Nerf Vengeance, Buff Baseline

100 Tauren Druid
12110
09/13/2012 07:15 PMPosted by Rijdot
Tanks doing low damage is tradition, nothing more. The number of tanks with high vengeance is capped by the encounter. It won't be threatening any DPS raid slots.


Personally I like the idea of being able to set a higher bar for dps performance.

09/13/2012 08:57 PMPosted by Judgesyou
Tank is beating you in dps on a normal fight? Get better at this game.
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39 Worgen Warlock
0
It still doesn't answer this question:

Why does this matter outside of stroking the egos of DPSers?

Tanks doing low damage is tradition, nothing more. The number of tanks with high vengeance is capped by the encounter. It won't be threatening any DPS raid slots.


Again, why is it necessary to change it?
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Related:

But people, if you're trying to make a point that the "baseline" damage is too low, you should actually make that point - probably with some reference to where it actually affects 5-mans negatively. Otherwise, all you're doing is trying to counter Blizz ideas by showing that it does that thing it was going to do, and goes nowhere.
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90 Human Paladin
10165
Related:

But people, if you're trying to make a point that the "baseline" damage is too low, you should actually make that point - probably with some reference to where it actually affects 5-mans negatively. Otherwise, all you're doing is trying to counter Blizz ideas by showing that it does that thing it was going to do, and goes nowhere.
I've probably made this point a dozen times already... here it is again:

DPS Roles get the same Damage, Healing, and Survival during Solo, 5, 10, 25. It's based entirely on their gear.

Healer Roles get the same Healing, Damage, and Survival during Solo, 5, 10, 25. It's based entirely on their gear.

Tanks Roles scale based on Vengeance, so extremely low some times, extremely high others. Gear plays a part in their Survival, but much of the survival still comes from Veng, and almost all their DPS and Healing come from it.

Heres another way to look at it. Healer and DPS Roles will be consistent, based on their gear, across all these situations. Tanks will perform differently in EVERY situation, such as...

1. Solo/Questing
2. World PvP Ganked while Solo/Questing
3. 5 Man Normal
4. 5 Man Heroic
5. 10 Man Normal
6. 10 Man Heroic
7. 25 Man Normal
8. 25 Man Heroic
9. AOE Trashpulling
10. RBG Flag Carry/Powerball Carry/Node Defense

The previous version of Veng had a glaring flaw of being counter productive with Tanks objective (taking as little damage as possible) but since it had a Cap based on health, it did still scale with your gear somewhat. The new version ONLY scales with the Mobs DPS output and behavior, nothing you do gearwise significantly impacts your AP.

Also, since baseline AP is now EXTREMELY low, and directly impacts survival more than ever, and since PvP generates no Vengeance, it really hurts Flag Carriers, and Tanks who are jumped while Solo/Questing. And World PvP was designed to involve as many people as possible. Do you really want your entire tanking population to either sit it out, or run away every time?
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85 Night Elf Warrior
0
Related:

But people, if you're trying to make a point that the "baseline" damage is too low, you should actually make that point - probably with some reference to where it actually affects 5-mans negatively. Otherwise, all you're doing is trying to counter Blizz ideas by showing that it does that thing it was going to do, and goes nowhere.


I suppose that's fair. The thing for me is that I'd much rather being doing consistently 75-80% of a DPS's output than doing less than half on my own, 75% in 5m, 100% on 10m and 150% on 25m (or something along those lines).

And it's not a matter of a "balance problem" (because mechanically, it's largely impossible to have threat problems with 500% threat modifier) but more of just feeling really boring. "Oh yay, I do 1000% more damage just because" isn't anymore entertaining than doing a **** load more threat just because happens to be. "I'm in defensive stance! I'm a tank now!" anyone?

Moving into this patch both of my primary toons both lost a very substantial amount of non-vengeanced DPS (20% give or take). I can live with it, but that doesn't make it any less crappy to have lost that output.

"Well then go DPS."

I've yet to meet a single DPS spec that has ever been all that entertaining. Tanks, even in dps gear, are infinitely more entertaining to play, no matter what they happen to be doing. I like my tanks and I prefer staying as one for as much as possible. I'm tanking largely all the time now, though the lack of any real vengeance being built outside of dungeons and raids makes that frustrating at times against a moderately geared mage.
Edited by Feandel on 9/14/2012 4:22 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Heres another way to look at it. Healer and DPS Roles will be consistent, based on their gear, across all these situations


No they won't. Unless you're fighting raid bosses in all of that content. Damage dealers fluctuate wildly between content (particularly periodic damage based classes) and healers vary even more drastically.

