What should happen to the Horde after MOP pt2

100 Night Elf Rogue
9325
Result: Horde victory if you just look at the numbers. Presented as an Alliance victory in the questing experience, but knowing the reality behind it makes it feel hollow.


I would walk this back actually. We don't know how many Horde advisors were lost versus how many Sentinels were lost, nor are we aware of the resources that were sunk into the conflict from each side. All I am saying is that it is bad accounting to try to put the Shatterspear into beginning retained earnings if Cataclysm is our reporting period.

In regard to Thunder Bluff, we do have to consider the effect of having Alliance forces sitting in the middle of that supply line for as long as they did too. It's not a total wash, and the Alliance did get something out of that.

Can we definitively say what? No, we don't have the numbers, but I do argue that we need to get the elements of the calculations right so that we're not artificially inflating the perceptions of gain or loss.
90 Night Elf Hunter
5360
@Pyronapter

Pretty much, yes. And this is the point that many have made in threads pushing the idea that the Alliance loses again and again.

To reiterate: Does the Alliance questing always show when they win?
Answer: No.

Does that suck?
Answer: Yes, and there are legitimate grievances about that in particular.

Does this mean that the Alliance is losing since we don't get to see the win properly represented in-game?
Answer: No.


If we do not see it that does count as a loss because it's never shown in game. About all we see in game are Alliance loses,stalemates or just being able to push back (I wouldn't call Stonard a win by any means. We left the base intact and -only- killed the soldiers.. Joanna Blueheart is a frikking idiot.)

Ashenvale ends up being a stalemate that leaves the Horde still in possession of most of it's gains. They hold Silverwing Refuge, Hellscream Watch, Splintertree and a vastly expanded Zoram'gar post. The Alliance quests just push the Horde back on Maestra's Post, Astranaar, take part of the Warson Lumbercamp and put the Mosho(?) Rampart under siege. And just when you are ready to assault Silverwing Refuge, you're shuttled off to the Stontalons.

Horde victories on the other hand are fairly prominently displayed in game. They show the Horde for the most part, steamrolling over everything.

Basically, the Alliance sees almost constant loss while the Horde one victory after another, and we know that that's not going to change. Unless they remake the world, any and all Alliance players are going to see the terrible Alliance story for years. It's really hard to get enthusiastic for your side in a game when you never see any victories in game. Blizzard has stated they aren't going to redo the world anytime soon (if ever) so that means there's a lot of Alliance player base frustration at Blizzard.
100 Undead Rogue
8585


Also, Ashenvale IS NOT RESET. Wolfheart happens BEFORE the cata quests, and after the Cata quests the Horde still has significant gains there over pre-cata.

And please show me where Orgrimmar is under attack by the night elves, give me links to wowpedia articles or something, because I genuinely do not know where this is happening and can't find information on it.


nelf quests undo horde quests so it is reset. just not shown in game. Same as Thunderbluff.

Org beginning quests has us defending org from tree ancients attacking the wall in azshera as well as locating stealthed nelves lurking just outsdie the wall attacking horde players.
100 Night Elf Rogue
9325
Unless they remake the world, any and all Alliance players are going to see the terrible Alliance story for years.


This is the big issue. It's kind of like how the PCAOB effectively locked in the auditing standards that they blamed the Enron collapse on. I get the reasoning, but the effect is horrible.
Edited by Kyalin on 9/15/2012 12:38 PM PDT
100 Tauren Druid
9890
No, sorry. "We don't see it in-game" does not mean it's a loss... Holy hell, what kind of logic is that?

And all you're doing is reinforcing my stance.
100 Troll Hunter
13645
09/15/2012 12:21 PMPosted by Dierle
The shatterspear were never part of the Horde to begin with, they were just an easter egg, a village of dancing trolls that was inaccessible unless you bubblejumped or slow fell off Felwood.

Saying that is like saying Pandaren shouldn't have been a race because of their origins.
90 Night Elf Hunter
5360
09/15/2012 12:33 PMPosted by Jacksprat
Forgetting the shatterspear. What about number of horde forces after their defeat in ashenvale? After everything they did is nullified by alliance questing?


