PvP Power and Broken Scaling in MoP

1 Draenei Hunter
0
This is an interesting subject that hasn't been touched on much, but PvP Power giving a flat % in damage is looking to skew a lot of scaling with classes.

Currently there are PvP power gems, but they are only at about the same power as the primary stat for most classes so no one is using them. However, in MoP these gems double in value, and we gain PvP Power on weapons. Word is being spread that going full PvP power is the way to go, seeing as much as a 50% increase vs. players.

This is where a problem that no one else seems to be noticing creeps up. A flat damage increase is much different that a Str, Agi, or Int increase. Two things happen here; base damage will scale, and stat increases gain power.

1) Base damage.

Melee is out of luck on this one for the most part, as they are based on weapon damage which sees a massive drop with the PvP version. Casters however will see the base damage of their spells scale up with PvP power. It isn't much, but many 2-5% increases have completely changed the game before. To demonstrate with terrible numbers:

EX:
A melee attack hits for 10k in PvE gear. All scaling goes down in proportion with PvP gear. It hits for 8k in PvP gear but gets 25% increase from PvP power so they still hit for 10k

A caster hits for 10k in PvE gear. 2k of it is base damage, and the 8k is lowered by the same 20% as the melee's damage from using PvP gear. The total damage is now 8400. BUT they get the same 25% damage as well, resulting in a total of 10500 damage.

Again, these are nowhere near actual numbers, but the idea will remain the same. Classes with high base damage will see a higher return from PvP power.

2) Procs
This one is easier to demonstrate and understand. Lets say A hits for 10k with 10k Attack Power. Player B also hits for 10k with 8k AP, because of his PvP gear having lower stats but pvp power giving him 25% more damage.

They both have a trinket that grants 2k AP. Player A now gets a 20% AP increase and hits 20% harder. BUT player B now gets a 25% increase and hits 25% harder.

In actual gameplay the numbers will be smaller, but can quickly become very significant for certain classes. It all depends on who has the highest base damage on abilities, and can get the most procs. I haven't figured out who will benefit the most from this, but it's obviously a human caster, and likely a Mage spec.

TL;DR
A flat % increase makes abilities with high base damage scale better. Casters get even more OP and procs are more powerful. Classes that can combine the two may see as much as a 10% damage increase.
Edited by Talandirlol on 9/17/2012 10:29 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12215
Melee have base damage too.
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90 Goblin Warlock
0
Resilience and PvP power affect the final damage not parts of it. Your whole thread is misinformed and misleading.

If you have 50% increase from pvp no matter what class you were, if that ability was going to do 1000 damage it now does 1500. Then if a player has 50% resilence that 1500 is now 750.

Link some proof otherwise, but AJ has nothing to even show what you're saying is even remotely true.
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1 Draenei Hunter
0
09/18/2012 01:11 AMPosted by Balhale
Melee have base damage too.
This is true, but melee base damage is much smaller than casters, almost to the point of insignificance. Many abilities are even based on weapon damage alone, as is white damage.

Resilience and PvP power affect the final damage not parts of it. Your whole thread is misinformed and misleading.

If you have 50% increase from pvp no matter what class you were, if that ability was going to do 1000 damage it now does 1500. Then if a player has 50% resilence that 1500 is now 750.

Link some proof otherwise, but AJ has nothing to even show what you're saying is even remotely true.

I see you posting a lot, and it never seems that you read the post completely or with thinking about what it actually says, so I'm not surprised you did the same here.

It doesn't need anything to back it up, it's simple math. Let's take an example spell.

Currently the spell does 200 + X where X is a coefficient of your spell power. As Int goes up the X goes up but the 200 never changes.

With PvP power you're getting (200+X) x (1+Y) Where Y is your PvP power increase. X is smaller due to less Int on PvP gear but the Y makes up for that.

Y is increasing the 200. This means that abilities that use a high base damage will be better with PvP power than they were under the old system with Int.

If you're arguing the point about proc and trinket stat bonuses than I'm not sure what to tell you. I'm sure you'll argue with me in some terrible manner regardless.

The change this brings isn't huge. But some spells do stand out more than others, and getting more than 10% increase is entirely possible. Blizzard will have no easy way to change this, however, so I'm not looking to get it changed (it likely won't be anyways), but it's nice to know how your PvP power will change your damage, yes?
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90 Goblin Warlock
0
You don't seem to understand you have shown no link that shows that your math is even how it works. Everything that has been said is not that it boosts base or coef and that it merely boosts the final damage.

Show me where it says or has been proven that it boosts base damage only.

