Why Bear/Guardian is no longer fun anymore

90 Tauren Druid
11045
09/19/2012 06:05 AMPosted by Anota
Now if you also cut Thrash down to 6 seconds and made Lacerate bleeds do something cool, then we might be getting somewhere.

What do you have in mind for Lacerate bleeds?


Ultimatum type proc for Maul
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100 Night Elf Druid
16665
I don't know that making Guardians play like a Prot Warrior is the answer. Granted Prot Warriors are entertaining and all, but if you want to play one than they already exist.

Though, if I'm honest, I do miss Maul a lot more than I miss Heroic Strike on my Warrior. HS seems to "fit" the Warrior setup though because of how their procs work, with Ultimatum giving it something of the old Revenge's niche. Maul, on the other hand, just feels lost - it's gone from being the cornerstone of Feral tanking (back before Mangle existed) to something that you wouldn't really miss if it were gone. And that's kinda sad.

Unfortunately I don't know how to really make it work anymore. The only reasonable idea currently floating around my head sadly depends on making it a proc (triggered from bleeds so it doesn't encroach on Mangle procs) but giving it a more classic spin and making it an "on next swing" ability. Any solution I came up with that left it with a cost brought me back to the same situation of it not getting used, and any solution where it was simply a cooldown would make it just another skill to keep on cooldown.

I've no idea what it would actually do (more damage, obviously, but what, if anything else?) but at least that would return it to our encounters - maybe not pride of place like it once had, but certainly not tucked away action bar #8 like it is now.

Who knows? Maybe giving Maul a new identity could make believers out of those who just aren't "feeling" it at the moment.
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
Unfortunately I don't know how to really make it work anymore. The only reasonable idea currently floating around my head sadly depends on making it a proc (triggered from bleeds so it doesn't encroach on Mangle procs) but giving it a more classic spin and making it an "on next swing" ability. Any solution I came up with that left it with a cost brought me back to the same situation of it not getting used, and any solution where it was simply a cooldown would make it just another skill to keep on cooldown.

I like where you're going with this.

What if it was a proc that you can use to activate to turn your next autoattack into a 3 target cleave (50 / 100 / 50) that could only occur from the proc?

Part of the original problem with HS/Maul was that you had to hit them for every autoattack. What if we brought back the concept, but made it totally optional and just a cool thing to do?
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100 Night Elf Druid
16665
Oh sweet, merciful.... on-next-attack and 3-targets? Talk about a nostalgia overload!

Honestly it's just crazy enough to work. Though what would you do with the glyph? Would it simply add yet another target to it (also nostalgic right there, from an early version of the Swipe glyph)? Re-work it to allow you to use it at a Rage cost when the proc isn't active? Possibly allow the "splash" hits to trigger Primal Fury?
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
Oh sweet, merciful.... on-next-attack and 3-targets? Talk about a nostalgia overload!

Honestly it's just crazy enough to work. Though what would you do with the glyph? Would it simply add yet another target to it (also nostalgic right there, from an early version of the Swipe glyph)? Re-work it to allow you to use it at a Rage cost when the proc isn't active? Possibly allow the "splash" hits to trigger Primal Fury?

I was thinking it would just be a brand new ability, leaving Maul as-is.
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90 Tauren Druid
14040
Blizzard messed up bears big time, imo, and here' where I feel betrayed.

1. Inability to be a druid. Druids are meant to switch forms and do multiple roles. Guardian bears do more dps than guardian cats, thereby negating the fact we even have a cat form. I could pop out to do some heals to lose all vengeance but not have a cat form to fake dps in. All they needed to do was take away bleed damage from our mastery. Bearcat was kinda op, but this to the ground nerf is ridiculous.

2. Drastic tanking ignorance that led to this "progressive" change. I have been playing wow since vanilla without dbm and such addons. This widespread use of "required" addons has turned the entire wow community into lazy players. First, the tank's priority should be watching the fight, watching positions of players, watching positions of enemies and watching health/mana bars of the other raiders. Many of these comments I read from players being "bored" while tanking is because they have become lazy raiders.

