Rescuing 25-man raiding (US thread)

90 Human Priest
11030
09/19/2012 01:28 PMPosted by Gei
But when recruitment/raiders get low switch to multi 10m tell you can get the roster back up so gear and progress is still happening keep moral up


From personal experience this does NOT keep moral up. It in fact destroys it.

09/19/2012 09:11 PMPosted by Sabod
Kudos to all you guys who still deal with this stuff, especially those who have managed to do it for years and remain positive about it somehow without burning out, I know you work your asses off.


The juice is worth the squeeze.

09/20/2012 05:31 AMPosted by Volios
When it comes to loot distribution there are more drops per boss and more players eligible to be given those drops in a 25m. This means more time spent distributing loot. No, this doesn't make it "harder" in any significant way. It would be more accurate to say it makes it a bigger pain in the !@#.


This is one of those things a lot of 10 mans don't get. Sure, I've seen vial of shadows drop a few times. I haven't won it. It wasn't BiS for combat (my MS for the bulk of DS) and it was for hunters. I know some people say "I don't even care if I win I just want to see it!" but in the end the 2 are exactly the same.

09/20/2012 05:31 AMPosted by Volios
Again, I would agree some 25 encounters are more difficult overall compared to 10 man encounters, and vice versa. It's simply inaccurate to pretend all 25 man encounters are more difficult once the boss has been pulled just because there are 25 players capable of making a mistake. If you don't raid with mistake prone players (otherwise known as "bads") this is a non issue.


Most fights are easier on 10 man. I'm 8/8H on both formats, just sayin. There are exceptions to the rule (hagara comes to mind) but they are just that, exceptions.

1. More Sellable Stuff

It seems like 25 man raid teams have an easier time selling stuff (probably because it is trivial to "carry" a 25th person through farm content). Why not add more BoE / unique vanity stuff to just the 25-man format? More things for them to sell to non-25 man raiders (or keep for themselves for show).


Carrying a person through farm isn't all that difficult on 10 either. Easier on 25 but even on 10 it isn't exactly difficult.

What if the 25-man version of armor had different / interesting visual procs or something (kind of like what they are doing in challenge mode gear)? Right now it is a slight re-skin, but we could up the ante.


Actually the reskin is just normal/heroic. 25 gear looks identical to its 10 man counterpart.

09/20/2012 06:50 AMPosted by Waste
None of these things would make 10-man raiding suck - they would just add some non-essential (but probably very tasty) perks to 25-man raiding.


Yeah, they aren't bad. I dunno that its enough to save the format but its definitely a start.
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100 Blood Elf Rogue
21420
Adding more loot isn't going to help 25 mans because it didn't help in cata. During cata, as many 10 man players are quick to point out, 25 mans geared faster, substantially faster in some cases because of less loot wasted and yet we are still having this discussion.

The biggest problem that needs to be solved in the creation of a 25 man guild, right now 25 man guilds are very rarely formed, part of this is that a lot of servers don't have the people to support a 25 man but also 25 mans are just really hard to make. At this point I'm not convinced 25 mans are dying any faster then 10s the problem is while 10 man guilds are forming to replace those lost 10s no 25s are forming to replace the lost 25s.
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90 Draenei Hunter
13795
Some ideas:

1. More Sellable Stuff

It seems like 25 man raid teams have an easier time selling stuff (probably because it is trivial to "carry" a 25th person through farm content). Why not add more BoE / unique vanity stuff to just the 25-man format? More things for them to sell to non-25 man raiders (or keep for themselves for show).

2. Prestige Armor

What if the 25-man version of armor had different / interesting visual procs or something (kind of like what they are doing in challenge mode gear)? Right now it is a slight re-skin, but we could up the ante.

3. Tradeskill Mats

What if 25-man bosses dropped things like "enchanting dust" or flasks (like the satchel system)? Just to make it easier / cheaper for 25-man raiders to properly maintain their gear?

None of these things would make 10-man raiding suck - they would just add some non-essential (but probably very tasty) perks to 25-man raiding.


My immediate answer is that it doesn't address any of the problems. This would simply attract the greedy or lazy. It does nothing to address the fact that 25-man raids are far more succeptible to attendance setbacks.

25-man guilds suffer from two basic issues. Poor leadership and poor attendance. They're usually related and there's very little that the game can do to improve them. The ultimate solution would be to teach guild and raid leaders how to manage their teams more effectively.

Asane pointed out what I feel is the first sympton of the problem: too many guilds. Too many bad, poorly-run guilds, destined for failure because it's too easy for anyone to start a guild. That leads to a dilution of the playerbase, bad experiences for many new players and lots of mis-directed blame leveled at the instances for being too hard.

