Enhancement PVP Set "Bonus"?

90 Goblin Hunter
4465
every forum for every class thinks they have it the worst. this game completely changes monthly. im not too worried
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90 Troll Shaman
6865
If you're not using WF/FB for PvP..... then I don't know what the hell you're doing... The reason the 4 set bonus forces use of FB is is because FB is practically required. Without it you will not touch your opponent, which would be MUCH more of a dps loss than some measly 8 second buff to a stat we shouldn't be caring about. And in my opinion, the 4 piece does more than enough to make up for that loss.

To each his own I guess.
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If you're not using WF/FB for PvP..... then I don't know what the hell you're doing... The reason the 4 set bonus forces use of FB is is because FB is practically required. Without it you will not touch your opponent, which would be MUCH more of a dps loss than some measly 8 second buff to a stat we shouldn't be caring about. And in my opinion, the 4 piece does more than enough to make up for that loss.

To each his own I guess.


Any decent Enhance Shaman didn`t use WF/FB for arenas last expansion.Regardless to the comps I ran , my team was able to keep our target snared.I don`t hate imbuing my off-hand weapon with the frostbrand. I just don`t like the fact that my Elemental Blast will do 40% less damage than unleashed flamed Elemental Blast. If you want to enjoy your set bonus , your level 90 burst cooldown will hit 40% less.This is what we are complaining about.
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Please read this:

This is ludicrous. A complete and total slap in the face to enhancement.

This is a function that SHOULD HAVE BEEN baked into Lava Lash. Meaning make the spell have the 40% regardless of what is enchanted on it. The 10% bonus from frozen power is no longer there, so there are no worries that FrB/FT will make a comeback.

This has been something Enhancement has been requesting since Wrath when Frozen Power was first implemented.

Yet NOW it is put in after practically all the changes to weapon enchants have propped Flametongue miles ahead of Frostbrand in practically every way!? AND ON TOP OF THAT it takes up the spot of the 4pc bonus, somewhere that something USEFUL to the class that got removed could have been put back in (something like the old Earthen Power clearing slows with Earthbind, or even just the flat movement speed increase we lost. I'm concerned about mobility).

I looked at every other class' new 4 pc and most of them got functions that are really nice and useful for their spec, and then I see ours and can't help but thing it was just a dev taking a dump in our helmets. I'm not trying to play the "ooo I want what that class has" game by saying this, i'm merely comparing the relative benifits to each respective class that their 4 pc bonus gave them, and Enhancement's is the only one that is actually mostly ineffective/useless in the PvP setting.

Ok, now that the rant part is over i'll get on to the hard differences, ignoring the 40% onto LL.

Flametongue yields a guaranteed damage proc on every hit, individually lower per proc but sustained.
Searing Flames was changed to boost the damage of that proc a significant amount, 40% on 5 stacks, though it will average out lower because the stacks are constantly being reset, so average it out to be a 25% boost.
Flametongue grants 7% increased magic damage for being active. That isn't just spells, that is magic, so that means +7% to LL, Stormlash procs, our attacks during Ascendance, and of course all the magic we do through maelstrom procs, shocks, searing totem, and lightning shield/static shock.
Unleash Fire buff from Unleash Elements boosts Elemental Blast, the only real/viable talent in the lvl 90 talent tier, pumping a ~48k hit (in full 90 PvP gear) against a dummy to 62k non crit.

Frostbrand has a chance to proc higher per proc damage that is paired with a magic 50% snare for 8 seconds that overwrites Frost Shock, damage which over time comes out to less than Flametongue's.
Unleash Frost debuffs the target with an undispellable 50% snare for 5 seconds that becomes 7 seconds if there was a frost slow already on the target.
Unleashed Fury adds a 50% speed boost for 4 seconds after using Unleash Elements.

So lets compare. You lose substantial damage not only from the proc itself, but on other things like ALL OUR MAGIC DAMAGE and of course Elemental Blast, in exchange for a dispellable snare, an undispellable snare on large cd, and a practically insignificant speed boost also on large CD. Ask Ret Plds what they think of Long Arm of the Law, and that is triggered by something with an 8 sec CD, half of Unleash's.

