MoP 5.4 Elemental Guide: Zap that Orc!

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90 Draenei Shaman
16690
09/23/2012 12:38 PMPosted by Liax
Unfortunately I've deleted my beta already...


Me too :(

09/23/2012 12:38 PMPosted by Liax
My point would be that as of right now our lava burst damage makes up like 35% of our damage.


Trying to figure out how Simcraft is getting 24.7% on live.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
13920
09/23/2012 12:52 PMPosted by Gistwiki
Trying to figure out how Simcraft is getting 24.7% on live.

No Ascendance?
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90 Draenei Shaman
16690
Trying to figure out how Simcraft is getting 24.7% on live.

No Ascendance?


Look at what I quoted. Liax is saying he's getting 35% on live :<

I mean... I could've replied with an implication that he's bad just for the fun of it but I didn't.
Edited by Gistwiki on 9/23/2012 12:59 PM PDT
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90 Troll Shaman
12580
I guess I don't pay that close attention to my %s anymore.

I'll go sit on a dummy for like 5 minutes and check out my breakdown.
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90 Troll Shaman
12580
http://imageshack.us/a/img255/8724/wowscrnshot092312154244.jpg

10 million damage run.

30%, not 35%. I was hovering between 31-33% for awhile, but finally flat lined out.

09/23/2012 12:58 PMPosted by Gistwiki
I mean... I could've replied with an implication that he's bad just for the fun of it but I didn't.


For the record the more LvB makes up your % breakdown the better you are with managing lava surge procs! :D

Well...provided you're not just sitting there between the CD :<
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90 Draenei Shaman
16690
I guess I don't pay that close attention to my %s anymore.

I'll go sit on a dummy for like 5 minutes and check out my breakdown.


Eh. Could just as easily be a simcraft issue, which is why I asked you to check ^.^
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90 Draenei Shaman
16690
http://imageshack.us/a/img255/8724/wowscrnshot092312154244.jpg

10 million damage run.

30%, not 35%. I was hovering between 31-33% for awhile, but finally flat lined out.


Separate totems from your total damage and then mouse over it so I can see the breakdown of totem damage as well.

That's probably where the disconnect you're seeing is.

Edit: Adding the damage up it almost doesn't seem like you used totems >.>

searing should be showing up as around 2-2.5% of your damage and FET/EET should be bringing a total of ~6.5%
Edited by Gistwiki on 9/23/2012 2:00 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Shaman
13920
more likely that

09/23/2012 12:58 PMPosted by Gistwiki
he's bad
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90 Troll Shaman
12580
09/23/2012 01:57 PMPosted by Gistwiki
Edit: Adding the damage up it almost doesn't seem like you used totems >.>


I did, but not FE. Didn't use FE though so I guess that would drop it down to an area around 25%
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90 Draenei Shaman
16690
Looking at the damage again Searing appears about right. You also don't use stormlash, but neither is the live Simc.

I could see FE dropping it down a percent or two and the rest is within the margin of RNG error.
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90 Orc Shaman
16070
bump and support for the new guide!
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90 Troll Shaman
8585
Excellent guide, we all very much appreciate the time and effort invested in its creation. Thumbs up!

I was wondering if you could expand a bit more on Spirit.

Some specific questions:
# What is the conversion rate of Spirit to Hit? (I know I could find out in game, but I looked for that info in your guide).

# In what way and by how much does Spirit affect mana regen for Elemental?

# Is Spirit more desirable than plain Hit due to it's 2-fold usefulness? (mana regen and providing Hit). Is Spirit on an equal level in terms of stat weight compared to Hit? I am semi guessing, but I was under the impression that gear has a higher amount of Spirit than most other stats because, for example, 5 Spirit = 1 Hit. Or 5 Spirit = 2 Crit. So a "Ring of Amazingness has +500 Spirit and the same iLvL Ring of Awesomeness has + 100 Hit. Do you know what I mean?

Assuming you do know what I mean, and taking the above phenomenon into consideration, it seems to me that Spirit is far more desirable than plain Hit, even to the extent of reforging and Gemming other valuable stats in favour of Spirit. I guess this is also assuming the Spirit to Hit conversion rate is balanced following a similar style of "stat weight" distribution.

Notes: * Its late- idea clear in my mind...but difficult to relay in words :(
* I mainly PvP, but the guide is still valuable knowledge
* The amount of research, knowledge, enthusiasm, time and energy this guide represents really is awesome. Most other classes have plenty of heroes that have done something similar for their class ..... its a little more rare for Shaman I think, and more rare still for Elemental. I hope this sort of thing continues after MoP drops and as the game keeps evolving!
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90 Draenei Shaman
16690
09/24/2012 07:59 AMPosted by Kutcho
# What is the conversion rate of Spirit to Hit? (I know I could find out in game, but I looked for that info in your guide).


