the legend of Rathamus

90 Undead Warlock
7580
09/24/2012 09:55 AMPosted by Uuna
You're absolutely right. The Alliance does dominate in PvP pugs. It IS overall superior to the Horde in non-organised PvP. For a number of reasons, but they're not worthy of discussion here. I also win more often in pugs as Alliance than as Horde.


Alliance/horde pugs is about 50/50. I win at least 50%+ in pugs as horde.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
8315
Why can't we all just be friends?

<3


Please, just can't we please, oh please oh please
P-L-E-A-S-E please

btw 6
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85 Tauren Shaman
2045
I'm sorry, Uuna, but saying a 40 man pug has a chance against a full premade is like saying an unarmed man has a chance against a guy with a knife. It's possible, but he has to be a much, much, much better fighter. Putting yourself in a position where your opponent won't win a game unless they are much, much better than you - where being equally skilled is not enough - is cheating.


In this case, I'll beg to differ. You don't need to be so much better. Just better may cut it. Isle of Conquest is the best example of this. Even in premades you hardly need to communicate to know what to do. Nothing that can't be done in chat, unless you're playing the swarm gy farming strategy, which, ironically, does require more coordination in this BG than actually completing the objectives.

No. I'll never complain about the unfair instant communication advantage, because that's not the real advantage, and all others can be leveled by smart players.

09/24/2012 11:13 AMPosted by Cylthia
I also think it's pretty ironic that you're asking for 'civilized discussion' while falling back on the old troll standby of calling any complaints about these groups 'crying'.


Pardon my French, then. It wasn't my intention and I didn't think this would become an issue in itself.

Alliance/horde pugs is about 50/50. I win at least 50%+ in pugs as horde.


I hate WSG and TP. Never play them by choice even in their Calls to Arms. I actually choose specifically AV and IoC when I'm capped, because I like battles where an undergeared team can beat a PvP geared one just because it plays better. It lowers my stats a lot in the Horde. However, as Alliance I also tend to have less road fighters in AB and EotS, and people tend to respond quickly to incs in BfG. So, in my experience, the Alliance is just more competent. Period. The Horde fights more. The Alliance completes more objectives. Guess who wins more often? You want to kill? Go to world PvP (which I also enjoy) or arenas.

Yes, it may be a Retaliation battle group thing, but I don't think that's the case, since I've encountered the same issues in other battle groups as well.
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90 Human Priest
16915
09/24/2012 02:28 PMPosted by Uuna
I'm sorry, Uuna, but saying a 40 man pug has a chance against a full premade is like saying an unarmed man has a chance against a guy with a knife. It's possible, but he has to be a much, much, much better fighter. Putting yourself in a position where your opponent won't win a game unless they are much, much better than you - where being equally skilled is not enough - is cheating.


In this case, I'll beg to differ. You don't need to be so much better. Just better may cut it. Isle of Conquest is the best example of this. Even in premades you hardly need to communicate to know what to do. Nothing that can't be done in chat, unless you're playing the swarm gy farming strategy, which, ironically, does require more coordination in this BG than actually completing the objectives.

No. I'll never complain about the unfair instant communication advantage, because that's not the real advantage, and all others can be leveled by smart players.


Then explain the AV/IOC premades' win statistics. I got dumped into an IOC a few months ago with an HK farming group. It was a simply bizarre experience. The horde team never had a prayer; they were all being farmed at a single spawn point in no time flat.
Edited by Cylthia on 9/24/2012 3:02 PM PDT
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85 Tauren Shaman
2045
Then explain the AV/IOC premades' win statistics. I got dumped into an IOC a few months ago with an HK farming group. It was a simply bizarre experience. The horde team never had a prayer; they were all being farmed at a single spawn point in no time flat.


The explanation for me is quite simple: the average PUG player is a bad BG player. They may know their class, they may have a high dps, they may just slaughter anyone who crosses their way, they may know the easiest way to victory in each bg, but they don't know how to react to different scenarios, don't know better to read and use the chat properly and usually don't know how to choose their targets (both players and objectives).