The Horde still holds Silvewing Refuge and Hellscream Watch as new Horde bases in addition to Splintertree, Zoram'gar, and the two Warsong camps. Where as the Alliance couldn't even get Forestsong started into a fortification. Hell, it's exactly the same as it was in BC.
90 Tauren Death Knight
11170

It's actually an interesting question (that Blizzard has no, repeat no, intention of going down). Can the orcs be redeemed? Everyone insists yes but historically, no, they can't. Blizzard has written a race that almost always does the wrong thing.


Thrall, the entire Saurfang line (Brox, Varok, and Draenosh at the Wrathgate), Eitrigg, even Grom. All of them, ultimately, have either done the right thing or have proven themselves to be squarely on the side of good. The problem, right now, is purely Garrosh and his Dark Horde refugees.

But the idea that Org is a win is equally pure and unbridled speculation. We don't know. Well, I don't, I assume you're not a Blizz employee so I assume you don't. My speculation that it could be a disaster is as completely valid as your assumption it's a victory. And you really didn't want to bring up Eisenhower because...


We must assume it is a victory for both the Alliance and the rebel Horde because anything else is going to leave both sides bitter. I'd rather play the optimist than the pessimist because, quite frankly, I don't feel like brooding for two years until the Siege drops.

Speculation, by the way. There's been a number of people arguing that the Horde should get the kill shot, not the Alliance. Vol'jin and Sylvanas tend to get mentioned. So you're as desperately speculating as I am.


Perhaps. In fact, maybe this is what keeps the war going. The Alliance captures Garrosh, but Vol'jin stabs him the back, infuriating the Alliance. Obviously there still must be tension for the PvP game to continue. However, I would be extremely surpised to see Varian not have a major hand in Garrosh's downfall. Blizzard has built that rivalry up to the extreme, and I honestly cannot see them dropping at the climax of the story.

Let me check something. Did Eisenhower get the news of Hitler's death, cheer and then pull everyone out of Germany? Did the Soviets find Hitler's body, call it a day and evacuate Berlin? (Oh, and using WWII comparisons when talking about not targeting civilians is really, really counter-productive) That would be no. Because Hitler wasn't the sole reason of WWII and killing him wasn't the ultimate fix. It took a complete rebuilding of German society from the ground up. That is so not going to happen here. So no, the Alliance is not Eisenhower-esque.


Then let's drop the analogies completely. Do you really believe that, after everything that has been said, Blizzard is just going to let the Alliance hang out to dry? All because of a supposed bias for the Horde due to one, poorly-received expansion? If you have so little faith in Blizzard, why are you even here arguing about it?
100 Night Elf Rogue
9325
No, sorry. "We don't see it in-game" does not mean it's a loss... Holy hell, what kind of logic is that?

And all you're doing is reinforcing my stance.


Perception has to be taken into account too, Bull. While in some cases, your right, it doesn't help my argument, in far more cases it harms the overall Alliance experience, and makes us look worthless. The perception needs to match the underlying facts, instead of hitting us with "you didn't clap hard enough, Tinkerbell is dead" endings.
100 Night Elf Rogue
9325
09/15/2012 12:40 PMPosted by Pyronaptor
The shatterspear were never part of the Horde to begin with, they were just an easter egg, a village of dancing trolls that was inaccessible unless you bubblejumped or slow fell off Felwood.

Saying that is like saying Pandaren shouldn't have been a race because of their origins.


Thank you for giving me another example.

It would be bad accounting to evaluate the gains and losses that we will see in MOP by stuffing the Pandaren into beginning retained earnings for that period, just as it is bad accounting to stuff the Shatterspear into beginning retained earnings for Cata.
100 Human Paladin
12865
Bull, do you dispute my numbers on the Shatterspear thing? technically it's a Horde win. They convinced a neutral group to attack the night elves on their behalf, the formerly neutral group died off with some night elf casualties, the base Horde forces remain the same.

Oh, you mean the night elves in Azshara? Yeah, I guess they were trying to attack Org, but the Horde was expanding out into what was formerly their turf, and kicks them out completely, so that's really a big Horde win there.

As for the numbers in Ashenvale, I dunno, I have no idea whether the Alliance or Horde took more casualties in the fighting in Ashenvale so far, but I can certainly say that the Horde never seems to have personnel shortages there. And please stop saying Alliance questing resets everything there, it's just not true. We never recapture silverwind refuge or several other outposts, and Silverwind was kinda a big deal.

