Garrosh is evil

100 Tauren Druid
9580
1. Can you please try and explain, succinctly, each time you use some accounting principle for something? I don't think most of us work in the field.

2. What in the hell does your post have to do with the person you were quoting? He was pointing out that wanting to drive people from land you want is not inherently evil. He was using the elves to point out that other races have done it and the act itself isn't generally categorized as evil.

Do you disagree? Do you think the elves, humans, dwarves, etc are all evil for said action?

I didn't think so.
Edited by Bullcowsby on 9/19/2012 3:12 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Troll Rogue
9870
1. Can you please try and explain, succinctly, each time you use some accounting principle for something? I don't think most of us work in the field.

2. What in the hell does your post have to do with the person you were quoting? He was pointing out that wanting to drive people from land you want is not inherently evil. He was using the elves to point out that other races have done it and the act itself isn't generally categorized as evil.

Do you disagree? Do you think the elves, humans, dwarves, etc are all evil for said action?

I didn't think so.


Edit:

Beat me to it.
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Rogue
8970
1. Can you please try and explain, succinctly, each time you use some accounting principle for something? I don't think most of us work in the field.


I'm not using it in quite the same fashion as I would over a question of accounting. The entity principle in accounting is in regards to the business as an entity separate from its owners, notably corporations. It is a similar concept to the way I am using it as it relates to the story, but it is not precisely the same.

The entity principle as I am using it here is that we must evaluate the actions of the governing entity, instead of attributing them to the race. In the case of the Horde, the principle demands that we cannot blame the current Horde for the actions of the past Horde, because they are different governing entities. In this case, instead of differentiating the owners from the entity, we are differentiating one entity from another.

In the case of the Night Elves and the Trolls then, applying the entity principle, you must recognize that claiming invasion as comeuppance for kicking the trolls out (if that indeed happened in Northern Kalimdor, we have no evidence) is flawed because that happened under a different governing entity. So, I do not agree that a race is evil because of the actions of a prior entity, which is what I am trying to demonstrate here.
Reply Quote
92 Night Elf Druid
10205
09/18/2012 11:14 PMPosted by Lyrtes
Sometimes I wonder what all those people who came out of the woodwork to defend him two years ago are doing now. Other than changing their names.

A lot of them are still defending him, saying that the writers changed his character to be evil, when he was so cool, noble, and honorable before, just to please the people who didn't like him.
Reply Quote
92 Night Elf Druid
10205
09/19/2012 12:26 AMPosted by Elrith
He's not really that evil when you consider how he views his enemies. He sees his fight as righteous, this is about his right to live a free life to flourish without having to ask permission or accommodate or compromise. He see's his enemies as oppressors who will eventually lead to the death or stunting of his civilization and it's right to flourish and advance. He is stubborn and he is willing to do some really bad things, but evil is a superficial word that does not do reality justice and it cheapens these acts to chalk it up to evil I think.

This.

Garrosh (IMO/understanding) sees Kalimdor as the Orc's just payment for what they've suffered under the Legion; and he sees the Alliance as evil tyrants who would keep the Horde from that just, deserved reward.

The problem is that he sees the Horde, and Orcs in general, as a warrior people, where battle, combat and honor are the be-all-end-all of life; in the short story he says that the two Orcs who express dislike of his father for leading them to corruption, and admiration of Thrall for returning them to their Shamistic roots, are honorless and 'not true Orcs.' In his mind, to be an Orc is to be a conqueror and that that is the only true way to honor.
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Death Knight
11170
Kyalin is basically arguing that the Alliance, and its member races, isn't evil because the Night Elves and Humans conquered those lands when they were not apart of the Alliance. If you can say that, then Kyalin can say the Horde is evil because the two Hordes share a name and history.
Edited by Abal on 9/19/2012 4:10 PM PDT
Reply Quote
09/18/2012 10:18 PMPosted by Dathrel
Why on earth do Horde players still have to kiss up to him?


Because Garrosh owns our souls until Vol'jin or Saurfang says otherwise.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
5780
09/18/2012 10:18 PMPosted by Dathrel
-allowed the Dragonmaw and Blackrock clans into the Horde, who're infamous for their evil ways


This, in and of itself, is not a bad thing.
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Death Knight
11170
09/19/2012 06:16 PMPosted by Velarin
-allowed the Dragonmaw and Blackrock clans into the Horde, who're infamous for their evil ways


This, in and of itself, is not a bad thing.