The previous version of Veng had a glaring flaw of being counter productive with Tanks objective (taking as little damage as possible) but since it had a Cap based on health, it did still scale with your gear somewhat. The new version ONLY scales with the Mobs DPS output and behavior, nothing you do gearwise significantly impacts your AP.


The point of the stamina modifier in the old version of Vengeance was to mimic content scaling - on the logic that in T16, we'll have more health than we will in T14 so even though we're basically Vengeance capped the entire way, we'd have more AP as a result.

Removing the Stamina modifier simply took out the middle man. In T14, we will have X AP and in T16, we will have Y (>X) AP.

The thing for me is that I'd much rather being doing consistently 75-80% of a DPS's output than doing less than half on my own, 75% in 5m, 100% on 10m and 150% on 25m (or something along those lines).


But that's not where we're at. If you're saying that you're doing less than half on your own, your cap is still around the 75-80% mark in 25-man, and the variation isn't that much. They feel that this is fine in terms of variation, and if you think it isn't, what is the threshold that is acceptable?

Remember, this variation is completely intended. They feel that tank DPS is more of a factor in 10-man, and they want Tank DPS in 25-man to "feel" just as important to the people who weren't pushing limits. So suggesting that this variation be removed is wasting your time/text.

We can beat DPS as a rule on completely gimmicky fights like Baleroc or Alysrazor or Madness that were never intended for new Vengeance mechanics, and in Madness' case involves playing fast and loose with the new Vengeance mechanics.
Edited by Slashlove on 9/14/2012 4:59 PM PDT
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85 Human Warrior
11430
Tanks Roles scale based on Vengeance, so extremely low some times, extremely high others. Gear plays a part in their Survival, but much of the survival still comes from Veng, and almost all their DPS and Healing come from it.

Heres another way to look at it. Healer and DPS Roles will be consistent, based on their gear, across all these situations. Tanks will perform differently in EVERY situation, such as...


But in most of the situations you're citing tanks ALREADY perform very differently. No Vengeance in PvP making tanks hit like a wet noodle is not a new thing. Much lower Vengeance in 5-mans than in raids is not a new thing. Hell, there's even significant difference in tank numbers between 10s and 25s (especially if you're willing to look at normal 10s and heroic 25s, and apparently you are) on a lot of encounters.

That's what I don't understand about these complaints. Tanks performing very differently in different situations was a fact of life in 4.3. The magnitude of the differences is bigger but it's not clear to me why it will suddenly be a problem now when it wasn't before. What magical line was crossed that this is now an issue?

The one point that *is* probably valid is Ahanss's point from another thread: that the game can now potentially reward you for taking big spikes of damage you're really supposed to avoid. But as Ridjot says over there, that's just an encounter design constraint for Blizzard, and not even a particularly onerous one, so I'm not too worried on that front.
Edited by Ahti on 9/14/2012 5:22 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
8390


I've probably made this point a dozen times already... here it is again:

DPS Roles get the same Damage, Healing, and Survival during Solo, 5, 10, 25. It's based entirely on their gear.

Healer Roles get the same Healing, Damage, and Survival during Solo, 5, 10, 25. It's based entirely on their gear.


You keep making this point, and you keep being wrong.

Are you saying the 50k dps I do on the first boss in hour of twilight means I'm going ot do 50k on every fight as a dps?

Or when I do 45k hps on ultrax lfr, that I will match those numbers on everything?
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90 Draenei Priest
7550
You keep making this point, and you keep being wrong.

Are you saying the 50k dps I do on the first boss in hour of twilight means I'm going ot do 50k on every fight as a dps?

Or when I do 45k hps on ultrax lfr, that I will match those numbers on everything?


Your dps changes between fights because of things like up-time, movement, cooldown usage, and boss mechanics. Your actual character power does not change at all.

Tanks, on the other hand, may do more (or less) damage from one fight to the other solely because the boss hits harder (or softer).
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Tanks, on the other hand, may do more (or less) damage from one fight to the other solely because the boss hits harder (or softer).


Boss damage IS a mechanic
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100 Tauren Druid
12110
Your dps changes between fights because of things like up-time, movement, cooldown usage, and boss mechanics. Your actual character power does not change at all.

Tanks, on the other hand, may do more (or less) damage from one fight to the other solely because the boss hits harder (or softer).


Both statements are true. Why is this a problem?

Or put another way, so what?

