Please make Velen explode

Why is it we resort to killing off characters when they 'don't get good lore happening to them?'

I mean, honestly, Velen hasn't had any lore, aside from an appearance in 4.0, and parts in The Shattering and Wolfheart. What he has gotten hasn't been bad.

Why not just give him and the draenei more love?


I think the thing is, Velen's pretty past his prime. The most he can be is a wise advisor of some sort.

I honestly felt a bit the same way about Genn, they should have made Liam the new king of Gilneas and had Genn die so we'd get a more interesting Liam. They had no problems killing off Cairne, but I think other aged characters should follow suit because their story is pretty much done.

This also seems like the only time Drailen's really suggested offing a character though, so you might be exaggerating a tad.


And so we enter the world of The Giver

As soon as people become too old or infirm to be of use in war, we off them, regardless of how nice or developed they are
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I find it odd that some people think a character who hasn't been getting enough story exposure cannot possibly get story exposure in the future and needs to be killed off for the story to progress.

Killing off Velen solves nothing if all it means is that his successor will have the same problem. Why not usher in the Legion expansion by Velen having a prophecy on the subject, and then he can use his deep knowledge of the Burning Legion to help defend Azeroth against it?

If Velen is to die, then let it be after he's had his time in the spotlight. After he figures out how to beat the Burning Legion, at least here on Azeroth, and the Legion comes for him in hopes of stopping him. Which not only do they fail to do even if they kill him, but they might of actually helped along their own defeat.

It's the same problem Lor'themar has really. All too often I have seen people suggest replacing him with some other character because he hasn't gotten enough exposure in the story. Nevermind the fact that the character such people want to replace him with often has even less lore exposure, and in some cases may not even exist (ie a lost heir to the Sunstrider dynasty).
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85 Night Elf Druid
1890
Why is it we resort to killing off characters when they 'don't get good lore happening to them?'

I mean, honestly, Velen hasn't had any lore, aside from an appearance in 4.0, and parts in The Shattering and Wolfheart. What he has gotten hasn't been bad.

Why not just give him and the draenei more love?


They could. I'm just arguing that this would be the more interesting route.

I don't think there's anything really interesting they can do with Velen as a character. He's old, set in his ways, and about the only good thing he can do left is have a showdown with Kil'Jaedan.

Which I think would be much more poignant if Kil'Jaedan managed to kill Velen before that showdown even happened, showing just how ruthless the Burning Legion really is.



09/19/2012 07:43 PMPosted by Gabath
Velen would see a future of him having a heart attack and he'll plan accordingly.


Which, with his wisdom, might simply be to do nothing, and let events play out as they are because he thinks it is what is necessary for the greater good.



It's been awhile since I've read the short story but I think they have a Council that is second in command to Velen. Likely if he died they'll take over command.


I think Blizzard would find a way to go around that, or at least centralize one of the Draenei on the council, because then the ratio of faction leaders would be out of balance.



He'll likely have a spotlight role, along with the Draenei, in the next Legion themed expansion. It's hard to write for someone who can see the future.


Kind of like how he had a "spot light" role in TBC, where he did nothing outside of the Draenei starting area until the very end of the expansion?



He supports his people by guiding them down the right path as well as the Alliance by supporting them with their causes. The Vindicators are the ones who do the fighting. Tyrande. Plus we've seen what happens when we get a warrior leader who's a fighter in Garrosh and Varian. Sometimes it's good sometimes it's not.


All leaders support their people that way. Except Velen's usual answer to conflict is to avoid it. It's a very problematic mentality to have when Blizzard wants to encourage more fighting and war.

Also, Tyrande is barely a healer. She wasn't depicted as one at all in WCIII. She's very ferocious and a fighter at heart. That she can heal as a priestess of Elune is more or less gameplay mechanics because priests have to be able to heal.
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85 Night Elf Druid
1890
No, no, no and no, I want Velen to be at the forefront of the battle when the Legion returns, to me your whole argument is preposterous. Velen needs to be apart of that confrontation with Kil'jaeden. The whole story of the hatred Kil'jaeden has for Velen is leading up to that moment, and that is when we should see Velen's actual power, which thus far we haven't seen.
To me, the assault against the Legion in the future is when we would see his true might.


You could also make the arguments that the Orcs deserve a stab at Kil'jaedan for what he did to them. You could also say the Night Elves deserve a shot at him for what he convinced Illidan to do. The Blood Elves, too, since he pressed them into service as well. And, you know, the Sunwell.