For example, Eitrigg and Saurfang are Blackrock Orcs. Both have been stellar examples of orcs since they've been introduced. As for the Dragonmaw, most seem to have similar attitudes to current Horde orcs, as the corrupt Dragonmaw seem to have been rooted out in the initial invasion of Twilight Highlands.
Reply Quote
90 Orc Hunter
6465
I'm pissed off, because getting Loremaster, I got to see Garrosh's phases.

In Outland, he's a young Orc, depressed over what his father did to the Orcs. Thrall tells him his daddy was really a hero. The Greatmother says the elements see great things in store for Garrosh. It sounds like he has a good future ahead, if he can just stop moping and see that.

In Northrend, Thrall's made him a leader, and he's getting that confidence. A bit brash, and he'd like to kick the Alliance's teeth in (kind of the Orc version of Varian at that point).

In Cataclysm, you see him in Lordaeron telling Sylvanas not to use the plague because it's evil, and resurrecting people into Undead is just being a new Lich King (all too true). He drops a general off a cliff in Stonetalon for killing innocents, after lecturing him on honor and quoting Saurfang, showing he learned Saurfang's lesson. Yes, he killed Cairne... but was upset at how it happened and would have rather died with honor, and that was after Cairne accused him of a crime he didn't commit. (Okay, you have to read The Shattering for that.) In Twilight Highlands, he leads the Horde forces himself, and welcomes in Orcs who were trying to redeem themselves and driving out the worst elements of their clan.

And then, suddenly in Tides of War, he becomes a maniac, a bumbling idiot, and a simpering fool, suddenly becoming a caricature villain. In other words, all of that character development gets wiped out and completely reversed. A growing character who was becoming complex and interesting gets thrown to the wolves. Once again, we see a character sacrificed, and the only reason I can think of is to appease the people who wanted a pacifist back in charge of the Horde so it could keep getting stomped on.


Great points, but one small flaw - we do not know yet what has changed Garrosh's character. That is the fundamental flaw to this story: what is Garrosh's motivation for doing all this and where is he getting the knowledge to do this? Where did he find out about the Focusing Iris and how to control it? Where did this subset of the Blackrock orcs come from and work their way into being Garrosh's version of the SS?

Sorry to keep harping, but this is a pretty big hole in the lore, not covered in game or in literature. Answers, please!
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Hunter
18880
Weirdly, the Developer responses to this question in the last couple days have been "Garrosh is NOT corrupt, he's WINNING. He has a very clear vision for the Horde and Azeroth, and so far his tactics have been making that vision come true."
Reply Quote
90 Orc Hunter
6465
09/19/2012 08:15 PMPosted by Threeslotbag
Weirdly, the Developer responses to this question in the last couple days have been "Garrosh is NOT corrupt, he's WINNING. He has a very clear vision for the Horde and Azeroth, and so far his tactics have been making that vision come true."


How can anyone call what Garrosh has been doing a victory? Hey, he blew up an Alliance city... which has unified Alliance efforts against him, alienated two Horde leaders against him and gotten the Kirin Tor commited to his removal. On top of all that, the one battlefront where he stands a chance of a victory - Feralas - is still a deadlock, even though a multifront assault might be enough to dislodge Feathermoon Stronghold.

Garrosh is good at manic leadership and the short term, but hideous at the long game and at tactical thinking.
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Hunter
18880
Weirdly, the Developer responses to this question in the last couple days have been "Garrosh is NOT corrupt, he's WINNING. He has a very clear vision for the Horde and Azeroth, and so far his tactics have been making that vision come true."


How can anyone call what Garrosh has been doing a victory? Hey, he blew up an Alliance city... which has unified Alliance efforts against him, alienated two Horde leaders against him and gotten the Kirin Tor commited to his removal. On top of all that, the one battlefront where he stands a chance of a victory - Feralas - is still a deadlock, even though a multifront assault might be enough to dislodge Feathermoon Stronghold.

Garrosh is good at manic leadership and the short term, but hideous at the long game and at tactical thinking.


