No cap on vengeance, will it stay?

90 Blood Elf Paladin
15075
Well, I have been having threat issues since patch 5.0.4 hit and wandering why. Then my friend informed me that the cap on vengeance has been removed. The problems I have are usually after the first tank has taken a big hit. For example, impale deals tons of damage and stacks vengeance so high, I cannot compete with the amount of damage the other tank can now do. Its like trying to fight a dps with threat gen active, I just cant do it.

Will they put the cap back on vengeance? I can see this getting out of hand for everything from tank swaps, to dps race fights. The tank pulling the most dps by far would seem very appealing with the infinite vengeance. Not to mention it would make the first tank have to stop all damage just to let the second tank get any threat. I can't imagine blizz wants us to sit around doing nothing, especially when they added active mitigation.
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80 Draenei Shaman
550
Another one of these threads?

Tank damage is easy to balance around even with high vengeance. The purpose of high vengeance is to scale active mitigation abilities like Word of Glory with damage intake.

Stopping to let the other tank get a thread lead is nothing new. Happened all the time in Cata.
Edited by Loveshðck on 9/16/2012 2:23 AM PDT
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100 Night Elf Warrior
18490
Blizzard love rewarding bads who stand in crap.

Thats why loot is also rewarded via pure rng instead of effort.
Edited by Matayas on 9/16/2012 2:26 AM PDT
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90 Troll Warrior
16215
If you can stand in crap while being hammered by a boss and survive, it wasn't a very challenging boss anyways.

Also, pre-mitigation boss damage is one of the numbers we have zero control over, and thus have zero ability to exploit.
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90 Troll Warrior
9795
I just did Chimaeron, and having 200k attack power is just ... hahaha oh wow.

Hope they don't put in another Chimaeron boss fight.
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Sha of fear with thrash/dread-thrash said to tell you "herro".
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
17795
A lot of things aren't balanced right for the no cap, but I'm sure they'll have measures in place for MoP fights, OR balance fights with tank mechanics like that around tanks doing ridiculous damage (Alysrazor, but without just the buff being the reason tanks do 100k)

No cap vengeance is a bad thing in my opinion though, as there'll be ways that top guilds will exploit this, by doing things like guardian spiriting their tank to run into a one shot (but not GS level overkill)mechanic for a huge DPS gain, or having tanks take an excessive stack count of something like a Ragnaros debuff.

It could be interesting if those types of things become just Creative Use, or if they flat out break the game.

Impales on Heroic Madness already show us how ridiculous a tank's damage can get (500k+ spikes)
Edited by Postonforums on 9/16/2012 9:22 AM PDT
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80 Draenei Shaman
550
I would not be at all surprised to find that AD and GS type tank-saves will no longer produce Vengeance, or even set it to 0.

It may be that unmitigated strikes that deal damage more than thrice the tank's HP will not produce Vengeance.

I don't agree with it, but I'm calling it happening now.
Edited by Loveshðck on 9/16/2012 9:27 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
5960
TANK SWAPS ARE HARD LETS CRY ABOUT IT ACROSS 19 THREADS
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98 Tauren Druid
0
I would not be at all surprised to find that AD and GS type tank-saves will no longer produce Vengeance, or even set it to 0.

It may be that unmitigated strikes that deal damage more than thrice the tank's HP will not produce Vengeance.

I don't agree with it, but I'm calling it happening now.


The amount of post-mitigation damage taken that can give vengeance is capped at your maximum health. Or, at least, overkill damage that goes into Purgatory, AD, and I'd imagine GS doesn't actually give vengeance. Those abilities do let you survive hits you otherwise shouldn't, so they do help, but funnily enough they're already designed around and aren't 1-button wonders for it.

source:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1146477-The-Blood-Solo-Thread-2-0?p=18411944&viewfull=1#post18411944
Edited by Ahanss on 9/16/2012 12:02 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12350
If single target swaps are giving you trouble, maybe you should play something else.

At this point, the only thing I've seen an issue with, vengeance wise, is larger trash packs. Such as some of the ones in Firelands. Whichever tank is in the trash first is the one tanking all of it. This can lead to a tank getting wrecked pretty hard. I can only guess the same sort of thing will happen in MoP's raid trash as well, unless CC's are used once again.
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85 Tauren Druid
11270
09/16/2012 10:50 AMPosted by Gojiberry
TANK SWAPS ARE HARD LETS CRY ABOUT IT ACROSS 19 THREADS


Weren't you a tauren?
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90 Worgen Warrior
9630
If single target swaps are giving you trouble, maybe you should play something else.

At this point, the only thing I've seen an issue with, vengeance wise, is larger trash packs. Such as some of the ones in Firelands. Whichever tank is in the trash first is the one tanking all of it. This can lead to a tank getting wrecked pretty hard. I can only guess the same sort of thing will happen in MoP's raid trash as well, unless CC's are used once again.


Even this can be solved by having both tanks pull at the same time. So if you have 4 trash mobs, each tank pulls 2 and then separate them to prevent aoe threat from messing things up.

By the time we have enough gear to lolaoe trash mobs down, our tanks will likely have the gear to lolaoe tank all of them at once.
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85 Human Paladin
3355
Blizzard love rewarding bads who stand in crap.

Thats why loot is also rewarded via pure rng instead of effort.


Loot's been rewarded via rng since the beginning of the game.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
15075
A few things I will say. First, I don't read the tank forums. Ever. So, saying that I would not know if there are multiple threads about vengeance having no cap. However, doing a search gave no results. I can see why, the vast majority of responses to this thread have not even touched on the subject. Please, read the op or thread topic.