If you're a tank that doesn't care about your dps and only cares about control and mitigation you can still do that. Just ignore your dps meter and be happy. Why !@#$% about something you don't care about?

If you're a tank that enjoys being able to do great dps while tanking, you can occasionally do that too.

This has only a nominal effect on actual gameplay. Why all the fuss?
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39 Worgen Warlock
0
09/15/2012 12:43 AMPosted by Oiysters
This has only a nominal effect on actual gameplay. Why all the fuss?


Because DPSers don't like it when 1, maybe 2 tanks are doing more than them on the meters.

WORLD ENDING ETC.

Really, that's the bottom line.
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90 Human Paladin
10165
You keep making this point, and you keep being wrong.

Are you saying the 50k dps I do on the first boss in hour of twilight means I'm going ot do 50k on every fight as a dps?

Or when I do 45k hps on ultrax lfr, that I will match those numbers on everything?
It's not wrong if you think about it, try to consider all the variables and view the outcome from a broader perspective, and not just the recount "DPS" number at the end of the fight.

Perhaps a better way to phrase it, would be "AP and SP for Healers and DPS scale with gear"

Of course there are going to be raid buffs that have a predictable effect, an extra 10% attack power and 5% primary stat is the same as gaining that through better gear. All that changes is the source. Trinket Procs, Popping Cooldowns, all come into play.

And OF COURSE the DPS will vary per fight, due to fight mechanics. "Hide during Black Blood on Morchok" versus "BURST the tendon on spine!" The fact that you keep going back to this leads me to believe you're looking at this too narrowly.

But despite the variable mechanics, their AP/SP values remain fairly static. Any trinkets, procs, and mechanic phases are variables that will modify their stable base AP/SP.

Tanks do not have a stable AP/SP

It's another variable and can be viewed as a fight mechanic, sure, but it's greatly different in the way the rest of the fight mechanic variables function. Rather than modify an existing stable AP/SP as a cooldown (+20% DPS during wingz!) or as a fight mechanic (x2 DPS during Hagaras stunned phase) this alters the very base AP/SP that everything else is based upon.

Previously with the Cap, you could assume max vengeance pretty much 100% of the time, which would scale with Health pool IE gear and buffs, and result in a stable AP/SP value, with the occasional oddity. The oddities were too few and far between to really be problematic.

Look at it this way
DPS Role: 10,000 AP, +10% buffs, +25% cooldowns, +/- x% fight mechanics
Healer Role: 10,000 SP, +10% buffs, +25% cooldowns, +/- x% fight mechanics

Tank Role: Extremely variable Vengeance based AP/SP, +10% buffs, +25% cooldowns, +/- x% fight mechanics
Edited by Dandaman on 9/15/2012 8:16 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
10165
09/14/2012 04:48 PMPosted by Slashlove
The point of the stamina modifier in the old version of Vengeance was to mimic content scaling - on the logic that in T16, we'll have more health than we will in T14 so even though we're basically Vengeance capped the entire way, we'd have more AP as a result.
That sort of vengeance clearly scales with GEAR (like Healers and DPS do), not content.

More STM -> More Health -> More Vengeance AP

Now its: Incoming Damage before Gear is applied -> More Vengeance AP

The first clearly scales by gear regardless of content, while the second clearly scales by content regardless of gear.
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90 Human Paladin
8390
09/15/2012 08:16 AMPosted by Dandaman
Perhaps a better way to phrase it, would be "AP and SP for Healers and DPS scale with gear"


Tank AP and SP scale with gear too.

09/15/2012 08:16 AMPosted by Dandaman
But despite the variable mechanics, their AP/SP values remain fairly static. Any trinkets, procs, and mechanic phases are variables that will modify their stable base AP/SP.


So that's what you're whining about? Your AP won't stay the same? Even though anyone who has healed knows their hps scales wildly between content levels, number of healers, and fight mechanics.

This is such a pointless complaint, stop using Impale and Baleroc for your examples.
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85 Human Warrior
11430
09/15/2012 08:16 AMPosted by Dandaman
Previously with the Cap, you could assume max vengeance pretty much 100% of the time, which would scale with Health pool IE gear and buffs, and result in a stable AP/SP value, with the occasional oddity.


But you really couldn't. Here's your list from an earlier post:

1. Solo/Questing
2. World PvP Ganked while Solo/Questing
3. 5 Man Normal
4. 5 Man Heroic
5. 10 Man Normal
6. 10 Man Heroic
7. 25 Man Normal
8. 25 Man Heroic
9. AOE Trashpulling
10. RBG Flag Carry/Powerball Carry/Node Defense


1. Not max Vengeance.
2. Not max Vengeance.
3. Not max Vengeance.
4. Not max Vengeance.
5. Max Vengeance (depending on the fight).
6. Max Vengeance
7. Max Vengeance.
8. Max Vengeance.
9. Max Vengeance.
10. Not max Vengeance.