Also I like how you have a personal attack in there. When I'm PROVEN I'm wrong I admit it. I think there's been maybe 2 recent occasions of that if you care to look. However, typically I'm not and when I am you'll see me say. You however are stating something that I have seen no indication of.

So once again: Show me where it says it affects BASE only. AJ says it is a DIRECT 1% increase to damage like an aura(like having Blessing of Might for example is a 10% increase to attack power or old talents that were a 1,2,3% increase to damage done).
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1 Draenei Hunter
0
09/18/2012 03:00 PMPosted by Purebalance
Show me where it says or has been proven that it boosts base damage only.
Try reading again. Slowly if you have to.

I'll attempt to spell it out for you once more if you're at that low of a math level.

PVP POWER INCREASES ALL DAMAGE INCLUDING BASE DAMAGE WHERE STR AGI AND INT HAVE NEVER INCREASED BASE DAMAGE BEFORE.

This makes abilities with high base damage scale faster with PvP power. I'm not sure how else I can explain it for you to be honest. If you're still confused you should probably stop posting before you hurt yourself.

EDIT: In a nicer way, lets look at the old Avalanche enchant. It did not get any bonus from stats (outside of Enh mastery) and was quickly passed up. If PvP power existed back in s9, 50% PvP power would make the enchant hit 50% harder. PvP power is increasing things that never scaled before. This is what's happening.
Edited by Talandirlol on 9/18/2012 3:14 PM PDT
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16040
09/18/2012 03:11 PMPosted by Talandirlol
Show me where it says or has been proven that it boosts base damage only.
Try reading again. Slowly if you have to.

I'll attempt to spell it out for you once more if you're at that low of a math level.

PVP POWER INCREASES ALL DAMAGE INCLUDING BASE DAMAGE WHERE STR AGI AND INT HAVE NEVER INCREASED BASE DAMAGE BEFORE.

This makes abilities with high base damage scale faster with PvP power. I'm not sure how else I can explain it for you to be honest. If you're still confused you should probably stop posting before you hurt yourself.

EDIT: In a nicer way, lets look at the old Avalanche enchant. It did not get any bonus from stats (outside of Enh mastery) and was quickly passed up. If PvP power existed back in s9, 50% PvP power would make the enchant hit 50% harder. PvP power is increasing things that never scaled before. This is what's happening.


Give it up he found all the proof he needs of you being "wrong" because you didn't post a link to how it works
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1 Draenei Hunter
0
09/18/2012 06:23 PMPosted by Prieto
Give it up he found all the proof he needs of you being "wrong" because you didn't post a link to how it works

I have given up on him now, but I figured others may be confused as well so I'd go a bit more into what's going on. It is a bit of math, which many people reading can't figure out.

Unfortunately there are no link to provide as no one else has noticed it. They (namely Vanguards) only compared PvP gear to PvE gear then added the PvP Power to compare stats. They never thought about the smaller side effects it will have.

It's not a super obvious side effect, but when you look at the numbers it turns out to be fairly significant. I'm sure the exact same argument will come up soon after the new season starts.
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90 Human Mage
8560
to the above, some folks just dont understand basic math.

I do see your point, and unless blizzard dramaticly nerfs the base damage of all skills, ( namely casters ) then PVP damage will be even stupider when MoP goes to full swing at 90

I did notice that PVP power is even quite decent now.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12215
Some relevant numbers from level 90:

Starfire base damage: 3466-4457
Pyroblast base damage: 2017-2562
Chaos Bolt base damage: 2163-2643.8
Wrath base damage: 1029-1160
Ice Lance base damage: 227-292
Mind Blast base damage: 2703-2856

Exorcism base damage: 6577-7342
Mortal Strike base damage: 2702
Templar's Verdict base damage: 1727
Rising Sun Kick base damage: 985
Slam base damage: 2143
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12215
09/18/2012 03:11 PMPosted by Talandirlol
Show me where it says or has been proven that it boosts base damage only.
Try reading again. Slowly if you have to.

I'll attempt to spell it out for you once more if you're at that low of a math level.

PVP POWER INCREASES ALL DAMAGE INCLUDING BASE DAMAGE WHERE STR AGI AND INT HAVE NEVER INCREASED BASE DAMAGE BEFORE.

This makes abilities with high base damage scale faster with PvP power. I'm not sure how else I can explain it for you to be honest. If you're still confused you should probably stop posting before you hurt yourself.

EDIT: In a nicer way, lets look at the old Avalanche enchant. It did not get any bonus from stats (outside of Enh mastery) and was quickly passed up. If PvP power existed back in s9, 50% PvP power would make the enchant hit 50% harder. PvP power is increasing things that never scaled before. This is what's happening.