No cap vengeance is a bad thing in my opinion though, as there'll be ways that top guilds will exploit this, by doing things like guardian spiriting their tank to run into a one shot (but not GS level overkill)mechanic for a huge DPS gain, or having tanks take an excessive stack count of something like a Ragnaros debuff.

Impales on Heroic Madness already show us how ridiculous a tank's damage can get (500k+ spikes)
This is exactly what I mean. How would a tank, with no vengeance, possibly hold of the other tank doing 500k+ dps? Answer, they stop all together. Lets face facts and be real, what guild would want a tank doing 500k dps to just stop doing dps? None, thats who. There are mechanics that force us to swap. A tank doing 500k dps not doing anything to lower their threat during a swap after this will keep threat. Heck, I can keep threat from many people during a tank swap, and that was before vengeance had its cap removed.

09/16/2012 10:50 AMPosted by Gojiberry
TANK SWAPS ARE HARD LETS CRY ABOUT IT ACROSS 19 THREADS
Sorry, hard to take you seriously. Lets just say, your gear is horrible. Getting the socket bonus on bracers that's not worth it, not evening out dodge / parry. Yeah, you definitely know what you are talking about.

09/16/2012 12:24 PMPosted by Kaitelynn
If single target swaps are giving you trouble, maybe you should play something else.
Oh, single target swaps Are giving me a trouble in only a few situations. See the person explaining how they did 200k on chim or the other person saying tanks are hitting 500k on madness. A tank without vengeance vs a tank with enough vengeance to do 500k dps is not going to hold aggro unless the other tank stops. You are talking to someone who was tanking just fine during the threat bugs in the pre-cata world event. At that point, it would be like me going ret and throwing on righteous fury. Make sense?

The only reason it gives me any issues at the moment, is on fights like madness where they can get a TON of vengeance much faster then I can build threat and do crazy amounts of damage. On any other fight, its not even a problem. Just fights like madness and chim.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
14920
09/16/2012 01:19 PMPosted by Holoo
Oh, single target swaps Are giving me a trouble in only a few situations. See the person explaining how they did 200k on chim or the other person saying tanks are hitting 500k on madness. A tank without vengeance vs a tank with enough vengeance to do 500k dps is not going to hold aggro unless the other tank stops.


If you're getting that kind of dps output, you shouldn't have to worry about taunt-swapping for Impale. There won't be a second one.

As for Chim, the Vengeance threshold effect should give you enough AP to keep threat after you've taken a hit.
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
09/16/2012 01:19 PMPosted by Holoo
Lets face facts and be real, what guild would want a tank doing 500k dps to just stop doing dps? None, thats who. There are mechanics that force us to swap. A tank doing 500k dps not doing anything to lower their threat during a swap after this will keep threat. Heck, I can keep threat from many people during a tank swap, and that was before vengeance had its cap removed.

If the choice is between stopping and living, or not stopping and dying, the former will be chosen every time unless it doesn't matter if you live or die.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
15075
09/16/2012 01:31 PMPosted by Nerfheals
Oh, single target swaps Are giving me a trouble in only a few situations. See the person explaining how they did 200k on chim or the other person saying tanks are hitting 500k on madness. A tank without vengeance vs a tank with enough vengeance to do 500k dps is not going to hold aggro unless the other tank stops.


If you're getting that kind of dps output, you shouldn't have to worry about taunt-swapping for Impale. There won't be a second one.

As for Chim, the Vengeance threshold effect should give you enough AP to keep threat after you've taken a hit.
But the other tank would have to stop long enough for the tank without any vengeance to at least get that hit off so they get vengeance.

09/16/2012 01:56 PMPosted by Arielle
Lets face facts and be real, what guild would want a tank doing 500k dps to just stop doing dps? None, thats who. There are mechanics that force us to swap. A tank doing 500k dps not doing anything to lower their threat during a swap after this will keep threat. Heck, I can keep threat from many people during a tank swap, and that was before vengeance had its cap removed.

If the choice is between stopping and living, or not stopping and dying, the former will be chosen every time unless it doesn't matter if you live or die.
Unless there is a work around for it. Im thinking something like Guardian spirit / ardent defender rotations to keep them alive through otherwise deadly attacks so they keep with the dps.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
5960
09/16/2012 12:37 PMPosted by Tribûte
TANK SWAPS ARE HARD LETS CRY ABOUT IT ACROSS 19 THREADS


Weren't you a tauren?


LOL yeah I switched to tauren for T13. Now my mirror alt is set up to be the stam build with LW/Eng and tauren racial so my main can be belf again haha(I have no life, please save me)haha
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
5960
09/16/2012 01:19 PMPosted by Holoo
TANK SWAPS ARE HARD LETS CRY ABOUT IT ACROSS 19 THREADS
Sorry, hard to take you seriously. Lets just say, your gear is horrible. Getting the socket bonus on bracers that's not worth it, not evening out dodge / parry. Yeah, you definitely know what you are talking about.


Scroll down past my gear and check the scoreboard ;)

Read my reforging and think with your thinking parts. I am hit/exp capped with 108 points left over ... should I try to balance my dodge/parry with those 108 points. Cuz I have them in mastery so please explain how I could do better.

As for neglecting socket bonuses ... use those thinking parts again. Look at my meta gem then look at my gems. See how my gems are chosen to give the absolute maximum amount of stam while satisfying the meta?

*flings hair* God I'm fabulous
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