Mages have no counterplay in PvP

1 Night Elf Rogue
0
Mages are completely bad for PvP. Their only weakness is that if there's a dispeller, then a lot of their CC's are dispelled, or if there are Offensive dispells then their Absorbs get removed easily. The problem with this is that it's not a weakness inherent to just mages, but to all classes.

In a world where you are making dispells being a meaningful choice, the only way to really shut down to mage is to use dispell's and such on cooldowns, which actually makes Mages more powerful since these sorts of abilities cannot be liberally spammed like they could and do cost a meaningful amount of mana. Yet Mages have spell steal and they don't seem to run out of mana.

Mages have no counter-play, meaning there's no weakness for other classes to exploit, because mages have the 4 pillars of a successful PvP class in excess. There's no specific glaring weakness that a mage possesses.

Mages have a excess amount of:

Control
Damage
Mobility
Survivability

Something has got to give. You can't give a class all of these things and not have glaring weaknesses. What makes me upset, is that blizzard hasn't came out and spoken about this. From this players point of view, it looks like they think mages are fine, and so aren't taking action. Which is dead wrong.
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85 Tauren Hunter
8670
Im pretty sure mages have had massive control, damage, mobility and survivability since vanilla :O
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1 Dwarf Hunter
0
09/21/2012 08:41 PMPosted by Ziago
Im pretty sure mages have had massive control, damage, mobility and survivability since vanilla :O


I know, and they've always been pretty powerful because of it. They need to lose something.
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90 Night Elf Priest
9545
They have also always been the squishiest class when caught with their pants... i mean cooldowns down.

You say they have no counter-play, then immediately mention dispels... that kind of is their counter-play, and most classes have access to one or both dispels. Silences hurt them, and classes with spammable cc like slows, or fears.

Play a mage, learn what hurts, then go back to your main and do that thing that hurts them most, bingo, you start winning vs mages more.
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85 Blood Elf Mage
0
09/21/2012 08:41 PMPosted by Ziago
Im pretty sure mages have had massive control, damage, mobility and survivability since vanilla


Not even close to this degree. In particular, the MoP mage has defenses that vastly outstrip any previous version's, all while retaining their superior mobility, control and burst damage. Something has to give.

09/23/2012 10:20 AMPosted by Biliboy
They have also always been the squishiest class when caught with their pants... i mean cooldowns down.


No longer true. Would actually go to warlocks in MoP.
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90 Draenei Hunter
12990
They have also always been the squishiest class when caught with their pants... i mean cooldowns down.

You say they have no counter-play, then immediately mention dispels... that kind of is their counter-play, and most classes have access to one or both dispels. Silences hurt them, and classes with spammable cc like slows, or fears.

Play a mage, learn what hurts, then go back to your main and do that thing that hurts them most, bingo, you start winning vs mages more.
Dispels hurt EVERYONE, so the point is pretty much moot. It's like saying they're useless at 0% HP, because everyone is.

How many other classes can hold someone completely at bay for over 25 seconds? Hell, that CC chain goes to what, 20 seconds if you trinket something?
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
20555
if even one thing had to be nerfed for mages, i would say just nerf there shields/absorb abilities.

i was doing some Lving on my mage the other day in northrend, and saw a warlock. he blew every CD he had ( snot rock, that shield wall thing where he gets all the horns and purple all over him, the immunity dark bargain, pet silence, dark regen, shadowfury list goes on ), and i just cheesed him. i just spewed dmg into him, it wasnt even a fair fight. i agree that mages just plain have too much now.
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09/21/2012 08:41 PMPosted by Ziago
Im pretty sure mages have had massive control, damage, mobility and survivability since vanilla :O


Wow, you obviously have very limited scale in knowing what you are talking about. S1-4 mages were the lowest represented class in arena. If you were a mage and did well, it is because you played on a 5s team that ran 2-3-4-5.

It wasn't until S5 that mages became the apple of everyones eyes for pvp. I am far to lazy on a Sunday night to find the data, but I am sure you can locate somewhere the class representation for the first 5 seasons.
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You didn't really see mages much in TBC outside of the requisite, timeless RMP, or some niche 5's, or very early on in the xpac when 2 mages would enter 2v2 and just pompyro stuff.

They're countered hard by any kind of dispels, defensive or otherwise. Problem right now is their huge burst with Frost Bomb and/or pyro proc spam from fire mages. Nerf those in a way that doesn't affect PVE damage--perhaps convert more of the damage from direct up-front burst to a lingering dot--and it'd help a lot.
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90 Human Hunter
7425
Wrong.
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90 Undead Rogue
5450
Ice barrier is too strong, they can recast it every 25 seconds and it lasts a minute, if you dont have dispells then you have to burst it down only to have another one put back up. that is while you are struggling through all the other "outs" mages have.

for as much survivability a mage has, ice barrier should be a 1 minute cooldown. I should not have burst through 2 bubbles because my class lacks any way to dispel.

you wanna keep it 25 second cooldown? fine lower the absorption amount then. its too damned strong. It's far worse than nether protection was for locks and that got nerfed because mages cried about it, and it only absorbed part of the damage!
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100 Human Paladin
15850
Agreed.
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Much like the Terran Marine, the only cost effective counter IS *drumroll* itself.
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100 Goblin Warlock
18265
09/23/2012 07:46 PMPosted by Ghozar
Much like the Terran Marine, the only cost effective counter IS *drumroll* itself.


Ele shaman
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85 Human Mage
12525
The only weakness I can think of for a mage is when I'm facing an offensive dispeller. Then my health goes down the drain very quickly. If I'm not facing anyone like that, regardless of spec, they just seem to die. And I don't even need to put much effort into it unless they're a hunter.

Melee = Kite with scorch and slowing/cc abilities
Casters = Mage armor and lol
Hunter = You actually need to try and be smart, Even then I still have a good shot of beating them.
Offensive dispeller class (Enhance/ele shammy, Spriest) = Just blow them up before they do too much damage, which is easy in a deep freeze.

IMO either Deep Freeze, which is the core of mage burst, needs to go, Scorch needs to go, or Ice barrier needs a nerf to not be so much better than the other options, Temporal Shield and Blazing Speed.

Could just make [Ice Barrier] [Mana Shield] instead. More mobs in WC3 had Mana Shield than Ice Barrier.

If I absolutely had to put what class besides another mage is the hardest one to fight, I'd say Enhance shammy. Then Hunter, then ele shammy, then everyone else.

I should try PvPing as Arcane. Might actually be a challenge due to not having an instant pyro every 8 seconds.
Edited by Archmagemc on 9/23/2012 9:51 PM PDT
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90 Undead Rogue
5450
basically if you cannot dispell. your dead.
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85 Human Mage
12525
09/23/2012 09:51 PMPosted by Midievil
basically if you cannot dispell. your dead.


This X infinity.

Turning Ice Barrier into Mana Shield at a rate of 2 mana per 1 health with MoP mana pools being how they are would be a very interesting nerf to mages. Make them the thinking class again instead of the push buttons and blow people up class.
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