I almost feel as if 'Raiding Guild' should be a status that a guild can earn through completing specific achievements. There should be a required leadership and raiding course provided by the game, which demands a passing grade to complete.

Sadly I see necessary bureaucracy because some people can't admit to themselves that they suck and need to improve, or that they're not fit to lead anyone and should join an existing guild.
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90 Draenei Hunter
13795
09/20/2012 01:55 AMPosted by Vaerolaeli
And I really don't know where you guys are getting this "social interaction" stuff from. I've seen people get kicked out of 25-man raids for making a silly joke while people are running back from a wipe, and god forbid you actually speak on vent unless you're the raid leader, main tank, or primary healer. Raids are the most anti-social thing in WoW. Much of it is by necessity, but it doesn't change the fact that there's barely any communication in a raid that isn't direct instructions from whoever is directing things, much less a real social experience happening. With 10-man raids, I at least get the opportunity to occasionally type something in raid chat without fear of instant reprisal.


That definitely sounds like an exception to the rule. I've been a in guild where the raid leader yells, or is incapable of thinking when others are talking on vent and lashes out at them to stop. All the guild's major problems are encapsulated in that individual's behavior and until that person is replaced that guild is destined for mediocrity. I'm sorry you had that experience.

That does however, highlight a point that we've been making. 10-man raids are far less likely to have those types of oppressive personalities because they require a lot of peer confirmation. Some 10-man are surely all dickheads, but individual dickheads are usually weeded out, which makes 10-mans a much more enjoyable place to hang out.
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No one is going to like this.

BUt maybe move to 15 for everyone and be done with it.
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100 Human Rogue
11190
That definitely sounds like an exception to the rule. I've been a in guild where the raid leader yells, or is incapable of thinking when others are talking on vent and lashes out at them to stop. All the guild's major problems are encapsulated in that individual's behavior and until that person is replaced that guild is destined for mediocrity. I'm sorry you had that experience.


Agreed. I don't run my raids that way. No one in our guild does. As far as the joking around thing I'm fine with it as long as things are going well but when we are wiping to farm content and we have people making annoying jokes (the kid only he finds funny) we will ask for mumble to kept clear. For the most part our environment is very relaxed but there are definitely still times where we need people to focus.

As far as actually guild kicking people its an issue that has only come up once in the 9 months I've been with VoW. We had a tank who liked to turn his back on spine adds who kept wiping us over and over. After a very long night of wipes, most of which where entirely his fault he says "don't worry guys, we'll get it at 20%!" and logs off. He was removed and the next week we killed it with an OS tank doing his job.

Our goal is to create a relaxed but still focused raiding environment. We like to have fun and goof off but at the end of the day every person on our roster from 1-25 is there to kill bosses. Having like minded players is essential for our environment. We don't scream or yell or tell you your the worst raider we've ever seen (and believe me, we've had trials that do fit this criteria) but we do still require you to perform.
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100 Human Rogue
11190
No one is going to like this.

BUt maybe move to 15 for everyone and be done with it.


...can we settle on 20 mans?
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90 Human Death Knight
12455
09/20/2012 10:55 AMPosted by Karamok
25-man guilds suffer from two basic issues. Poor leadership and poor attendance. They're usually related and there's very little that the game can do to improve them.

I respectfully disagree. 40-man guilds generally had excellent leadership and excellent attendance - and that was a direct result of how the game was designed.

In Vanilla, if you didn't have both, you simply couldn't kill anything, and if you couldn't kill anything at the 40-man level, you didn't get to raid at all (since there were no other options). So people stepped up because the price of failure was extreme - you got locked out of content, loot, etc., end of story.

Put differently: The only reasons 25-man raid guilds with "poor leadership and poor attendence" even exist is because (a) people settle for them and, frankly, because (b) Blizzard makes it possible for them to succeed.

Blizzard isn't willing to use "stick" any more (raid well or don't raid at all), so we have to look at carrot: What would make a player *want* to offer high attendence and quality leadership?
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
17795
No one is going to like this.

BUt maybe move to 15 for everyone and be done with it.


14 man

Because I said so.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13990
To add to my original post after some thoughts.

The easy way to rescue 25 man is to actually enable cross-realm raids. It's the only way to go if you want raiders to actually have a real choice over the format they want to raid. Could be limited to 25 as a perk, or not, but any other ideas I hear would result in either not giving the player the option to chose, or having unhappy customers. The goal here is to allow people to raid the format they want so they really have a choice, not to lure those who chose to raid 10 man into 25 man.