Ok, now the analysis. The undispellable snare is quite desirable in Cata because in it every healer has a magic dispel and with our two other snares both being magic (FS & EB) it was a problem for our mobility to be able to stay on ranged kiting targets because their healer could just dispel them and we have to chase them since Enhancement's mobility function is revolved entirely around slowing/rooting the opponent and then chasing them.

However in Mists, defensive dispels are on an 8 second CD. With Frost Shock being an 8 secCD and Earthbind pulsing every 2 seconds (unless changed), Frostbrand's undispellable slow is no longer needed. With Frost Shock now rooting at any range w/ Frozen Power, it is going to be the shock of choice in practically all situations (and when you're focus rooting healers/peels, you still have earthbind, which if dispelled leaves whoever was rooted undispelled). Therefore the slow is technically useful buteven close to what Cata wanted from it. This is especially true if you're paired with another class that has an easier time applying slows (LIKE ROGUES AND THEIR 4 PC DEADLY BREW).

I see zero situations where I would ever use Frostbrand in its current state because of the absurdly large differences in damage that you give up for a snare that is no longer as needed because of dispel cooldowns.

It is baffling how we got this bonus and yet others are getting things like they are.

Please remove this slap in the face, bake it into Lava lash as a band aid over Frostbrand's gaping wound for those that want it, and give Enhancement something it could really use, like the Cata version of Earthen Power.
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90 Troll Shaman
6865
If you're not using WF/FB for PvP..... then I don't know what the hell you're doing... The reason the 4 set bonus forces use of FB is is because FB is practically required. Without it you will not touch your opponent, which would be MUCH more of a dps loss than some measly 8 second buff to a stat we shouldn't be caring about. And in my opinion, the 4 piece does more than enough to make up for that loss.

To each his own I guess.


Any decent Enhance Shaman didn`t use WF/FB for arenas last expansion.Regardless to the comps I ran , my team was able to keep our target snared.I don`t hate imbuing my off-hand weapon with the frostbrand. I just don`t like the fact that my Elemental Blast will do 40% less damage than unleashed flamed Elemental Blast. If you want to enjoy your set bonus , your level 90 burst cooldown will hit 40% less.This is what we are complaining about.


^Bolded is completely untrue. And even if it was, that will not be the case in MoP.

Im not taking EB at 90 for PvP so your complaint is completely null and void to me. I dont even know why I said anything. Enjoy doing no damage at all.
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Troll Shamans never never cease to amaze me with their perfect logic <3.

^Bolded is completely untrue. And even if it was, that will not be the case in MoP.

Im not taking EB at 90 for PvP so your complaint is completely null and void to me. I dont even know why I said anything. Enjoy doing no damage at all.
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85 Orc Shaman
6250
The thing that amazes me is no one is talking about the loss of our current %20 increase to maelstrom procs. Here is the problem with Enhance:

1. Enhance is Rng based and cooldown based. No amount of setup time is going to increase our burst. Lightning bolt, stormstrike, earth shock and lava lash. All cooldown based or with lightning bolt rng based. This is exactly the reason we sucked in burn phases in pve. We can't pool a resource for that small window.

2. Windfury is rng based.

3. Mobility was gutted.

4. We are only there to make real classes better. Our damage isn't horrible, we just purge or interrupt to make other damage dealers work better. With wind walk totem that only improves.

There is more I don't feel like going into but this is the last straw for me as enhance. If when I get to 90 and we aren't "everything is fixed at 90" I'll retire my shaman/'s. I don't want to go resto and ele is just a horrible version of a fire mage.
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85 Dwarf Shaman
7665
Troll Shamans never never cease to amaze me with their perfect logic <3.

^Bolded is completely untrue. And even if it was, that will not be the case in MoP.

Im not taking EB at 90 for PvP so your complaint is completely null and void to me. I dont even know why I said anything. Enjoy doing no damage at all.


I didn't use frost brand at all last season.

