Moira and the Dark Irons

75 Dwarf Warrior
1425
So I been wonderin'......why exactly 'ave we let Moira be a part of anything other than a public execution? I mean, yea, she is the daughter of King Magni and we dwarves can be big on our traditions and stubborn a bull; but I we'd've figure out that we'd be better off without the Dark Irons or Moira havin' a say in anything other than what they want on their tombstone.

I mean lets look at Moira alone:

- Abandoned her throne and position to run off with the Dark Irons
- Nearly started a second dwarven civil war
- Consorts with demons/evil elementals
- Sedition
- Spying
- Hostage taking; hostage taking of members of the Stormwind royal family
- Threats against the Stormwind Royal family
- Support of/refusal to do anything about her new clans "Aggression"
- Rudeness

I mean, thats' a rap sheet nearly as long as my beard! Not to mention the fact that the first thing her clan did upon becoming part of the Council of Three Hammers was engage in sabotage and destruction of vital military and civilian property, including those of allies in the Alliance, subterfuge and attempted assassination, and practically open warfare with the Bronzebeards and Wildhammer clans!

She might be royal blood....but after all this, I don't royal blood is an excuse anymore.

While I know King Magni is no longer around to intimidate the Dark Irons into submission, me thinks that even the most stubborn Bronzebeards and Wildhammers would realize that they would be better off if they split the leadership between the two of them and toss Moira out on her Dark Iron behind and tell the Dark Irons to sod off again - or even finally deal with the demon worshipping, slaves the very things that seek to destroy us traitors.

Its not like the Alliance wouldn't help; King Wrynn would almost certainly love a chance to break his foot off in Moira's backside for threatening and taking his son hostage.
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90 Dwarf Warrior
6945


I mean lets look at Moira alone:

- Abandoned her throne and position to run off with the Dark Irons
- Nearly started a second dwarven civil war
- Consorts with demons/evil elementals
- Sedition
- Spying
- Hostage taking; hostage taking of members of the Stormwind royal family
- Threats against the Stormwind Royal family
- Support of/refusal to do anything about her new clans "Aggression"
- Rudeness



First off, I don't believe Moira has ever consorted with demons. She may have indirectly consorted with Ragnaros, but that's as far as "consorting with evil elementals go."

Secondly, it was shown in the quest-chain that it was an Old God-worshipping senator who issued the attack on the Airfield, not Moira.

Lastly, Being rude is not a crime, it makes you look like a jerk, but if the biggest !@#$%^- in god's green earth is the greatest leader in human history, I'd back him without second thought.

I may be alone in this, but I think the Council of Three Hammers is a good thing. I have high hopes for Dragan jr., but I have higher hopes for his heir if he marries into Wildhammer royalty.
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100 Dwarf Warrior
18175
I mean, yea, she is the daughter of King Magni and we dwarves can be big on our traditions and stubborn a bull...
That's most of it.
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85 Troll Rogue
4665
I really don't understand how Moira has more right to the throne than Muradin or Brann being a woman.
Edited by Sgtcrispy on 9/23/2012 3:35 PM PDT
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90 Dwarf Priest
0
she's a good character, let her take her place and cross your fingers that blizzard doesn't ruin her.
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86 Undead Death Knight
3690
09/23/2012 03:35 PMPosted by Sgtcrispy
I really don't understand how Moira has more right to the throne than Muradin or Brann being a woman.


She is the only child of Magni and it appears that the throne goes to eldest child regardless of gender.
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100 Tauren Druid
8635
09/23/2012 03:35 PMPosted by Sgtcrispy
I really don't understand how Moira has more right to the throne than Muradin or Brann being a woman.


In most succession situations a brother would come next in line if the departed King had no heirs. Obviously in this case that didn't happen.
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100 Dwarf Warrior
18175
09/23/2012 03:35 PMPosted by Sgtcrispy
I really don't understand how Moira has more right to the throne than Muradin or Brann being a woman.
Daughter of the king still trumps brother of the king.
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09/23/2012 04:46 PMPosted by Vegdrasil
I really don't understand how Moira has more right to the throne than Muradin or Brann being a woman.
Daughter of the king still trumps brother of the king.


That depends.

In some monarchies, you have only the ruling family and his offspring. Usually, it favors males, so after Magni, Moira would rule as queen. If she had a brother, regardless of age, he would come before her. Some lines favor only sons and grandsons, in which case Moira could only be a regent to her son until he comes of age

The alternative is strictly fraternal monarchy, where the crown must pass to the next legitimate male heir. Usually this is a son, or grandson if he is of age. In this case, the oldest, of age male Bronzebeard is Muradin. Brann would follow him, and then little Dagran would become King, with Moira as regent until he is of age
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100 Undead Warlock
16000
09/23/2012 03:35 PMPosted by Sgtcrispy
I really don't understand how Moira has more right to the throne than Muradin or Brann being a woman.


Its because she is the only offspring of the King and she has a son. Her claim to the throne is that because her son is a direct descendant of the former king, then he has the right to be King.

Her power in that situation comes from the fact her son is an infant and cannot truly rule yet, so she would be the Reagent Queen or something, similar to how Onxyia was in power when Anduin was in charge of Stormwind.

She gets to be on the Council because she is also the Queen of the Dark Iron Dwarves since she is the widow of their King and her son is not old enough to rule.

Only reason she is alive still is because Anduin convinced Varian not to kill her, which he agreed to in exchange to the formation of the Council of Three Hammers.
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100 Blood Elf Death Knight
11080
In all honesty, I appreciate Moria as a villain. Why?