100%. I'll clarify that in the guide.

09/24/2012 07:59 AMPosted by Kutcho
# In what way and by how much does Spirit affect mana regen for Elemental?


None.

09/24/2012 07:59 AMPosted by Kutcho
# Is Spirit more desirable than plain Hit due to it's 2-fold usefulness? (mana regen and providing Hit). Is Spirit on an equal level in terms of stat weight compared to Hit? I am semi guessing, but I was under the impression that gear has a higher amount of Spirit than most other stats because, for example, 5 Spirit = 1 Hit. Or 5 Spirit = 2 Crit. So a "Ring of Amazingness has +500 Spirit and the same iLvL Ring of Awesomeness has + 100 Hit. Do you know what I mean?


No, Yes, and no there is no increased amount of spirit. It has the exact same secondary stat weight as every other secondary stat. 1 spirit = 1 hit = 1 crit = 1 haste = 1 mastery in terms of the budgeting it receives.

In Cata hit was actually slightly more valuable than spirit because of a bug where the spirit that was converted into hit was not properly applied to the fire elemental totem whereas normal hit was. So far as I know this is fixed in MoP.

09/24/2012 07:59 AMPosted by Kutcho
I hope this sort of thing continues after MoP drops and as the game keeps evolving!


So long as we have someone like Binkenstein driving our theorycrafting we'll always be in pretty good shape. He's one helluva guy :)
Edited by Gistwiki on 9/24/2012 8:32 AM PDT
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90 Troll Shaman
8585
Cheers for clarification.

I obviously missed the patch note that said "spirit does jack for Elemental, 'cept for the hit conversion thing". Im pretty disappointed - a stat that Ive always found pretty boring continues its crusade of lameness, in fact even upped the lame factor. From an Ele perspective.
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90 Draenei Shaman
16690
09/24/2012 09:36 AMPosted by Kutcho
I obviously missed the patch note that said "spirit does jack for Elemental, 'cept for the hit conversion thing".


It provides out of combat mana regen. In combat mana regen from spirit is for healers only. That change was made at the start of cata :<
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90 Troll Shaman
12580
09/24/2012 09:36 AMPosted by Kutcho
I obviously missed the patch note that said "spirit does jack for Elemental, 'cept for the hit conversion thing". Im pretty disappointed - a stat that Ive always found pretty boring continues its crusade of lameness, in fact even upped the lame factor. From an Ele perspective.


Spirit used to be totally useless for elemental, and a healing priest/druid stat only. Mp5 was for paladins, and shamans. I don't know when you started playing this game, but that was the way gearing worked back in the old days. If you played both elemental and resto you carried a full elemental set, and a full resto set because only pieces with crit, haste, and mastery (and even then crit sucked for elemental) overlapped, and any gear you used with Mp5 was a complete waste for elemental, and depending on your gear level you wanted that Mp5 as resto.

So Blizzard removed Mp5 making all healers work around spirit, and made spirit a hit rating equivalent stat for elemental, spriests, and boomkins so that they could share gear for healing and DPS. It was definitely a good change, and spirit isn't supposed to be anything interesting for elemental. We're not balanced around mana (although I wish we had to manage mana somewhat. It might as well not exist for us the vast majority of the time in PvE) and instead are revolved around managing good flame shock uptime, lava surge tracking, and charge usage.

edit: Now that I recall, mastery was introduced in the cata pre-patch so only gear with just crit/haste could be used effectively for elemental, and again, crit sucked for elemental moreso than it does now.
Edited by Liax on 9/24/2012 10:36 AM PDT
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90 Orc Shaman
9350
Why isn't this a sticky yet?
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100 Troll Shaman
9525
Lava Burst likely won't even reach 40% of our damage even including overload/echo? Not sure where 50% is coming from here :<


From Beta Testing:

On the abilities shown portion of recount (and with a set-up including Elemental Blast and Echo), I definitely saw my damage against the target dummy while mostly wearing PVE gear approaching 50% of my damage (about 49.9% to be accurate). It depends on the amount of time within the fight, obviously, but when I test, I never go below three minutes (with only one push of the three minute cooldowns) and I often try to test for five to seven or so minutes at a time. I do tend to gear more for Mastery than Haste, and I am a Troll Herbalist and so I have access to some haste boosts during Ascendance (in addition to Echo procs).