Next logical step after that would be any kind of cross-realm grouping. Could be a guild, could be another type of association (Housing?).

Yes, Blizzard would lose money off-server transfers, but I really think this would be more profitable and would bring a lot of players back. If you really think about it, having access to everybody and every guilds in your region would change a lot of things.

Then it would be very important that initiatives like openraid exists to not only be able to raid, but be able to recruit valuable players, because there would be a ton of players available.
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10 Human Rogue
0
No one is going to like this.

BUt maybe move to 15 for everyone and be done with it.


...can we settle on 20 mans?


I'll settle on either 15 or 20
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90 Draenei Hunter
13795
09/20/2012 11:46 AMPosted by Waste
In Vanilla, if you didn't have both, you simply couldn't kill anything, and if you couldn't kill anything at the 40-man level, you didn't get to raid at all (since there were no other options). So people stepped up because the price of failure was extreme - you got locked out of content, loot, etc., end of story.


You're forgetting AQ20 and ZG, with ZA being on a 5-day reset timer. When our 40-man as doing well attendance-wise, we raided everything including 20-mans. Sadly some weeks we had to settle for 20-mans.

What I do agree with is the inference that starting and maintaining a 40-man roster is deterrent enough to fend off the wannabes and faint-of-heart leaders. I must admit that was something I hadn't considered before.
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90 Orc Shaman
13750
No one is going to like this.

BUt maybe move to 15 for everyone and be done with it.


Honestly, anything below 20 - and even 20 is pushing it - would make me quit.

One of the reasons I raid is that I like the epic feeling of large groups killing bosses. Creating order and coordination out of chaos. Plus, just the idea of having larger groups of people. It makes the rest of the content more easily accessible and it just relieves tedium if lots of people are around to talk !@#$ with.

Asane pointed out what I feel is the first sympton of the problem: too many guilds. Too many bad, poorly-run guilds, destined for failure because it's too easy for anyone to start a guild. That leads to a dilution of the playerbase, bad experiences for many new players and lots of mis-directed blame leveled at the instances for being too hard.


Corollary to that is that the leveling game is too easy and the game overall lacks a learning curve.
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90 Draenei Hunter
13795
09/20/2012 11:46 AMPosted by Waste
Blizzard isn't willing to use "stick" any more (raid well or don't raid at all), so we have to look at carrot: What would make a player *want* to offer high attendence and quality leadership?


I personally think that's what got us into this mess: valuing external rewards over internal.

What would make a player want to offer high attendance? Negative consquences for being absent. It's what keeps players showing up in the best guilds. Because they know they will be reprimanded or sat or cut.

What kills it right now is the community's acceptance of its own bad habits. Flakey behavior is often reinforced by guilds and leaders who often don't have the balls or the luxury of cutting bad players. If punctuality and consistent attendance were socially accepted minimums of behavior we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Until the playerbase extracts its collective head from its sizable rear orifice I honestly don't think there's much that can be done by the developers. I hope I'm wrong, but fear I'm not.
Edited by Karamok on 9/20/2012 2:31 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Hunter
13795
No one is going to like this.

BUt maybe move to 15 for everyone and be done with it.


...can we settle on 20 mans?


I prefer 10 myself, but if I had to pick one I think it would be 25. I think any less fails to provide the epic feeling. Also, the higher the number, the less total raid groups there need to be, meaning a need for less raid leaders.

I think consolidation of the player base could result in the creation of hundreds of good 25-man guilds. I have no idea how you would do it, just that I'm certain that the population is so diffused that it's no wonder so many guilds come and go.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
0
09/20/2012 12:09 PMPosted by Zurak
The goal here is to allow people to raid the format they want so they really have a choice, not to lure those who chose to raid 10 man into 25 man.


How do you find guilds in a full cross server system though? It's already somewhat of a challenge to not get lost/drowned out on something like Illidan.

As far as leaving guilds/poaching- some is fine. There's an optimal level where people can move up/quit the game/be poached, but it's slow enough that you can replace them without the guild becoming unstable.

Servers are kind of good about adding a little "stickiness" to guildhopping. which is fine, as long as the server isn't dead etc. It's just gotta be in moderation.
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No one is going to like this.

BUt maybe move to 15 for everyone and be done with it.


...can we settle on 20 mans?


GC said if they were doing the move now, they would have went to 15 man.

It gives them the perfect size of convenience of a smaller raid combined with the class distribution of a larger raid.