Too many people have a grudge against Kil'Jaedan. Velen is not special in this regard. And since he's not a fighter per say, he likely won't have much to do with the final fight against Kil'Jaedan.
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85 Night Elf Druid
1890
09/20/2012 05:53 AMPosted by Falrinn
Killing off Velen solves nothing if all it means is that his successor will have the same problem.


You mean his successor would be a 25,000 year old pacifist and one-note character who can see the future, is smarter and wiser than all the other faction leaders, and is a direct link between the Draenei and the gods they worship?



09/20/2012 05:53 AMPosted by Falrinn
Why not usher in the Legion expansion by Velen having a prophecy on the subject, and then he can use his deep knowledge of the Burning Legion to help defend Azeroth against it?


His "deep knowledge" has been the meat he has educated his people with. All the Draenei are educated on how to fight the Legion.

Velen could definitely be there when the Legion comes. I just think it would be more poignant if he died when they did.



It's the same problem Lor'themar has really. All too often I have seen people suggest replacing him with some other character because he hasn't gotten enough exposure in the story. Nevermind the fact that the character such people want to replace him with often has even less lore exposure, and in some cases may not even exist (ie a lost heir to the Sunstrider dynasty).


That's a different issue. People want another leader there because Kael'thas was such a great leader for the Blood Elves, and then he went crazy and died....which was a bit of a departure from his character in WCIII, so a lot of people were pretty pissed off.

Theron is a Knaak character anyways, right? It's only natural people expect him to be killed off while saving a bunch of blood elf babies just before a giant explosion.
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88 Blood Elf Paladin
7585
Valen has potential to be super freaking awesome. Blizzard just doesn't give the Draenei any justice.

I can't, for the life of me, figure out why a whole race FULL of Paladins wasn't more active in WotLK.

Then again Tirion is human and humans are teh winz.
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No, no, no and no, I want Velen to be at the forefront of the battle when the Legion returns, to me your whole argument is preposterous. Velen needs to be apart of that confrontation with Kil'jaeden. The whole story of the hatred Kil'jaeden has for Velen is leading up to that moment, and that is when we should see Velen's actual power, which thus far we haven't seen.
To me, the assault against the Legion in the future is when we would see his true might.


You could also make the arguments that the Orcs deserve a stab at Kil'jaedan for what he did to them. You could also say the Night Elves deserve a shot at him for what he convinced Illidan to do. The Blood Elves, too, since he pressed them into service as well. And, you know, the Sunwell.

Too many people have a grudge against Kil'Jaedan. Velen is not special in this regard. And since he's not a fighter per say, he likely won't have much to do with the final fight against Kil'Jaedan.

Yes he absolutely should, if just for the fact that Velen and Kil'jaeden were like brothers to each other on Argus. It was Velen for whom Kil'jaeden wanted to single mindedly seek out to destroy after he was corrupted. Of course all the races of Azeroth want to see the end of Kil'jaeden, but the only person who was personally involved with him is Velen.
Velen should have everything to do with the battle against Kil'jaeden should he return to Azeroth.
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90 Human Warrior
13605
Let's be honest here. If he died, the story would NOT become more interesting for Draenei. There would be no long lasting effects or repercussions. He would be replaced with Ishanah or random Draenei priest #127892459-B that we've never heard of and we would go back to being ignored.

What could happen from is death is not what will happen, and you know it.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
15325
Boo! Did it work?


*Grabs heart*

YES....y-yess.......

*Passes out*

Seriously though. I do not want to see him die. If only for the fact that he has not done anything!!! (Lately of course) I want to see him break out some bad !@#$ holy magics against the horde and THEN die....MAYBE.
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88 Blood Elf Paladin
7585
Well I've recently gotten back into starcraft if you guys havent noticed lol.

I honestly think that introducing a "good guy" Shadow based Eredar sect in the expansion after next would be awesome. Then turn Valen into a Aldaris type from Starcraft Brood War.

Aldaris' revolt ended in failure. Although he used illusions to mask his location the Judicator was eventually captured. In lieu of execution, Artanis and Zeratul offered to accept his surrender and a renewed pledge of cooperation However Aldaris refused to cooperate with those he believed were being manipulated by Infested Kerrigan. Aldaris began to explain that the Matriarch's "alliance" with Kerrigan was something far more sinister but before he could finish he was interrupted and killed by the Queen of Blades and her minions. For this interference the temporary alliance between Kerrigan and the protoss was broken but the damage was done; Aldaris took his knowledge to the grave.

http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Zeratul
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Aldaris
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Artanis


Or like Tassadar if blizzard wants to paint him as a hero instead of a "jerk bent in his ways even though he was right".