Ah, but if a spell has a 200% sp coefficient, then one point of intellect increases its damage by 4. One point of PvP power increases its damage by the same amount if the spell hits for (4/(0.01/265)) or 106000. In order for PvP power to be say, 20% stronger, the spell would need to hit for 132500.

Mind Blast's sp coefficient is right around 200%. In T14H BiS PvE gear with full raid buffs/debuffs Mind Blast's average hit is at 100000, 118800 including crits. So in gear that has much higher stats than PvP gear (2 full tiers of difference), Mind Blast doesn't hit hard enough for PvP power to be much superior to intellect.
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90 Goblin Warlock
0
Show me where it says or has been proven that it boosts base damage only.
Try reading again. Slowly if you have to.

I'll attempt to spell it out for you once more if you're at that low of a math level.

PVP POWER INCREASES ALL DAMAGE INCLUDING BASE DAMAGE WHERE STR AGI AND INT HAVE NEVER INCREASED BASE DAMAGE BEFORE.

This makes abilities with high base damage scale faster with PvP power. I'm not sure how else I can explain it for you to be honest. If you're still confused you should probably stop posting before you hurt yourself.

EDIT: In a nicer way, lets look at the old Avalanche enchant. It did not get any bonus from stats (outside of Enh mastery) and was quickly passed up. If PvP power existed back in s9, 50% PvP power would make the enchant hit 50% harder. PvP power is increasing things that never scaled before. This is what's happening.


No let me explain. You said in your OP this was a dps increase for CASTERS above everyone else.

A flat % increase makes abilities with high base damage scale better. Casters get even more OP and procs are more powerful. Classes that can combine the two may see as much as a 10% damage increase.


PVP power benefits EVERYONE the same. Your post is misleading and an attempt to get your class buffed more than likely.

The only thing that your post CAN say is about PVP POWER. Not about specific classes. You even miscalculated resilience at one point just to make it look like casters do more damage than melee with pvp power in pvp. They don't. Need a quote?

A caster hits for 10k in PvE gear. 2k of it is base damage, and the 8k is lowered by the same 20% as the melee's damage from using PvP gear. The total damage is now 8400. BUT they get the same 25% damage as well, resulting in a total of 10500 damage.


vs

A melee attack hits for 10k in PvE gear. All scaling goes down in proportion with PvP gear. It hits for 8k in PvP gear but gets 25% increase from PvP power so they still hit for 10k


So where did this come from? A caster hitting someone for what WOULD be 10k in pvp gear is going to hit as hard as what would have been a 10k hit from a melee. Explain that. You can't because you're blatantly lying in that part.

Once again the ONLY thing that your post should be saying has already been said: PVP power at 90 outscales int, str, and agi. There will not be enough pvp power compared to base stats early in MoP to make this a difference and things will even up at mid expansion. Stop posting your bad information.

Edit:

Let me clarify and YOU read this slowly:

This is nothing that hasn't happened in any other expansion. There are ALWAYS classes that hit harder early, but scale terribly. MM for example. Stop painting up scenarios that aren't even going to do anything new.
Edited by Purebalance on 9/19/2012 4:26 AM PDT
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1 Draenei Hunter
0
Ah, but if a spell has a 200% sp coefficient, then one point of intellect increases its damage by 4. One point of PvP power increases its damage by the same amount if the spell hits for (4/(0.01/265)) or 106000. In order for PvP power to be say, 20% stronger, the spell would need to hit for 132500.

Mind Blast's sp coefficient is right around 200%. In T14H BiS PvE gear with full raid buffs/debuffs Mind Blast's average hit is at 100000, 118800 including crits. So in gear that has much higher stats than PvP gear (2 full tiers of difference), Mind Blast doesn't hit hard enough for PvP power to be much superior to intellect.

It's obvious that the math is out of reach for this community, and I'm sure Purebalance is trolling by now as I've dismissed any response he makes.

Regardless, I've come up with a few actual numbers, and the base damage argument is very minimal at less than 2% increase for casters, although that's what top players have been rolling undead for so they will likely take interest regardless.

The effect on procs and flat stat increases is huge though. With tailoring and human, full procs are more than 25% stronger, meaning classes that stack cooldowns early when these stats are active will be much more powerful. You'll read this on AJ soon and accept it as gospel, so argue away.
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90 Troll Druid
15285
The effect on procs and flat stat increases is huge though. With tailoring and human, full procs are more than 25% stronger, meaning classes that stack cooldowns early when these stats are active will be much more powerful. You'll read this on AJ soon and accept it as gospel, so argue away.