That list is split 50/50, and a lot of those "max Vengeance" entries could easily be reworded as "Max Vengeance 50% of the time" or "Max Vengeance 80% of the time." Even in heroic 25-man fights you aren't always sitting at 100% Max Vengeance.

Tanks have always had extraordinarily variable DPS. Again: The spread is certainly wider now that they've removed the Vengeance cap, but you have to do more to show me why having a spread itself is a problem, because we've had a spread for a while now.
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100 Tauren Druid
14520
Considering we're talking about post-4.3 vengeance, where it never started to decay unless you went 5+ seconds without taking any damage (either by dodging it all or just never being attacked, absorbs counted).
You could assume max vengeance on almost anything. It was a rare sight soloing wrath raids and not having max vengeance for a good portion of encounters. In 5 mans? definitely maxed out. ANY cata raid? maxed out on the first, MAYBE second hit.
Edited by Ahanss on 9/15/2012 10:49 AM PDT
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85 Human Warrior
11430
Considering we're talking about post-4.3 vengeance, where it never started to decay unless you went 5+ seconds without taking any damage (either by dodging it all or just never being attacked, absorbs counted).
You could assume max vengeance on almost anything. It was a rare sight soloing wrath raids and not having max vengeance for a good portion of encounters. In 5 mans? definitely maxed out. ANY cata raid? maxed out on the first, MAYBE second hit.


I was certainly not always maxed out in 5-mans in 4.3. Otherwise I listed everything else you mentioned at "max Vengeance". I'd disagree that I was max Vengeance consistently in some of the raid environments you're talking about (10-man normal mode phase 1 gunship or plate #1 spine tanking, for example, definitely didn't result in max Vengeance in 4.3, for example) but it's really splitting hairs and beside the point given the claims he's making.

My point is that there has always been a big spread. If you like, cut out all the raids and just look at "Solo/World Questing" and "RBG Flag Carry" vs. heroic raids - two examples he lists where you're either at zero Vengeance or very close to it. My point is that you ALREADY have a massive disparity in the game between different AP values from Vengeance in different settings.
Edited by Ahti on 9/15/2012 11:09 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
14020
When there's such a *wide* variation that I can do more DPS soloing as Holy than as Prot, or when I get scolded for not breaking 10k DPS on Alizabel in BH as the tank, it gets a bit annoying. ;) I think that making the defenses scale more with AP or just with damage taken is good, but I agree that the "floor" should be a bit higher. I'm on Beta as well, and have tanked raids (LFR, normal, and heroic, both 10 and 25), dungeons, and done soloing for the new MOP content. I agree that some of the current fights make the difference even more dramatic. However, the new vengeance scaling *is* making tank swaps harder, making tanks much more vulnerable to damage right after a tank swap or "waiting for adds" or otherwise low damage phase, and making dailies a lot slower and more annoying. I'm Prot/Holy, I don't want to have to swap to ret every day for my dailies and then swap back again.
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90 Human Paladin
10165
09/15/2012 09:13 AMPosted by Judgesyou
Perhaps a better way to phrase it, would be "AP and SP for Healers and DPS scale with gear"


Tank AP and SP scale with gear too.

Yes, but so minimally compared to Vengeance as to be inconsequential.

09/15/2012 08:16 AMPosted by Dandaman
But despite the variable mechanics, their AP/SP values remain fairly static. Any trinkets, procs, and mechanic phases are variables that will modify their stable base AP/SP.


So that's what you're whining about? Your AP won't stay the same? Even though anyone who has healed knows their hps scales wildly between content levels, number of healers, and fight mechanics.

This is such a pointless complaint, stop using Impale and Baleroc for your examples.

So anyone who disagrees with your point of view is a Whiner? I also don't recall mentioning Impale, or Baleroc.

Any yes, Heals Per Sec vary based on mechanics. But SPELLPOWER does not. Re-read this handy chart


DPS Role: 10,000 AP, +10% buffs, +25% cooldowns, +/- x% fight mechanics
Healer Role: 10,000 SP, +10% buffs, +25% cooldowns, +/- x% fight mechanics
Tank Role: Extremely variable Vengeance based AP/SP, +10% buffs, +25% cooldowns, +/- x% fight mechanics
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