I see this all the time while raiding in lfr/ds10 with the guild. "Zomg pally so boring I'm just sitting here pushing my buttons". During this time a real tank would be communicating with the healers and such. Me: I see 2 healers are above 50% and joe shaman is below 25%. "Hey joe, u want innervate? Anyone got a hymn?" Also during this time a REAL DRUID would be shifting into cat doing fake dps, shifting out and tossing some rejuvs when needed and making sure everyone is where they should be. Instead these addons have created people that do nothing but watch their bars and the screen fills with GIANT FIREBALL COMING IN 10 SECONDS!!!! Of course you're going to be bored because you're not actually playing the game. Raiding should become 2nd nature like riding a bike. Instead when addons don't get updated, people scream and shout that stuff is to hard or make incredibly simple mistakes.

3. Over use of "math" to justify paper. I'm sick and tired of people relying 95% of the time on "math backs it up" type of justifications. Anyone can use math to prove w/e the hell they want. Solely relying on math and not remebering the humanity causes so many more problems. People enjoy math because it's "objective and reliable", except it does nothing in reality until you put it there.
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90 Tauren Druid
14040
4. The disparity of tanks and willfully ignoring this. It might come as a shock, but not all tanks are equal. Having played EVERY single tank class and raiding with them, they are extrmely different in reality than on paper. Tanks have a VERy different set a abilities which don't translate to each other. I can understand not wanting full homogenization, but not having somehwat the same stuff is tank breaking. First, resources. Tanks have roughly all different resources but they aren't even close to being equal. Dks are the leaders in having resources. They come with 6 runes that fuels nearly all abilities related to tanking except dancing rune weapon. (Mop dks are basically the same as Wrath dks but better.) Pallies have mana to fund maybe 50% of their abilities then gain holy power to fund the rest. (They take abit more buildup than dks). Warriors and Druids come with 0 resource and require ALOT of it to do single defensive mechanics. Yes they can both use things liek shield wall, but the very simple things , like barrier and savage defense (which is roughly equal to ds) aren't usable until after it's needed. Lowering the rage cost of fr and savage defense would greatly help this.

5. Personal apporach to wow. I ussually think out of the box when it comes to everything. It's not something I try to do to be special, it just comes naturally. All throughout wow I have been making choices "against the crowd". Not until a guildy finally asked me why I do the things I do, did it finally sink it with someone. (3 expansions in until someone asked me why instead of laughed) I was always doing it because it's about the entire group and not just yourself. I was not just a set it and forget it tank. No REAL DRUID should ever be a set it and forget it tank. In fact, no REAL TANK should be bored when fighting because they should be doing the things I listed above. My job, as a tank and druid, wasn't to just tank. My job was the survival of my entire team and my missing of x ability, me not communicating positions, health/mana issues, proactive situations, would all have led to the detriment of the raid.

~I'm not an eloquent person. My brain goes faster than I type so this may have come off as "wut the hell, this makes no sense". I want people to see the whole picture in everything. These changes my seem "funner" than before but what is the tradeoff? How does one learn outside of wow when you don't have an addon to tell you when something is wrong? Everything learned in wow should be applied to real life and everything in life should be applied to wow.

ps: Critical thinking is extremely critical and listening to someone else tell you how to play won't teach you a thing. Think for yourself, test things yourself and seek input AFTER you have already hit your max.
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90 Tauren Druid
14040
I do not willy nilly drop classes because of "feelings" or nerfs. I have been a bear since bc and an enhance shaman in vanilla (before it was cool). Not only is bear not fun with these DRASTIC changes, bears are woefully weaker than dks/pallies. I have a strong leaning towards dks all the time because I was forced to bring my dk for wrath. Bringing my squishy bear was such a detriment, to the raid, that I felt bad everytime I tried to bring him. Dks were SOOOO much better back then and even better now. I'm not saying nerf dks, I'm saying bring up bears and prolly warriors to the same level.