A good pug is rare, but they do happen. It's one in which people check their map in AB and spontaneously go to the base they see that, of its 3, is being guarded by less people. You don't need to be in a premade to do that. You don't even need to chat much. You just need the situational awareness the basic UI (Preform and OQ are my only addons) and the people who call incs (inc lm 5...) give you. If a pug team can't do that on it's own, the premade deserves to win.
Edited by Uuna on 9/24/2012 9:16 PM PDT
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90 Human Priest
16915
09/24/2012 09:15 PMPosted by Uuna
Then explain the AV/IOC premades' win statistics. I got dumped into an IOC a few months ago with an HK farming group. It was a simply bizarre experience. The horde team never had a prayer; they were all being farmed at a single spawn point in no time flat.


The explanation for me is quite simple: the average PUG player is a bad BG player. They may know their class, they may have a high dps, they may just slaughter anyone who crosses their way, they may know the easiest way to victory in each bg, but they don't know how to react to different scenarios, don't know better to read and use the chat properly and usually don't know how to choose their targets (both players and objectives).

A good pug is rare, but they do happen. It's one in which people check their map in AB and spontaneously go to the base they see that, of its 3, is being guarded by less people. You don't need to be in a premade to do that. You don't even need to chat much. You just need the situational awareness the basic UI (Preform and OQ are my only addons) and the people who call incs (inc lm 5...) give you. If a pug team can't do that on it's own, the premade deserves to win.
What a load of self-serving nonsense. If premades weren't a huge advantage, would blizzard bother matching them up against each other? Would they have bothered removing the option to queue as a raid? As long as you have to go outside the queueing system to form these groups, as long as Blizzard is unable to match you against another equally coordinated group, it's a cheat. I mean, essentially what you're saying is that the premade 'deserves' to win because they cheated the system. Talk about entitlement.

You're honestly convinced that premades win because they're more skilled. What a laugh.
Edited by Cylthia on 9/24/2012 10:53 PM PDT
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90 Human Death Knight
9230
I think this has become another side show of sillyness.

The issue is this: In order to form a 40 man pre-made, (or any premade over 5 people) you have to work around the system and the rules in place, commonly referred to as "cheating".

To bring 40 people into AV is cheating.

ipso facto, vis a vis, ergo etc etc... you are proud of winning by cheating.

Quick Edit... We all know it happens everywhere. Like insider trading. And we would all prefer to be handed free money with secret (albeit illegal) information. But, there is something to be said about the satisfaction of earning. Can't have reward without risk.

And I very much enjoyed the original post. Hope to see you on the field, too.
Edited by Radioface on 9/26/2012 3:28 AM PDT
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90 Undead Warrior
12085
quite happy the short story was well received. thank you all.

as to grouping in a group activity, like a battleground, it simply isn't
cheating. never has been, never will be. i could say more to that end,
more than i've said here and in other posts, but the detractors will
continue with their *i know you are but what am i* rebuttals and there's
no reasonable dialog with that.

doesn't matter if it's a full pick-up-group, a premade, or a rated
battleground, it's still one faction vs another and therein is your
answer. us vs them. assemble what you can and have fun.

hope you're all enjoying MoP as much as i am.

Cheers.
Pleb.
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90 Human Priest
16915
quite happy the short story was well received. thank you all.

as to grouping in a group activity, like a battleground, it simply isn't
cheating. never has been, never will be. i could say more to that end,
more than i've said here and in other posts, but the detractors will
continue with their *i know you are but what am i* rebuttals and there's
no reasonable dialog with that.

doesn't matter if it's a full pick-up-group, a premade, or a rated
battleground, it's still one faction vs another and therein is your
answer. us vs them. assemble what you can and have fun.

hope you're all enjoying MoP as much as i am.

Cheers.
Pleb.
Getting around the rules is cheating. Always has been, always will be. Amidoinitrite?
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90 Undead Warrior
12085
quite happy the short story was well received. thank you all.

as to grouping in a group activity, like a battleground, it simply isn't
cheating. never has been, never will be. i could say more to that end,
more than i've said here and in other posts, but the detractors will
continue with their *i know you are but what am i* rebuttals and there's
no reasonable dialog with that.

doesn't matter if it's a full pick-up-group, a premade, or a rated
battleground, it's still one faction vs another and therein is your
answer. us vs them. assemble what you can and have fun.

hope you're all enjoying MoP as much as i am.

