or a freedom pending on how we are controlled, is not worth it - by the time we reach our opponent we have no energy to gain combo points or we're already cc'd again. It was a poorly thought out ability. Blind should be back to a 2 minute cooldown and absolutely no longer, and not be able to be dodged or parried.

They revamped talents as we all know and with that, we lost 60% increased chance to crit with ambush. in MoP, we'll have ~20% crit as sub which means even inside a shadow dance we'll probably only be tickling you because we'll do absolutely no damage. Ambush is pathetic unless it crits. You'll never see that again. So, find some way to improve sub's damage. Give us plus crit% back to ambush or buff hemo and rupture. As it is, hemo is %^-*ty damage and primarily just a combo point builder.

Oh, and as well, they nerfed crippling to 50% - we can see why that's kind of okay, but what's not okay is that vs anyone who can snare us or have a way to run faster than us (shaman - ghost wolf, or druids in general) we will NEVER use a dance effectively because it's impossible to either catch, or get behind our target to garotte and ambush. Ferals get a ton of move speed to make up for their problem with shred, but rogues were not given such benefit. Either give 70% crippling back, or increase our passive move speed by another 10% or so.

Because of the above two paragraphs, we'll be forced to play mutilate in MoP unless some serious changes are made to sub. Mutilate is boring and unrewarding, and you can do far less in terms of skill that a sub rogue could. Mutilate will literally be tunnel tunnel tunnel tunnel until something dies. It's highly demanding in the energy department however and with the amount of crowd control and lack of dispels, it won't be very effective.

Rogues need a lot of work. ... a lot.
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90 Undead Rogue
13035
tl;dr
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90 Human Warlock
15220
rogues are mere mortals again, fix
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90 Undead Rogue
10480
09/15/2012 10:56 PMPosted by Danaowns
rogues are mere mortals again, fix


Coming from someone whose class has never failed to dominate an entire arena season.

Rogues have a lot of problems. They're okay in duels because you just kill someone with cooldowns. But you'll see at 90 that it won't be the same. Sub will be completely dead and mutilate rogues will just be controlled all day.

And, they're just that. Only okay with cooldowns. Mobility/survivability/lack of sustained damage = problems for MoP.

Plus, the entire expansion is going to be season 8 all over again. Wizard, wizard, wizard, wizard, wizard, wizard. Hard life to be a caster.
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90 Human Warlock
15220
so because rogues might have to play a spec that isn't sub, they are broken? A lot of classes have been put into a spec because other simply aren't viable (you needed to be affliction this entire expansion as a warlock, warriors have needed to play arms for most of cata and every other expansion etc.). And because rogues don't have the best survivability, damage and mobility in the game they aren't good enough apparently? I think you've had it too good too long and you just need to accept that you are brought down to everyone else now.

and yes I understand casters are and will be OP, but they should just be toned down(maybe fixing this dispel system that favours wizards and spammable cc, and reworking some OP instant cc's). I kinda think your post is just huge QQ before the expansion comes out, and rogues will be good and make it work.
Edited by Danaowns on 9/17/2012 10:27 AM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
6175
WHY U NO SAY HI JAADYN, DONT MAKE ME TELL THEM ABOUT YOUR SECRET

Also Cloak of Shadows being on a 2min CD sucks balls... and I agree, making the choice between Prep & SStep is complete bullchit
Edited by Remsaa on 9/18/2012 9:54 AM PDT
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90 Undead Rogue
10480
There's no "might" to it, we /will/ have to without some significant buffs to sub. Sub is our trademark pvp spec, as affliction has always been warlocks, frost for mages, arms for warriors, unholy for deathknight (let's face it, fire mage/frost dk/fury warrior/destro locks have been 100% broken as those specs were playable in arena, and mutilate rogues were birthed in cata, forced to play super offensive and instantly gib someone, or, like Khuna showed us, turtle in stealth/pillars until dance/cloak were up just to be able to survive long enough - it promotes poor, unfun play for anyone) so the fact that we'll have to play mutilate is boring.. so tunnel vision, little kill potential without our two 3 minute cds.

No baseline cheat death, forced to choose between prep/step. The issue with shiv, blind, recup.

My gripe is rogues as a whole will be a pretty poor class to play if you take into account everything I mentioned here and in my prior posts. You can say what you want, but I've played every season since season 2, so I've been here for the best and the worst of it. It isn't so much nerfs to rogues (Although shiv/blind are QUITE unreasonable, and our poorly thought out talent trees - they're really poor) as it is the game in general. We're a pure class and thanks to the crappy mechanics they've introduced this expansion, we're going to be struggling a lot. Most melee will. DK/Warrior less so because they have a ridiculous amount of immunity bull!@#$ and their damage doesn't falter any, and they have better CC/surv cds than rogues do as well.

Fix dispels and CD/prep/step/blind/shiv issue and I'm happy. But as it is, rogues suck. There's a reason Reckful is playing his warrior after 12 seasons and other rogues are swapping to mages and priests. :p

PS: HI REMSAAAAA!! What's my secret, by the way? Besides the fact that I don't have glaives. o:
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13180
O
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90 Orc Warrior
13195
Glad you feel the pain I felt last patch.
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100 Human Paladin
6175
09/20/2012 11:00 AMPosted by Caylin
O
/point!
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
6975
Problems: Getting kited, Molested by warriors, WTB SS BACK POR FAVOR PUTOS

GOOD STUFF: NONE.

edit: SS back w/ prep**

( •_•)
( •_•)>⌐■-■
(⌐■_■
Edited by Drêadnaut on 10/7/2012 11:24 AM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
6175
Hiya Dreadnaught, i have a rogue too, I know your pain...

Was fun trading off saps/stuns with ya ;)
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There are some rogues that seem to be fairing pretty well.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/kelthuzad/Ecliptium/simple 2500

Rogues have changed so players just need to adjust / adapt. These changes aren't stopping me from lving my rogue. Just going to keep at it.
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90 Human Priest
12385
tl;dr
I see a lot of text out of Jaadyn...didn't read a word of it. My computer is starting to smell funny...smells salty...smells like tears.

Get those glaives yet?
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100 Human Paladin
6175
OH SNAP SON, DID THAT JUST HAPPEN
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