My whole thought process is using foundational supports. Changing x ability won't suddenly make druids fun again. It's all about the foundation. Blizzard is dealing with the same problem now and 'fixing" it in the exact wrong way. Blizzard is listening and trying to garner non gamers, new gamers and future gamers without relying on what made veteran gamers. Flashy graphics won't make you play wow for x years, more buttons won't make you play wow for x years. Blizz should be asking veterans why they are still playing wow after x years and they should be focusing on recreating that with new gamers. I see wow missing fundamental foundations and this is being applied slowly to each area of the game. (This is the "big picture" concept I was talking about earlier. Look beyond the simple changes.)
Edited by Droppinwrath on 9/20/2012 11:15 AM PDT
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80 Draenei Shaman
550
1. Inability to be a druid. Druids are meant to switch forms and do multiple roles. Guardian bears do more dps than guardian cats, thereby negating the fact we even have a cat form. I could pop out to do some heals to lose all vengeance but not have a cat form to fake dps in. All they needed to do was take away bleed damage from our mastery. Bearcat was kinda op, but this to the ground nerf is ridiculous.


This has been the case from Vanilla onward. You can shift forms just fine, doesn't mean you'll be as effective as a kitty DPS as guardian druid. That was the point of them separating the specs. Cuz y'know. Bearcat was unintended and absolutely ridiculously overpowered. You're not going to do that kind of DPS by jumping to cat form. Period. No other tank can pull that off, why should bears?

3. Over use of "math" to justify paper. I'm sick and tired of people relying 95% of the time on "math backs it up" type of justifications. Anyone can use math to prove w/e the hell they want. Solely relying on math and not remebering the humanity causes so many more problems. People enjoy math because it's "objective and reliable", except it does nothing in reality until you put it there.


I hate to tell you this, but this game is math. If the math backs it up and the math is differing from the results you're seeing, there's a difference and it's usually your own play.

4. The disparity of tanks and willfully ignoring this. It might come as a shock, but not all tanks are equal. Having played EVERY single tank class and raiding with them, they are extrmely different in reality than on paper. Tanks have a VERy different set a abilities which don't translate to each other. I can understand not wanting full homogenization, but not having somehwat the same stuff is tank breaking. First, resources. Tanks have roughly all different resources but they aren't even close to being equal. Dks are the leaders in having resources. They come with 6 runes that fuels nearly all abilities related to tanking except dancing rune weapon. (Mop dks are basically the same as Wrath dks but better.) Pallies have mana to fund maybe 50% of their abilities then gain holy power to fund the rest. (They take abit more buildup than dks). Warriors and Druids come with 0 resource and require ALOT of it to do single defensive mechanics. Yes they can both use things liek shield wall, but the very simple things , like barrier and savage defense (which is roughly equal to ds) aren't usable until after it's needed. Lowering the rage cost of fr and savage defense would greatly help this.


You had a point here, but then you degenerated from comparing cooldown useage for balance purposes to resources and your point just disappeared.

Resource generation is fine.

Honestly the rest of your post is a lot of words to say "I'm not happy" without much real evidence to back it up, so I'm not even going to address it. It sounds like you need to play a different class.
Edited by Loveshðck on 9/20/2012 11:25 AM PDT
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100 Worgen Druid
11345
3. Over use of "math" to justify paper. I'm sick and tired of people relying 95% of the time on "math backs it up" type of justifications. Anyone can use math to prove w/e the hell they want. Solely relying on math and not remebering the humanity causes so many more problems. People enjoy math because it's "objective and reliable", except it does nothing in reality until you put it there.


When I've seen people refer to math to back up their position they're not using it for intangibles like "fun." Typically it's in response to someone saying a certain characteristic is numerically inferior to the way it was before. "Fun" can't really be quantified and that's why someone created a consolidated feedback thread on this forum.

Not only is bear not fun with these DRASTIC changes, bears are woefully weaker than dks/pallies. I have a strong leaning towards dks all the time because I was forced to bring my dk for wrath. Bringing my squishy bear was such a detriment, to myself, that I felt bad everytime I tried to bring him. Dks were SOOOO much better back then and even better now. I'm not saying nerf dks, I'm saying bring up bears and prolly warriors to the same level.