hese sacrifices would not be in vain. To ensure victory Tassadar ordered Gantrithor to collide with the Overmind while he channeled the power of the Khala and Void through the ship itself. The resulting coruscating energies destroyed his body and the Gantrithor, and the unleashed power destroyed the Overmind itself.[27][26]
Though the Overmind had been destroyed, saving creation from assimilated protoss, it was a pyrrhic victory for Aiur. The protoss homeworld lay in ruins and the remainder of the zerg blindly rampaged across its surface.[28][29]

http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Tassadar
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Let's be honest here. If he died, the story would NOT become more interesting for Draenei. There would be no long lasting effects or repercussions. He would be replaced with Ishanah or random Draenei priest #127892459-B that we've never heard of and we would go back to being ignored.

What could happen from is death is not what will happen, and you know it.


Agreed, although I'm not quite so pessimistic in the long run.

The solution is to get the Draenei to do something. Replacing the racial leader is really independent of this.

If the next expansion is Legion-themed as some indications point to, this would be a perfect time for the Draenei to play a role and there is no reason Velen has to die. If Velen isn't a hands on enough character, then we just need to have a prominent Draenei general instead, of which there are several possibilities.

Short term I think the Draenei will stick to doing general Alliance stuff (and with the exception of the Night Elves that's the case for all Alliance races so far). One of the SI:7 agents in Pandaria is a Draenei, so it's not like Blizzard has forgotten the races exists. As it stands there simply isn't all that much faction-specific content in MoP, so we'll have to wait until patch 5.1 before we can even make a preliminary judgement.
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88 Worgen Warrior
4730
09/20/2012 06:34 AMPosted by Drailen
Also, Tyrande is barely a healer. She wasn't depicted as one at all in WCIII. She's very ferocious and a fighter at heart. That she can heal as a priestess of Elune is more or less gameplay mechanics because priests have to be able to heal.


Drailen, I enjoy your posts, your young, witty, and introspective. However, your penchant for bringing up Warcrafts 1-3 drives me a little crazy. I have no problem in giving these games the respect they are do, but this is WOW. Granted, its based loosely on the first three games, but they have added so much, and retconned even more than they added.

I guess what I am trying to say is, we should be trying to leave Warcraft in the past. Its a foundation and nothing more. The only comparisons you can make between the two are pretty general ones at best. Wow has moved in a different direction story wise. Is it better that way? I honestly don't know and won't even try to answer it here.

Now, back on topic. If we are to kill off Velen, then it has to have meaning. Just having him croak of a heart attack, or assassination would be sort of anti climatic for fans of his in particular, and alliance fans in general. Have him go out in a grand way that is still represetative of how he viewed life and his place in it.
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87 Tauren Hunter
13965
Kill Varian, then you can kill Velen.
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85 Night Elf Druid
1890
09/20/2012 09:42 AMPosted by Sothe
Seriously though. I do not want to see him die. If only for the fact that he has not done anything!!! (Lately of course) I want to see him break out some bad !@#$ holy magics against the horde and THEN die....MAYBE.


Well, dying is doing something. Something meaningful.



Drailen, I enjoy your posts, your young, witty, and introspective. However, your penchant for bringing up Warcrafts 1-3 drives me a little crazy. I have no problem in giving these games the respect they are do, but this is WOW. Granted, its based loosely on the first three games, but they have added so much, and retconned even more than they added.

I guess what I am trying to say is, we should be trying to leave Warcraft in the past. Its a foundation and nothing more. The only comparisons you can make between the two are pretty general ones at best. Wow has moved in a different direction story wise. Is it better that way? I honestly don't know and won't even try to answer it here.


That's pretty hard to do when Blizzard is still using the three first games as a template moving forward.

Didn't the MoP cinematic remind you of anything? Like say...the WCII:Tides of Darkness box art...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e3/Warcraft-2-Tides-Of-Darkness-Pc.jpg/250px-Warcraft-2-Tides-Of-Darkness-Pc.jpg

WoW has only moved past WCIII in the sense that Metzen was glad after WoTLK that WCIII's story arcs(Illidan and Arthas) were finally wrapped up and they could move WoW forward.

And no matter how much the game and its thematic changes, Blizzard still keeps trying to go back to the earlier games to use them as templates. No matter what happens, Metzen particularly seems to strive to keep World of Warcraft as a love song towards the main franchise....thematically.