Cheers.
Pleb.
Getting around the rules is cheating. Always has been, always will be. Amidoinitrite?


in the official mop strategy guide, page 402, pvp combat, third sentence, *battlegrounds provide opportunities for larger teams to work towards objectives while stopping the other
side from accomplishing those same objectives.*

page 403 of the very same official guide. *players fight horde versus alliance in a structured game setting. you can enter a battleground alone or with a group of friends.*

there are no qualifiers of how you should enter. no group limits given other than the
obvious, the size of the battleground itself. there are no mentions of being uncomfortable
with people grouping together to do battlegrounds together.

further more, on the very last flippable page in this official strategy guide, you'll notice that there are at least 45 blizzard people that was involved in the quality assurance of this publication.

again, no cheating. entering the battlegrounds solo, or with 39 others, is honky dory.

working as intended.

Cheers.
Pleb.
Edited by Theplebian on 9/26/2012 3:10 PM PDT
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85 Tauren Shaman
2045
What a load of self-serving nonsense. If premades weren't a huge advantage, would blizzard bother matching them up against each other? Would they have bothered removing the option to queue as a raid? As long as you have to go outside the queueing system to form these groups, as long as Blizzard is unable to match you against another equally coordinated group, it's a cheat. I mean, essentially what you're saying is that the premade 'deserves' to win because they cheated the system. Talk about entitlement.

You're honestly convinced that premades win because they're more skilled. What a laugh.


There's little selfservice there, actually. Factor in this that I lose more often to premades than win with them, and that the vast majority my BGs (and WoW activity) are and have been common PUGs in all my characters.

Of course premaking is an advantage. People wouldn't bother to go through all that trouble and long queues if it wasn't. Note that my point was that the real advantage of premaking is to play strategically, and that good PUGs can do that with a 15 sec delay. Essentially what I'm saying is just what I actually said: I don't complain about premades because they usually do (in terms of strategy) what a good PUG could and should do spontaneously.

What would you say about the PFA way to queue? Essentially it's just to queue manually at the same time hoping to get in the same BG. It's fairly effective, actually, and doesn't employ anything other than the available knowledge about how the game works. Way more harmless than the infamous "shooting from rooftops" issue or the multiboxing abomination.

And yes. I'm honestly convinced in the end of the day premades usually win because of skill. While not specially gifted in any way, with a good premade it's just a matter of time before many players become more strategy savvy. It doesn't teach anyone to play their classes, but yes, people do learn to play strategically by joining a good premade, and their quality as BG players consistently improves. Many good players are drawn to premades and good premades do form good players.

Example: Horde premades from Public Vent have no requirement other than the patience to wait for reeeeealy long queues and the willingness to help the team (anyone can join with any race, any class, any spec, any build, any gear, any latency, any actual experience with the game). They are such a juggernaut because at least half of any of their teams really know what they're doing, and all that these people really get from Vent is that 15 sec response advantage, even if they themselves usually don't realise it.
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90 Undead Mage
5505
Yes!

I fired up the first full 40 man Rath Strat last night that ran for about 4 hours or so. People have been trying to pull them together but there are just not enough people that are either 90 yet or there are people who are still grinding out the PVE content. Over the next couple weeks things should start returning to normal pending interest.

I plan on organizing these over the weekend as soon as there are enough people to fire one up (25+). Log on the vent, stay on the vent, and watch for my comments in vent to be firing these up.

Alternatively/Additionally, you may ATTEMPT to add me via RealID at "rathamus@rathamus.com", however with a limit of 100 users on this list, it fills very quickly and I usually end up nuking the whole list daily to accommodate the masses that you may or may not have luck reaching me through this.
Edited by Rathamus on 10/5/2012 5:39 PM PDT
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90 Undead Mage
5505
10/05/2012 05:44 PMPosted by Syrelan
thats good to hear rath iw as going to faction change horde this weekend.


/cheer

Looking forward to having you fight at my side! FOR THE HORDE!
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90 Tauren Death Knight
7240
is it bad that many people are pushing to 90 ... just so they can play a vanilla bg?

blizz... here's a hint...

people want larger, more complex bgs... not glorified duels
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85 Tauren Shaman
2045
10/05/2012 05:38 PMPosted by Rathamus
Yes!


Nice. :) When I get MoP and level, I'll be joining you guys again for a few runs.

If you folks ever plan on doing rated, by all means count me in. ;)
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90 Troll Mage
5295
Lok'Tar O'gar
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90 Undead Rogue
16025
Loved it! =)
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