Gebece is right.

that said i'll still be using UF instead of EB or PE.
Edited by Okay on 9/21/2012 9:02 PM PDT
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Troll Shamans never never cease to amaze me with their perfect logic <3.



I didn't use frost brand at all last season.

Gebece is right.

that said i'll still be using UF instead of EB or PE.


Gladiator Taowth was debating EB is more useful, I quoted from him :). That said , both talents will be useful in a different way. If I am not afraid of getting kited , I may prefer EB. Rockbiter part of the UF is very clunky , we need to use lots of globals to utilize it same time Hunter`s or Warriors can change their aspects/stances are not on GCD.

Glyphs&Talents&Set Bonuses&Skills&Gear are Dev`s tools to balance the PvP and PVE. All the set bonuses I know provide universal benefits regardless to your talent choice. I think Blizz is being lazy&careless and letting a set bonus do something a glyph is supposed to do. There is a price choosing a glyph over an another glyph.Set bonus shouldn`t punish me because of my talent choice.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
14050


Gladiator Taowth was debating EB is more useful, I quoted from him :). That said , both talents will be useful in a different way. If I am not afraid of getting kited , I may prefer EB. Rockbiter part of the UF is very clunky , we need to use lots of globals to utilize it same time Hunter`s or Warriors can change their aspects/stances are not on GCD.


I wasn't really debating EB's usefulness in that post, I was trying to highlight how the entire set of changes in the expansion propped up Flametongue to be even better than it was in Cata, in addition to the millions of snares practically every other class got (why did warlocks need a snare?). Flametongue is infinitely superior to Frostbrand, such to the point that just giving the 40% to LL to Frostbrand like was so desired in Cata just isn't enough anymore with all the other things Flametongue has.

That post was from beta, and my opinion on flametongue hasn't changed. From a pure damage standpoint, yesterday on live I stood and attacked a dummy using only unleashed elements, LL, and SS. The damage difference on each magic attack (LL, LS, Unleash Flame dmg) was noticably lower and the overall damage from the total procs themselves was a difference of almost 50%. And that wasn't even counting the extra damage from any searing flames procs or any other magic damage sources like Windlash, Shocks, Searing totem, Flame Ele Totem, LB/EB, etc.

Every class in the game has an easier more spammable slow for the attack target, with the exception of Ret, Shadow Priest, and I think Monks. So unless I was paired with either of them (and even then still probably not because of the aforementioned Frost Shock spam for the roots) I wouldn't even consider Frostbrand as an option.

And thus Enhancement is the only spec in the game to have a near useless 4 piece bonus. Just look at the 4 piece bonuses of every other spec and say that ours is anywhere close to what most of them get. This is a function that SHOULD be baked into LL flat out. "+40% dmg if off hand is enchanted with Flametongue or Frostbrand." Then, since our mobility is surprisingly terrible without Earthen Power, give that function back to us.

The topic of the garbage that is Unleash Fury forces us to use it simply to get something out of our 90 talents because of the fact that our garbage survivability pretty much requires self heals on 5 stack (meaning little opportunity to cast EB) is another issue completely, and one i'm not going to go into here because its not on topic.
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90 Orc Shaman
9620
09/18/2012 12:21 AMPosted by Monictor
There's no reason to have LL do more damage with either in the first place. It's a stupid mechanic and I'm baffled at the 4pc bonus frankly.


You're 85. Get to level 90 first then complain. The 4pc bonus is awesome.
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90 Draenei Shaman
7350
EVERYONE should request sticky, might draw some attention to the thread/problem. imo completely scrap the 4 piece, or work our current like rogues where we gain the benefits of fbw while ftw is active

for reference, some other class's 4peice bonus's:

hunter: 25% focus regen increase
mage: alter time cd reduced by 90 seconds
dk: For 3 sec after casting Death Grip, you may cast the spell a second time without regard for its cooldown.
spriest: When your Vampiric Touch is dispelled, the dispeller and all nearby enemy targets within 6 yards are instantly feared in horror for 3 sec.
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100 Tauren Shaman
17840
(4) Set: Increases the damage of your Lava Lash by 40% if your off-hand weapon is enchanted with Frostbrand.