From my experience post-patch I disagree 100%. Not with whether or not bear tanking is "fun," that's completely subjective, but with your statement that the gap between a bear and a DK is greater now than it was before. If anything the play style of the bear is now closer to the DK as is the ability to be less healer dependent.

It wouldn't surprise me if what triggered the changes to the bear were the complaints that DKs were OP because of all their survivablity. Now they've moved us into the AM style which means we have control over our self-heals and damage mitigation. It makes for a harder style of play and I totally understand why people like it less than before but it also gives our spec many of the traits DKs were envied for and come symbiosis I think there's going to be a lot of raid groups who want a druid as one of their tanks.
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
Inability to be a druid. Druids are meant to switch forms and do multiple roles. Guardian bears do more dps than guardian cats, thereby negating the fact we even have a cat form. I could pop out to do some heals to lose all vengeance but not have a cat form to fake dps in. All they needed to do was take away bleed damage from our mastery. Bearcat was kinda op, but this to the ground nerf is ridiculous.

It's also necessary to balance in the individual tanking specializations based entirely on their tanking abilities.

It's not that Cat does less damage than 0 Vengeance Guardian (it actually does more), but the amount of time it would take Vengeance to decay to a point where switching to Cat would be advantageous, while still having enough time to bank 100 Rage before you start tanking again isn't practical.

09/20/2012 10:58 AMPosted by Droppinwrath
Drastic tanking ignorance that led to this "progressive" change
See #1. You can still do all of those things (actually there is a point to Innervating someone again - unlike in most of Cataclysm). However their effectiveness may not justify what you lose by doing so. Also Heart of the Wild.

09/20/2012 10:58 AMPosted by Droppinwrath
Over use of "math" to justify paper
People use math to tell people they're wrong when they say Guardians aren't effective. Because they are wrong 99% of the time. That doesn't mean there aren't potential differences in isolated mechanics. However using Cataclysm encounters to justify them isn't going to fly.

That being said, subjective items are totally open for debate. Some people disliked Pulverize, other people liked it. Some people liked Bearcat, others didn't like what it did to the skill ceiling. Etc. Etc. The point of these discussions is to identify things that the overwhelming majority of people are unhappy with in terms of "fun" - or playstyle - and provide suggestions to correct them.

09/20/2012 10:59 AMPosted by Droppinwrath
The disparity of tanks and willfully ignoring this

There's a difference between something requiring a lot of resources and never having enough to use it (valid concern), and having more than enough resources to use your abilities and still complaining that you can't use them (right now on Live).

Rage generation will go down some once you get to 90 in MoP. However once people are sporting Ht14 gear, we'll be swimming in Rage again.

Note that low level Guardian tanking is exempt from this, and is definitely a problem.

09/20/2012 10:59 AMPosted by Droppinwrath
Personal apporach to wow
Different people have different approaches to things. Some like to gather as much information as possible before applying their own experiences. Others are the reverse. Neither are inherently "wrong".

09/20/2012 11:04 AMPosted by Droppinwrath
I have a strong leaning towards dks all the time because I was forced to bring my dk for wrath
Because that had nothing to do with DKs being completely overpowered until the first or second balance patch after Ulduar. Nope. Nothing at all.
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90 Night Elf Druid
13785
09/20/2012 10:58 AMPosted by Droppinwrath
Blizzard messed up bears big time, imo, and here' where I feel betrayed.


You really need to tone down the emotional appeal type language if you want to be taken seriously. Betrayal is hardly fitting in a video game for any sort of change or adjustment or even an outright lie.