PVP power has no bearing on profession CD's or procs. It is +% damage, having it effect damage procs ala avalanche is BALANCED otherwise those effects would be even worse on pvp then they are already.

The 'base damage boost' is a red herring.
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1 Draenei Hunter
0
PVP power has no bearing on profession CD's or procs. It is +% damage, having it effect damage procs ala avalanche is BALANCED otherwise those effects would be even worse on pvp then they are already.

The 'base damage boost' is a red herring.
Actually it does. With another horrible number example:

Lets say I have 10k AP in PvE gear. An attack that does 100% AP as damage hits for 10k

In PvP gear I have 8k AP and 50% PvP Power, the attack hits for 8k plus 50% so 12k.

PvP Power granted less AP but more damage, what people are seeing in beta.

Now I have a trinket that grants 2k attack power.

That's 12k AP in PvE gear and the attack hits for 12k

That's 10k AP in PvP gear and the attack hits for 10k plus 50% so 15k

Both got an increase in damage. But while the PvE gear saw a 20% increase (12k /10k) the PvP gear saw a 25% increase (15k /12k).

It seems small, but if you use actual numbers you'll see that players can gain over 50% extra AP from procs and trinkets, resulting in much more than a change of 25% vs 20%. Considering this will most commonly be paired with dps cooldowns this change will have a high effect.

And yes, while base damage will scale as well, when I actually did the math for abilities the increase was very minimal (<2%). But again, static increases of main stats are still a huge issue.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12215
I don't see your point - it's not like people are going to be pvping in PvE gear except possibly for the usual weapons and trinkets.

What imbalance is caused by PvP gear making everyone's procs stronger equally?
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90 Goblin Warlock
0
PVP power has no bearing on profession CD's or procs. It is +% damage, having it effect damage procs ala avalanche is BALANCED otherwise those effects would be even worse on pvp then they are already.

The 'base damage boost' is a red herring.
Actually it does. With another horrible number example:

Lets say I have 10k AP in PvE gear. An attack that does 100% AP as damage hits for 10k

In PvP gear I have 8k AP and 50% PvP Power, the attack hits for 8k plus 50% so 12k.

PvP Power granted less AP but more damage, what people are seeing in beta.

Now I have a trinket that grants 2k attack power.

That's 12k AP in PvE gear and the attack hits for 12k

That's 10k AP in PvP gear and the attack hits for 10k plus 50% so 15k

Both got an increase in damage. But while the PvE gear saw a 20% increase (12k /10k) the PvP gear saw a 25% increase (15k /12k).

It seems small, but if you use actual numbers you'll see that players can gain over 50% extra AP from procs and trinkets, resulting in much more than a change of 25% vs 20%. Considering this will most commonly be paired with dps cooldowns this change will have a high effect.

And yes, while base damage will scale as well, when I actually did the math for abilities the increase was very minimal (<2%). But again, static increases of main stats are still a huge issue.


Except if you go read the article on AJ about it all, everyone has baseline resilience of I wanna say 40% in pvp and then initial pvp gear puts your around 60% DR or more. You won't be doing ridiculous damage in pvp until a few seasons up if that.
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90 Dwarf Warrior
14765
Actually it does. With another horrible number example:

Lets say I have 10k AP in PvE gear. An attack that does 100% AP as damage hits for 10k

In PvP gear I have 8k AP and 50% PvP Power, the attack hits for 8k plus 50% so 12k.

PvP Power granted less AP but more damage, what people are seeing in beta.

Now I have a trinket that grants 2k attack power.

That's 12k AP in PvE gear and the attack hits for 12k

That's 10k AP in PvP gear and the attack hits for 10k plus 50% so 15k

Both got an increase in damage. But while the PvE gear saw a 20% increase (12k /10k) the PvP gear saw a 25% increase (15k /12k).

It seems small, but if you use actual numbers you'll see that players can gain over 50% extra AP from procs and trinkets, resulting in much more than a change of 25% vs 20%. Considering this will most commonly be paired with dps cooldowns this change will have a high effect.

And yes, while base damage will scale as well, when I actually did the math for abilities the increase was very minimal (<2%). But again, static increases of main stats are still a huge issue.


Except if you go read the article on AJ about it all, everyone has baseline resilience of I wanna say 40% in pvp and then initial pvp gear puts your around 60% DR or more. You won't be doing ridiculous damage in pvp until a few seasons up if that.


Yes, because Talandirlol is totally talking about burst damage. That is absolutely the correct interpretation, and not you just seeing what you want to see to benefit your argument. As a completely unbiased poster, you would never, ever do something so heinous.
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