Is this a set bonus or punishment or bonus+punishment? I think this a bonus+punishment if we are losing 7% magic damage buff, and as far as I know Flametongue weapon hits little harder.Am I missing something?


I was excited when I saw this set bonus tbh. Any who FB was always the cinderella of weapon enchants. They kinda forced FB on us with that talent frozen power, but then we lost alot of damage with our main burst spell lava lash. But now they are giving it back with this set bonus and unleash fury gives FB more a speed increase over a 10% damage to lightning bolt. IMO id stick to the permaslow+speed increase over the 7% spell+LB damage for pvp.
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89 Orc Shaman
3460
(4) Set: Increases the damage of your Lava Lash by 40% if your off-hand weapon is enchanted with Frostbrand.

Is this a set bonus or punishment or bonus+punishment? I think this a bonus+punishment if we are losing 7% magic damage buff, and as far as I know Flametongue weapon hits little harder.Am I missing something?


I was excited when I saw this set bonus tbh. Any who FB was always the cinderella of weapon enchants. They kinda forced FB on us with that talent frozen power, but then we lost alot of damage with our main burst spell lava lash. But now they are giving it back with this set bonus and unleash fury gives FB more a speed increase over a 10% damage to lightning bolt. IMO id stick to the permaslow+speed increase over the 7% spell+LB damage for pvp.


You dont understand. Unleash Elements makes Elemental Blast hit 37% HARDER if you have Flametongue on your offhand weapon. Thats a pretty big burst, and would be awesome to utilize. We could hit 100k+ in two GCDs (Unleash elements -> Elemental Blast -> 5 stack Lava Lash), which as a DPS class I would love to do. A lot of other DPS classes can do it. We, however, cannot.
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90 Tauren Shaman
7300
I'm thinking to start opening support tickets linking to this topic (or maybe the shaman forums) so MAYBE someone will give us some attention.

There is so many problems with Enhance PvP right now that it's just sad.

This is a Spec/Class that every day loses players because of the problems and Blizzard isn't looking at it.
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100 Draenei Shaman
8890
All I have to say is that if you use flametongue or have ever used flametongue on your offhand in PvP, you are probably REALLY bad.
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90 Orc Shaman
6330
Ya im sorry but i agree with draye Frostband has probably been the best option all last season...if u dont believe me check out diablous-eu probably the best enhance shaman in the world, gladiator every season as enhance...and he used frostband last season
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90 Dwarf Shaman
14050
10/11/2012 08:46 AMPosted by Warwolves
Ya im sorry but i agree with draye Frostband has probably been the best option all last season...if u dont believe me check out diablous-eu probably the best enhance shaman in the world, gladiator every season as enhance...and he used frostband last season


Wrong. Maybe you should check his videos out yourself. I checked his latest compilation (description stated as his best of s11) just to confirm, and it is plainly obvious that in every one of the matches in the 30 minute video he was using Flametongue. Watch the buffs area for when he's using Unleash Elements and it is obvious by the red icon that he's getting Unleash Flame.

Frostbrand is just flat out bad compared to Flametongue. Even with the 40%, there is too much Flametongue has going for it to make Frostbrand competitive. If Frostbrand recieved the saem 7% magic passive buff and received the bonus damage from Searing Flames, then it would be a balanced trade, because you're trading sustained higher damage for lower and bursty damage but with a snare. Yet because Flametongue from those other things Frostbrand is just junk and our 4 pc bonus is a wasted turd.
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90 Tauren Shaman
5305
10/10/2012 11:19 AMPosted by Fastwind
There is so many problems with Enhance PvP right now that it's just sad.


This statement is SAD. How could you possibly think enhance is bad in pvp right now? We can stay on top of our target 99% of the time(unless its a good frost mage >.>)Enhance is good at the moment and imo way better than it ever was in cata. I don't wanna be cliche and tell you to L2P, but unless you have something specific you can give me as proof of this SAD pvp viability, you just need to L2P bud :/ Enhance is strong right now so I don't know what your problems with.
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