09/20/2012 10:28 AMPosted by Sturmgore
Now, back on topic. If we are to kill off Velen, then it has to have meaning. Just having him croak of a heart attack, or assassination would be sort of anti climatic for fans of his in particular, and alliance fans in general. Have him go out in a grand way that is still represetative of how he viewed life and his place in it.


That would be great. I just said heart attack because it was funny.

"So, how did the guy who could see the future die?"
"Apparently he didn't see his heart exploding in his chest"
"Oh"



09/20/2012 10:36 AMPosted by Protecter
Kill Varian, then you can kill Velen.


I wouldn't mind that. I don't think it would really add anything to the story though. Varian is one of the most active racial leaders in the game, and he doesn't suffer from any "over power" issues in regards to seeing the future, or manipulating time/space with his mind, or "saving the soul of a nation", or being an ageless prophet with the sole goal of eradicating the primary evils of the universe.
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90 Human Warrior
13605
09/20/2012 10:36 AMPosted by Protecter
Kill Varian, then you can kill Velen.


Scared Varian is going to raid your city, AND save your babies?
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90 Dwarf Warrior
14765
Well, dying is doing something. Something meaningful.


Magni's "death" was far from meaningful, and shows exactly how killing a faction leader does not necessarily move the story forward. The Council of Three Hammers has done nothing.

09/19/2012 07:16 PMPosted by Drailen
1) It would set them off course
Like you say later, all the Draenei are doing is waiting for the Army of the Light. They have no course, and this wouldn't give them one.

09/19/2012 07:16 PMPosted by Drailen
2) It would start some inner-conflict with the race.
I really doubt it. The short-story is not the game, Draenei don't really do inner-conflict. At most we'd get a book or a comic out of it, but it won't help the game. If you're talking about the expanded universe, go to SoL or something, not the WoW forums.

3) Who leads?.
What important Draenei exists in the game besides Velen? Nobondu. That's it, so... him, I guess. Maraad's really only done things in the expanded universe.

09/19/2012 07:16 PMPosted by Drailen
4) It could usher in the next Legion expansion in a meaningful way
At which point we know that the Legion is next, I'll agree with you on this point.

09/19/2012 07:16 PMPosted by Drailen
5) Velen has no place in the current spectrum of character development
If you're talking about Mary Suedom, as much as I hate citing from outside the game, he's shown to have some significant flaws in the short story. If you're talking about how much development he's able to receive, then I would like to welcome you to the Alliance, cause you clearly haven't been here before.

Malfurion and Tyrande are considered *perfect* (despite the attitudes of many posters here), Genn Graymane straight up doesn't have a personality, Mekkatorque is the leader of a joke race so don't expect serious development of him, The Council of Three Hammers had a billion opportunities to do things in Cataclysm but did nothing (seriously, you'd think Moira would be slightly concerned about Ragnaros, the enslaver of the Dark Iron's souls, but she never seemed interested in the Hyjal conflict), which leaves Varian, who's promised to get some in-game development but has sat in his throne room for all of Cataclysm and continues to do so in 5.0. So, uh, any replacement would likely have the same issues.

09/19/2012 07:16 PMPosted by Drailen
6) He is the only racial leader who is specifically a healer


NO IMPORTANT DRAENEI PALADINS UNTIL THERE IS AN IMPORTANT, ALLIANCE ALIGNED, AND LIVING HUMAN PALADIN.

Seriously, Sunwalker what's-his-face makes me angry that he's shaping up to be the most important paladin the playerbase runs into, behind Tirion. Paladins used to be the iconic Alliance class, and they're all neutral or horde now.
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88 Blood Elf Paladin
7585
09/20/2012 11:07 AMPosted by Quard
NO IMPORTANT DRAENEI PALADINS UNTIL THERE IS AN IMPORTANT, ALLIANCE ALIGNED, AND LIVING HUMAN PALADIN.


Right, because a race dedicated to The Light and living with beings from the Light of Creation, shouldn't have the best/most well versed Paladins. If ANY race should have a the best palain/priest it should be Draenei.
Edited by Desidarius on 9/20/2012 11:20 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
5780
09/20/2012 11:07 AMPosted by Quard
Seriously, Sunwalker what's-his-face makes me angry that he's shaping up to be the most important paladin the playerbase runs into, behind Tirion. Paladins used to be the iconic Alliance class, and they're all neutral or horde now.


It's called "the future".

Roll with it.
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Dying is only meaningful if you die in a meaningful way
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62 Tauren Paladin
8080
Velen needs to step now. it's already been stated that he sees only the big picture of the Burning Legion, and not the small picture of Azeroth. Which is fine and dandy and all, if not for the fact that he's a leader of the Alliance.
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