And in terms of player perception, not seeing it in game does matter, it makes the defeats seem more prominent than the victories, it prevents us from participating in the victories because we can only read about it in a book, it just generally sucks. But the absolute data, regardless of what's seen where, still favors the Horde. not seeing our stuff in game just adds insult to injury.

Also, Kyalin, remind me never ever to embezzle from you, holy hell...
90 Night Elf Hunter
5360
No, sorry. "We don't see it in-game" does not mean it's a loss... Holy hell, what kind of logic is that?

And all you're doing is reinforcing my stance.


Unless someone reads a book or the WoWwiki, they don't know the Alliance has won anything. If they go by what's just in game, it's not a pretty picture for the Alliance.

Admittedly that has been a sore point with many people. Alliance and Horde players alike. That so much important lore is being out out in novels and not shown ingame. So a lot of information is missed if you go with just in game knowledge.
100 Undead Rogue
8585
09/15/2012 12:40 PMPosted by Kynrind
Forgetting the shatterspear. What about number of horde forces after their defeat in ashenvale? After everything they did is nullified by alliance questing?


The Horde still holds Silvewing Refuge and Hellscream Watch as new Horde bases in addition to Splintertree, Zoram'gar, and the two Warsong camps. Where as the Alliance couldn't even get Forestsong started into a fortification. Hell, it's exactly the same as it was in BC.


yet their massive force that was dedicated to ashenvale was pushed back and repelled. So, what are we counting, how many bases there are or military victories? because it seems to change arbitrarily. There's no set ruler. so data is simply shifted around willy nilly to make the alliance woe is me. meanwhile, horde data is shifted around in order to "not count".
100 Night Elf Rogue
9325
Bull, do you dispute my numbers on the Shatterspear thing? technically it's a Horde win. They convinced a neutral group to attack the night elves on their behalf, the formerly neutral group died off with some night elf casualties, the base Horde forces remain the same.


I'm not sure if Bull will, but I do. We have been given no quantitative data with which to calculate the gain or loss, only the elements.

My argument is not that the Alliance lost there, it is that we can't include the Shatterspear in beginning retained earnings. The Horde still threw advisors and resources into that conflict, and those must be weighed too.
100 Tauren Druid
9890
'perception' isn't standard for every person. At best 'perception' of a win or loss changes Inez's feelings, not the facts.

One cannot blow up astormwind, lament that it doesn't feel like a win because the park was already destroyed, and then declare it a loss.

If that's the case, then based on my perception of what it feels like to be a Horde player the Horde has lost.

Now tell me I'm wrong.
Edited by Bullcowsby on 9/15/2012 12:46 PM PDT
100 Tauren Druid
9890
No, sorry. "We don't see it in-game" does not mean it's a loss... Holy hell, what kind of logic is that?

And all you're doing is reinforcing my stance.


Unless someone reads a book or the WoWwiki, they don't know the Alliance has won anything. If they go by what's just in game, it's not a pretty picture for the Alliance


Thank you for making my point!
100 Night Elf Rogue
9325
Also, Kyalin, remind me never ever to embezzle from you, holy hell...


Good accounting is important.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBdBCTvK5zM&feature=player_detailpage#t=100s
100 Human Paladin
12865
perception is not objective, I'll give you that. But even Blizzard themselves have acknowledged that putting the important lore for one faction in books and not representing it in the game is bad design and creates a certain disconnect.
90 Night Elf Hunter
5360
yet their massive force that was dedicated to ashenvale was pushed back and repelled. So, what are we counting, how many bases there are or military victories? because it seems to change arbitrarily. There's no set ruler. so data is simply shifted around willy nilly to make the alliance woe is me. meanwhile, horde data is shifted around in order to "not count".


It was repelled somewhat. The Horde still made massive gains in Ashenvale. (do not ask me how the hell they managed to upgrade Zoram'gar Post from a cluster of huts to massive spiked stone and metal walls and a large keep in a short period of time without there being attacks and delays. Not to mention.. they built is on the sand?) They are clearly able to hold onto their positions fairly well now though.
100 Tauren Druid
9890
09/15/2012 12:49 PMPosted by Dierle
perception is not objective, I'll give you that. But even Blizzard themselves have acknowledged that putting the important lore for one faction in books and not representing it in the game is bad design and creates a certain disconnect.


Yes!!! Exactly!!!

It's what I've said multiple times now. I'm not sure why people keep arguing against me saying what I've already said. It's getting frustrating.
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