10 man can not possibly have 1 of each class, therefore the devs cant assume any class is present.
therefore 10 man has to be easier because they cant possibly know what buffs they have.

Another problem with 10 man is the difference between a 2 and 3 healer composition is HUGE,much much much bigger than the difference between a 5 and 6 healer 25

the problem with 25's is recruiting is a nightmare, a horrid scary nightmare of logistics. Its neither engaging or fun, its just stressfull.

15 would be the perfect raid size even though it would personally make life difficult for me and my guild, but in this case I know its the right thing for the game.

My guess is the switch to 15 will happen late this expansion or early next.
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90 Draenei Hunter
13795
09/20/2012 01:09 PMPosted by Sarosha
the problem with 25's is recruiting is a nightmare, a horrid scary nightmare of logistics. Its neither engaging or fun, its just stressfull.


I think it would be totally different with one size of guild. The problem right now is that 25s are competing with 10s for the free bodies. If everyone were funneled into one size then recruiting would be based on merit, not ideology. I think it would have the effect of focusing everyone on the same obstacles, instead of splitting the community over which is best, and would create an environment where bad guilds came under much greater scrutiny by the playerbase. Recruiting would still be challenging, but without the burden of trying to recruit players away from a much easier, yet equally rewarding format.
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100 Undead Warlock
22455
09/20/2012 11:46 AMPosted by Waste
Put differently: The only reasons 25-man raid guilds with "poor leadership and poor attendence" even exist is because (a) people settle for them and, frankly, because (b) Blizzard makes it possible for them to succeed.


Waste you and I rarely agree on these forums but you nailed one of the most insightful observations in this thread with your point B.

The game went through a seas change with the release of Wrath in which its' design was built around equality of outcome and an assurance that every player would see every encounter, get everything they wanted, and effectively made failure impossible.

The consequence of that decision is growing every day.
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100 Undead Warlock
22455

GC said if they were doing the move now, they would have went to 15 man.

It gives them the perfect size of convenience of a smaller raid combined with the class distribution of a larger raid.


Your taking huge parts of that quote out of context. Fifteen became an ideal size because the playerbase migrated to smaller raids when the option became available in Wrath. No one complained about twnety-five mans during TBC. The frustrations of raid size was more the brutal migration from forty to ten and then back up to twenty-five.

They chose to start offering ten man raid sizes because their internal data showed tons of Kara and ZG runs. They never stopped to really think why there were so many Kara and ZG runs though. It had little to do with people just loving ten mans.

We all spam ran Kara throughout the expansion because it was a fast twenty-two badges and easy void crystals. We also ran it hoping to see those rare enchant formulas drop and maybe an outside shot at the mount. I ran it every week while progressing through t5, t6, and Sunwell not because I just loved ten mans per se but because it had some things I needed and was fast, quick, and easy. It was fun but it wasn't fun because of the raid size. It was fun because it was a blow off instance and not progression with some neat rewards.

We ran ZG every lockout because we could charge 10k gold for a bear and chopped it up amongst ourselves. It was fun but it wasn't fun because of the raid size. It was fun because it was a blow off instance and not progression with some neat rewards.

09/20/2012 01:09 PMPosted by Sarosha
My guess is the switch to 15 will happen late this expansion or early next.


Only if the community sheepishly accepts it. This game is built on social bonds. It's never been about shiny loot, pixalated titles, or the bragging rights of slaying the latest dragon manking so much as it has been about the people you play it with. Entire communities (guilds and raids) have been developed around the size formats available. If they insist on changing that in any way why something "in the middle"?

Changing to one unified compromise raid size would not be making a decison so much as it would be avoiding making a decision. A compromise size is about trying not to piss people off more than it is about making a size that's "best for the game". If all of your playerbase is already invested in something else why change it? Why not simply kill one of the existing sizes and accept that fallout?

Picking a totally different size would be about making players feel that they didn't "lose" since the "other" size wasn't picked either. It's not a solution but a cowardly way of avoiding responsibility and leadership.

I will stop playing if twenty-five mans go away. Does Blizzard really care? No and I know this. The truth is lots of people will quit if twenty-five mans or ten mans go away be it through unification into a compromise size or outright removal. Rather than trying to mitigate that fallout with vain hopes they stay onboard for the new size why not just accept those losses and move forward with the portion of your playerbase you want to cater to.

This analogy may not play well to video games but there is some real truth in it. A famous Chef once said "When youstart you give people what they want. When you succeed you can now give them what you want. There is no shame in firing your customers if they aren't looking for the same vision as you. Everyone is happier in the end."
Edited by Yukio on 9/20/2012 2:16 PM PDT
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