Everything she's done is entirely borne of her.

No corruption. She's not possessed, she's not undead, she's not mind controlled - no one magically magiced her evil. Everything she did and does is entirely her doing, her motivation, and Princess Moria being Princess Moria.

In this sense, she's a breath of fresh air. She neither has nor makes excuses. She's the perfect example that sometimes people - not demons, not dark spirits, not ancient tentacle beasts - but PEOPLE by default are evil, and can make for as destructive and diabolical an enemy as any of the aforementioned. Really, what Villain can say that?

The Old Horde was corrupted by demons, the Scourge are all undead (also demonic by proxy), the Twilights, Deathwing and Naga are all corrupted by the Old Gods... Sure, you may have some villains who START as villains in their own right, like Azshara, but more often than not they wind up soul deep in powers that would have made them evil even if they weren't evil to begin with.

Moria? She's just an evil b*tch. Honestly? I'd love to see her team up with Magotha.
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100 Human Mage
17890
Everything she's done is entirely borne of her.

No corruption. She's not possessed, she's not undead, she's not mind controlled - no one magically magiced her evil. Everything she did and does is entirely her doing, her motivation, and Princess Moria being Princess Moria.


Not unlike Garrosh, I think.
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100 Blood Elf Death Knight
11080
True - for now. I fear Garrosh's "corruption", may turn out to be external in the long run, or he ends up consorting with things that would corrupt him after the fact regardless.

I really do hope he ends up shouldering ALL the blame himself by the end of this, though, without ANY sort of excuses as to being "made" to do it like every other villain for the last... ever.
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100 Dwarf Warrior
18175
09/23/2012 06:49 PMPosted by Aurriastraza
Daughter of the king still trumps brother of the king.


That depends.

In some monarchies, you have only the ruling family and his offspring. Usually, it favors males, so after Magni, Moira would rule as queen. If she had a brother, regardless of age, he would come before her. Some lines favor only sons and grandsons, in which case Moira could only be a regent to her son until he comes of age

The alternative is strictly fraternal monarchy, where the crown must pass to the next legitimate male heir. Usually this is a son, or grandson if he is of age. In this case, the oldest, of age male Bronzebeard is Muradin. Brann would follow him, and then little Dagran would become King, with Moira as regent until he is of age
Well, in terms of the dwarven monarchy, at least, it seems daughter of the king trumps brother of the king.
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So it seems, Vegdrasil. They even had the Book of Law toted out and examined, and the dwarves determined that she was the most viable candidate
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75 Dwarf Warrior
1425
09/24/2012 05:24 AMPosted by Aurriastraza
So it seems, Vegdrasil. They even had the Book of Law toted out and examined, and the dwarves determined that she was the most viable candidate


I'm kind of surprised that the Book of Law didn't have a provision for traitors/allies of traitors/threats against allies of the dwarves.

I wouldn't be surprised if Dragan Jr. turns out to be our own little Joffery......
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7 Blood Elf Priest
0
09/23/2012 10:04 PMPosted by Dryker
I really do hope he ends up shouldering ALL the blame himself by the end of this, though, without ANY sort of excuses as to being "made" to do it like every other villain for the last... ever.


But if that's the case, however will we excuse those poor, misunderstood orcs for all the terrible crimes they have committed/will commit for Garrosh?
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100 Dwarf Warrior
18175
09/24/2012 02:01 PMPosted by Baliun
So it seems, Vegdrasil. They even had the Book of Law toted out and examined, and the dwarves determined that she was the most viable candidate


I'm kind of surprised that the Book of Law didn't have a provision for traitors/allies of traitors/threats against allies of the dwarves.
Magni never actually disowned her when he found out.
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09/24/2012 04:29 PMPosted by Vegdrasil


I'm kind of surprised that the Book of Law didn't have a provision for traitors/allies of traitors/threats against allies of the dwarves.
Magni never actually disowned her when he found out.
Correct. Only her son.

Of course, wasn't that seen his nightmare?
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90 Troll Shaman
12650
How can you say such things, this is why alliance hardcore's bug me. You where given one of the coolest leaders ever. A leader who has accomplished something huge for her people on par with Thrall freeing his people from the camps.

She united them.

- Abandoned her throne and position to run off with the Dark Irons
- Nearly started a second dwarven civil war
- Consorts with demons/evil elementals
- Sedition
- Spying
- Hostage taking; hostage taking of members of the Stormwind royal family
- Threats against the Stormwind Royal family
- Support of/refusal to do anything about her new clans "Aggression"
- Rudeness


-Okay one she did not abandon her throne, she was kidnapped, after a rescue party went in and slaughtered the thane of the Dark Irons she became the leader of Blackrock, until her son came of age. Now when Magni turned to diamond she inherited another kingdom until her son came of age, and now thanks to her instead of killing each other Dark Irons and Ironforge Dwarfs work together.

- consorts with demons/evil elements when? citation needed

-sedition as the ruling power, her word is law, and she also fallowed the lore and tradition of the dwarf people.

-Spying, spying is not evil so this is a moot point,

-Treats against the Stormwind ruling family, she did not threaten Audin once and treated him kindly except for not letting him leave, he was a bargaining chip, she needed him safe to keep the Alliance at bay, good call to as when the King did show up he almost started a war with the dwarfs good thing his son is so level headed

- Support of/refusal to do anything about her new clans "Aggression", the best part of the dwarf starting zone is when she arrests the dark Iron ambassador responsible for the Dark Iron attack on Ironforge so she directly opposed Dark Iron Aggression

-Rudeness, Bite me
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