1. Inability to be a druid.


Druids have been focused roles with a pittance of other-role utility since Vanilla, even when we were marketed as Jack-of-all-Trades, Master-of-None. You speak specifically of Bearcatting which was OP and needed breaking. However, we actually have MORE cross-role utility now in MoP than we've ever had in the past. Our Tier 2 Talents provide gobs more Druid situational Healing than we've ever had AND not a single one of them forces a shapeshift. We can seamlessly cast Nature's Swiftness and toss out a Rebirth or Healing Touch without skipping a beat, dropping Rage, dropping Vengeance, dropping Bear Form. The biggest hindrance to Bear Druids in the past has been our necessity to stay in Bear at all times unlike the other roles, and that hurdle is largely gone altogether. You're mostly griping about Bearcat, which while gone, needed to be gone. HotW should be capable of reclaiming some temporary Bearcat feeling, but I think it is still under performing for that purpose, focus some feedback on that instead.

2. Drastic tanking ignorance that led to this "progressive" change.


No. You are mixing the roles and duties of a RAID LEADER with that of a simple Tank. A DPS can perform ALL of the tasks you list while doing their job as a DPS (hitting their rotation correctly, avoiding boss mechanics, interrupting on queue, etc), and likewise a Healer as well. My old raid team had multiple leaders focused on particular areas: myself from the Tank PoV, a Shaman from the Healer PoV, and a Mage from the DPS PoV. We split up duties, watched specific things, and it made the job more efficient and effective.

Thing is, Tanking all by itself DOES become boring and tedious at times, especially when the Tank job that fight holds no surprises, no reaction focused events, and minimal/no movement. Ultraxion was a wonderful example of a boring fight for Tanks. I couldn't even really call out all that much because staring at VuhDo to say who has Fading Light would just clutter the crap outta Vent. Honestly all that was called EVER on Heroic Ultraxion was a reminder of which group needs to stay out before Hour of Twilight and when Tanks swapped with a simple "Taunted." Which means the fight was mostly silent. Step back further and take in fights like Heroic Lich King or Halion or further still into TBC and most fights required very little constant chatter and communication.

You're mixing personal raid leader preferences with that of a Tank, don't.

3. Over use of "math" to justify paper.


What? You realize that without actually criticizing what is wrong with mathematically based theories and strategies and the like, and just saying "You can't prove everything with math!" you look highly ignorant and even slightly wounded that someone used math like a weapon in an argument against you. This has nothing to do with Druids and all to do with some personal aversion to simulations and spreadsheets (which have existed since Vanilla and before in a myriad of other games).
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90 Night Elf Druid
13785
4. The disparity of tanks and willfully ignoring this.


First, your other Tanks aren't showing up so I'm guessing you never post on them ever.

Second, we KNOW the Tanks aren't 100% equal, they never have been, never will be until strictly identical mechanics are introduced for all of them.

Third, your mechanical complaints are largely "I feel" without any supporting evidence. Resources only matter insomuch as they fuel end result skills. This is like saying that a region whose currency is 10,000 Simoleans to our 1.00 Dollar has it better because they have so much MORE of the resource. You want to do more things with a more granular resource, cool, duly noted, but that would just mean that abilities like Lacerate and Mangle cost some other resource (let's call it Feral Focus) that would net result in exactly what we have now: use Mangle off CD and when proc'd, prioritize Lacerate, etc etc. Tacking on artificial costs to maintain the same rotations does nothing really. Now if you want an entirely different rotation AND multiple resources, that's something to talk about... but you kinda need to suggest some discussion in that direction rather than just whine that 2 > 1.

5. Personal apporach to wow.


Your personal approach to WoW is what we call Raid Leading 101. Not everyone that plays this game is a Raid Leader and not everyone that leads Raids are good at it, but when it comes to basic gameplay and how to perform in a Raid, the duties of Raid Leader and just plain Raider should not be the same. You don't need everyone calling everything, chattering away on Vent or Skype (ugh) or Mumble or whatever, trying to be responsible for everyone around them and themselves.

Besides... none of this even matters insomuch as Druids or any Tank for that matter are concerned. You want people to think and act like Raid Leaders when playing a Tank, and that's simply not always the case. We typically Raid Lead, but not always. Less subjectivity and personal whim, more objectivity and concrete concerns.
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90 Tauren Druid
12485
The guardian spec feels like it's half completed.