Yeah, I don't know who the Devs think they are going to convince...since they already told us his tactics lead to him losing everything in the Siege of Org. That's just what they've been saying the last couple days.
Edited by Threeslotbag on 9/19/2012 8:31 PM PDT
Reply Quote
100 Dwarf Warrior
17100
09/19/2012 08:09 PMPosted by Orgatsa
Where did this subset of the Blackrock orcs come from and work their way into being Garrosh's version of the SS?
They came from Blackrock Mountain and pledged themselves to Garrosh's Horde, presumably following the death of their leader (Rend), their patrons (Nefarian and co.), and most of their members (innumerable Blackrock orc casualties in the Burning Steppes and Blackrock Spire).
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Rogue
8970
09/19/2012 04:04 PMPosted by Abal
Kyalin is basically arguing that the Alliance, and its member races, isn't evil because the Night Elves and Humans conquered those lands when they were not apart of the Alliance. If you can say that, then Kyalin can say the Horde is evil because the two Hordes share a name and history.


You've misrepresented my argument, and given how explicitly I've made this point, I believe intentionally.

The Horde is not responsible for the actions of the second war and events before the Old Horde was a different entity, just as Darnassus is not responsible for the troll wars because the Night Elven government at the time is a different entity.
Reply Quote
91 Night Elf Druid
9050
09/19/2012 09:53 PMPosted by Kyalin
Kyalin is basically arguing that the Alliance, and its member races, isn't evil because the Night Elves and Humans conquered those lands when they were not apart of the Alliance. If you can say that, then Kyalin can say the Horde is evil because the two Hordes share a name and history.


You've misrepresented my argument, and given how explicitly I've made this point, I believe intentionally.

The Horde is not responsible for the actions of the second war and events before the Old Horde was a different entity, just as Darnassus is not responsible for the troll wars because the Night Elven government at the time is a different entity.


In other words, what the Night Elves and Humans did at the time to the Trolls or whatever could have potentially been called evil (If the humans or Elves were slaves, it of course muddies the waters, hence the potentially bit).

The current Night Elves, even on the off chance that some of them were alive during that time, were not part of the leading government, AND said government had been entirely disbanded.

Humans "may" have had the same monarchy, but the government themselves (as well as the people involved) are all different.

In other words, don't blame the race. Blame the people.
Reply Quote
85 Night Elf Druid
0
[quote="65714884391"]
Garrosh (IMO/understanding) sees Kalimdor as the Orc's just payment for what they've suffered under the Legion; and he sees the Alliance as evil tyrants who would keep the Horde from that just, deserved reward.



Right, so, like we said, he's psychotic. Just put the stamp on that one, really.

Tell you something else too, those who are complaining about "ruining" his character just haven't been paying attention; he's always been this way. This is a perfectly reasonable, predictable arch for this character. You look at how he was in "Wrath" and then you imagine what that guy would do if he became all-powerful and you get exactly what we have here. Granted, the matter was confused by a few moments in "Cataclysm" where he seemed to show a level head, but that's where people got it wrong: those were the moments when hew as written out of character. You'll notice he went back to normal (read: derp) in Twilight Highlands. Because that's just how he is.
Reply Quote
100 Tauren Druid
9580
09/19/2012 03:54 PMPosted by Adammara
Garrosh (IMO/understanding) sees Kalimdor as the Orc's just payment for what they've suffered under the Legion; and he sees the Alliance as evil tyrants who would keep the Horde from that just, deserved reward.


Well, I would point you to 'Heart of War' - his short story. I think it might clarify his feelings towards the Alliance now. He doesn't really mention Kalimdor as any sort of payment or anything, but he does make it quite clear that he doesn't believe the Alliance will ever leave the Horde alone (whether he is right/wrong... it's still his belief) and that they will just continue to push on on the Horde until the Horde collapses. He states that his one and only concern is the protection and security of the Horde.

One might then argue that it isn't that he thinks they deserve Kalimdor for anything they've suffered, but that he thinks they must take Kalimdor to push the Alliance away and show them they won't be sat in a corner.
Reply Quote
90 Orc Hunter
6465
09/19/2012 09:45 PMPosted by Vegdrasil
Where did this subset of the Blackrock orcs come from and work their way into being Garrosh's version of the SS?
They came from Blackrock Mountain and pledged themselves to Garrosh's Horde, presumably following the death of their leader (Rend), their patrons (Nefarian and co.), and most of their members (innumerable Blackrock orc casualties in the Burning Steppes and Blackrock Spire).


See, that kills me a bit. I know where the Blackrocks come from, having run the dungeons enough times, but would have been nice to see this allegiance and explanation spelled out in game.

Sorry, but even as a lore geek, this irritates me.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]