The other damage, Fire Elemental and Searing Totem, usually accounts for around 7% to 9.5% of my total damage. Most of the tests have it closer to 7%. (Edit: I'm realizing that I forgot to take into consideration Earth Elemental damage -- another source of damage, albeit a trivial one)

In simple napkin math, if player damage is 93% and Lava Burst is 50% then Lava Burst accounts for 46.5% of the Shaman's overall damage. Even if it accounts for only 45% of the player based damage (and the totem damage remains 7%), it accounts for 42%. Finally, if it accounts for 45% of the damage done and the Totems kick it into high gear with 9.5% of the damage, Lava Burst would still account for 41%.

The only screenshot that I have to consult for testing numbers was from a LFR Terrace run, and the only log that was broken down was the first fight, a three target fight. Cleave damage is mostly pointless since the bosses reset, but there is that little part with the orb that needs to be DPSed down. Since the orb was near our target, I switched to Chain Lightning for those. There is also the issue of there being a final burn phase. For that reason, I delayed my Ascendance so as to time it with the third boss. That led to my Lava Burst damage being lower than normal. Nonetheless, it is a real fight with real data. Keep in mind that I was still learning the fight, it's a non-ideal fight (for the reasons listed above) and I'm not some expert player. These numbers should be higher.

In the Elders fight, as listed above, my Lava Burst was 39% (of player based damage), Lightning Bolt was 26.2%, Elemental Blast was 10.2%, Fulmination was 7.4%, Chain Lightning was 5.7%, Flame Shock (Dot) was 5.2%, Stormlash was 2.5%, Earth Shock was 2.0%, and anything else is unseen on the screenshot. I do not know how much damage my Searing and Elemental Totems contributed.

And yes, for those curious, my numbers during the fight were very competitive with the others at the top.

I do definitely think that a well-played, experienced Shaman in PVE gear will see their Lava Bursts' percentage of total damage go well over 40% in single target fights -- especially in fights when Ascendance can pretty much be used on cooldown -- and even moreso in fights with gaps in damage. You guys will have tons of real numbers to work with in the near future. I look forward to seeing the results. A cap of 40% of total damage attributed to Lava Burst seems like a low estimate overall.
Edited by Bosako on 9/24/2012 3:50 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
16690
On the abilities shown portion of recount (and with a set-up including Elemental Blast and Echo), I definitely saw my damage against the target dummy while mostly wearing PVE gear approaching 50% of my damage (about 49.9% to be accurate). It depends on the amount of time within the fight, obviously, but when I test, I never go below three minutes (with only one push of the three minute cooldowns) and I often try to test for five to seven or so minutes at a time. I do tend to gear more for Mastery than Haste, and I am a Troll Herbalist and so I have access to some haste boosts during Ascendance (in addition to Echo procs).


I need breakdowns that can be analyzed man. I believe ya, but if we're to have a hope of figuring out what's actually happening to cause these disparities we need to see those numbers. As you mentioned there'll be plenty of real world #s to work with soon.

09/24/2012 02:45 PMPosted by Bosako
Lava Burst would still account for 41%


Would be fairly close to the 37.7% simcraft is getting. Close enough to fall within the margin of error on a single 5-minute test.

In the Elders fight, as listed above, my Lava Burst was 39% (of player based damage), Lightning Bolt was 26.2%, Elemental Blast was 10.2%, Fulmination was 7.4%, Chain Lightning was 5.7%, Flame Shock (Dot) was 5.2%, Stormlash was 2.5%, Earth Shock was 2.0%, and anything else is unseen on the screenshot. I do not know how much damage my Searing and Elemental Totems contributed.


Something else accounted for 1.8% of your damage in that breakdown. Depending on the fight that could be just the FS (Direct) & possibly UE.

The #s on everything else (primarily LB) would pop up slightly without CL & then everything would pop down when accounting for totems, which'd correspond fairly closely with the #s out of simcraft.

09/24/2012 02:45 PMPosted by Bosako
I do definitely think that a well-played, experienced Shaman in PVE gear will see their Lava Bursts' percentage of total damage go well over 40% in single target fights -- especially in fights when Ascendance can pretty much be used on cooldown -- and even moreso in fights with gaps in damage.


Or when there's a period of increased damage that you line up with Ascendance or if you get an abnormally large amount of Lava Surge procs. 40% on a patchwork fight in T14H gear would be a high estimate by the numbers we have at the moment though, which was the point I was trying to make in the portion you quoted.
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90 Tauren Shaman
14085
What about multidotting flame shock? Since lava surge makes lava bust instant cast now should elemental try to keep flame shock on 2, 3 targets? Example: madness of deathwing arm/wing tentacle and mutated corruption. Would it only be worth it if the target is living more than the whole duration of flame shock? Would that create a mana problem? More flame shock casts, more GCD from lava bursts less lightning bolts?
Edited by Aghator on 9/24/2012 4:15 PM PDT
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