I ran a few pulls of regular Tol'vir on this toon in guardian spec, ilevel 395, and what a chore it was. Any group that has mixed magic and physical damage you better be popping cd's or you are dead. It feels like I am playing the game to not die as opposed to playing the game to have fun.

Switched to my Paladin, ilevel 382, and facerolled through the pulls. I used Seal of Insight and Sacred Shield. I never had to use a cd and could always used Holy Power for Shield of the Righteous. I finished all pulls at full health.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/aggramar/Sollis/simple

I noticed my dodge as guardian was around 23% i think. Whereas my parry/dodge on the pally was in the neighborhood of 25%/12% with 50% block. I dont know if it's a scaling issue that will change at 90 but as it stands now guardian is functional but miserable to play.
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90 Night Elf Druid
13785
09/20/2012 01:51 PMPosted by Marrahu
The guardian spec feels like it's half completed.


There is no reason you should have had any issues with any of the pulls and you're vastly overthinking what you should be doing on easy content. Hit FR more and profit.

Seriously it isn't all that hard at all and the way you make it sound you struggle with the concepts of Guardian but not with Paladin.
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90 Tauren Druid
12485
09/20/2012 02:46 PMPosted by Fasc
There is no reason you should have had any issues with any of the pulls and you're vastly overthinking what you should be doing on easy content. Hit FR more and profit.


I survived all the pulls but had to work harder as a guardian with a much higher ilevel. For trivial content this is not fun. There is no overthinking on the guardian rotation it is very easy.

09/20/2012 02:46 PMPosted by Fasc
Seriously it isn't all that hard at all and the way you make it sound you struggle with the concepts of Guardian but not with Paladin.


I struggle with neither concept. I have been bear tanking since tbc. Guardian tanking feels half completed to me.
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90 Night Elf Druid
16980
09/20/2012 02:58 PMPosted by Marrahu
I struggle with neither concept. I have been bear tanking since tbc. Guardian tanking feels half completed to me.


Actually, I've been thinking, maybe it's like this way, because all druids, no matter the specialization, need to be able to do it.

Because of Heart of the Wild, they need to make it so Bear-tanking isn't complex so that non-tanking druids get the tools necessary to tank for the lapsed time.
Edited by Darigato on 9/20/2012 3:14 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
13785
09/20/2012 02:58 PMPosted by Marrahu
I survived all the pulls but had to work harder as a guardian with a much higher ilevel. For trivial content this is not fun. There is no overthinking on the guardian rotation it is very easy.


Work harder...

Guardian rotation is very easy...

Does not compute.

If Guardians are easy to play and easy to understand, how exactly were you working harder? Do rotation, toss in FR consistently, profit. If you're throwing on the occasional Bark Skin or popping Berserk/Incarnation for the added DPS as well as survival gain, that's hardly working hard, that's just playing smarter so that the pulls go more smoothly/quickly (emphasis on quickly, I hate soloing old stuff slowly, no matter how safe I might be).

You need to be more specific in what you did as a Guardian in order to compare properly to what you did as a Paladin. Item level is largely irrelevant when the gap isn't all that huge and you're doing older stuff. Plus your gemming is inconsistent (Agi/Dodge and Agi/Mastery) and heavily Agility stacked. We won't be getting oodles of Vengeance on old content and the formula favors Stamina on the lower end to ensure a flat amount of Healing can be done with FR.
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In my opinion there are two abilitys that are odd for bears right now,

1) Bearhug...doesnt seen to fit in pvp and doesnt seem to fit in PvE, I am not sure what the thinking was on this one.

2) Maul...I understand the point (more damage), but it is counter productive to use it. Would be neat if Maul either did enough damage to make the rage cost justified...of created an absorb shield that could be used to prepair for a damage spike rather than praying we dodge.
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
09/20/2012 03:58 PMPosted by Aqusinna
1) Bearhug...doesnt seen to fit in pvp and doesnt seem to fit in PvE, I am not sure what the thinking was on this one.

It has uses in PvP. PvE.......with the new Vengeance changes I don't see any reason to actually use it.
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