Who is helped by nerfed raids?

85 Orc Warrior
6140
So after countless months browsing forums and learning about the wow community I decided to post a thread dedicated to the topic I see posted most often. Nerfs.

I read countless posts that argue for one side or another when it comes to nerfing raids. There are many players who beg for nerfed raids on the grounds that they are not good enough and never will be good enough to down content while it is current. There are also many players who beg for raids not to be nerfed because they want to feel accomplished when they kill a boss.

A few days ago I read a post by someone and it said something like only 18% of raiders have done 8/8H DS at 35% nerf. I know that on my server there are about 15 guilds that are 8/8H with, prior to this patch, never having more than 1 or 2 guilds kill the last boss in a tier. From talking to the people I have had mixed feedback. Some are happy to clear a tier, but it seems most feel like they were cheated out of something better. Personally the guild I was in during Firelands killed H rag the night it was first nerfed, along with 27 other guilds, essentially slapping them all in the face for doing 500 pulls beforehand.

So what I would like to see in reply here is to just explain to me who is helped by nerfed raids? If 82% of raiders still do not clear the content at 35% nerf then is it helping them or is it hurting the maybe 10% that would have eventually downed the content without a nerf. (exception of course being the nerf to spine)

I am just curious to see some thoughts on this.

Oh and one last thing, since another complaint I see quite often is that DS overstayed it's welcome. I think it is very possible Blizz could have got at least 3-4 more months out of it with out nerfs. So anyway please tell me what you think.
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100 Tauren Druid
8425
So what I would like to see in reply here is to just explain to me who is helped by nerfed raids? If 82% of raiders still do not clear the content at 35% nerf then is it helping them or is it hurting the maybe 10% that would have eventually downed the content without a nerf. (exception of course being the nerf to spine)


The only thing that's hurt is your ego.

09/22/2012 02:57 PMPosted by Mizerballin
Personally the guild I was in during Firelands killed H rag the night it was first nerfed, along with 27 other guilds, essentially slapping them all in the face for doing 500 pulls beforehand.


If you hadn't done those 500 pulls beforehand you wouldn't have been able to kill H Ragnaros that night. People love to conveniently forget that they had to learn how to do the fight first.

Back when my guild first started running H Rag for Firehawks a few months ago it was really sketchy when it came to bringing him down, but after about a month of actually downing him he started going down without any major problems anymore. When he got nerfed this last patch he went down even faster. He only goes down that fast because we know the fight like the back of our hands now.
Edited by Seiryu on 9/22/2012 3:13 PM PDT
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09/22/2012 03:10 PMPosted by Seiryu
If you hadn't done those 500 pulls beforehand you wouldn't have been able to kill H Ragnaros that night. People love to conveniently forget that they had to learn how to do the fight first.


But they would of killed it in 100 pulls or less instead.

Similar to how C'thun was killed hours after it was nerfed, because guilds had practiced the impossible version, so when it was fixed, it would be a simple repeat kill, but still a world first.
Edited by Asane on 9/22/2012 3:13 PM PDT
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100 Tauren Druid
8425
09/22/2012 03:13 PMPosted by Asane
But they would of killed it in 100 pulls or less instead.


Which, if you only started after he was nerfed, you'd probably get him down maybe three weeks later than if you worked on him pre-nerf.
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85 Human Paladin
11570
nerfs help the..."xbox community". playrs who play a month, put it down, move on.
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50 Worgen Rogue
250
There is no real mystery to it. Nerfs are put in place at the end so that more people would experience things with an attempt to be tailored to themselves and those that they're able to do it with. Some people are not as lucky as others. Nerfed or not, once people reach level 90+, it's inevitable that some will go back and try again as well as people who joined the game after the content was released.

I would agree that DS was dragged out a little too long. I wouldn't have been opposed to a small raid at the end like they did in WotLK with Ruby Sanctum. Just a little something to hold us off until the next expansion was ready. I can see from the designer's perspective that it's difficult to time things like that. You can see how the community pans out after content is altered to try and allow a broader array of players completing it but it's a matter of opinion on how fast "nerfs" go about.
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85 Orc Warrior
6140
09/22/2012 03:10 PMPosted by Seiryu
If you hadn't done those 500 pulls beforehand you wouldn't have been able to kill H Ragnaros that night. People love to conveniently forget that they had to learn how to do the fight first.


Its not that people forget they had to learn the fight, its that they feel cheated out of something that they were so close to and it got ripped away.
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85 Orc Warrior
6140
There is no real mystery to it. Nerfs are put in place at the end so that more people would experience things with an attempt to be tailored to themselves and those that they're able to do it with. Some people are not as lucky as others. Nerfed or not, once people reach level 90+, it's inevitable that some will go back and try again as well as people who joined the game after the content was released.


I just want to point this out because you said at the end. DS release 11/29/11, 5% nerf 1/31/12. This is 9 lockouts the people were give the effectively clear normal and heroic before they are apparently "too bad" to complete it. And yet the tier lasted for 9 more months. How is that incorporating nerfs at the end?

Edit: Fixed to 11/29
Edited by Mizerballin on 9/22/2012 4:53 PM PDT
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50 Worgen Rogue
250
As you stated, the raid was out for 4 months before any nerfs were put into place. There were some who were very close and that extra edge gave them the satisfaction of completion that they needed. I'm sure Blizzard monitored the statistics to determine when they felt an increase was necessary. Even though the "nerfs" were done in different ways, Blizzard did go as far as 35% for DS versus 30% for ICC towards the end of the expansion. They surely won't incorporate such nerfs right off the bat.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
As you stated, the raid was out for 4 months before any nerfs were put into place.


9 lockouts != 4 months. The raid was out on 29th November - the OP slipped and put that down at 9 instead of 11. Heroic mode was not available until the 6th(?) of December.

I'm sure Blizzard monitored the statistics to determine when they felt an increase was necessary. Even though the "nerfs" were done in different ways, Blizzard did go as far as 35% for DS versus 30% for ICC towards the end of the expansion. They surely won't incorporate such nerfs right off the bat.


Supposedly their justification in terms of what they monitored involved things like "How many new kills are happening" and "Is the rate of activity going up after we nerf it".

The thing about those numbers is that there's no context where it won't be self-justifying.
Edited by Slashlove on 9/22/2012 4:20 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
14475
It helped me, the guild was able to progress through and clear it (at 25% eventually); without nerfs then membership may have dropped off while we were working on Hag, or Blackhorn. It was very hard to keep people interested in the game being so long since the last content patch; and if there's been a few weeks of wiping then some people stop coming back.
Edited by Lusignan on 9/22/2012 4:34 PM PDT
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50 Worgen Rogue
250
Supposedly their justification in terms of what they monitored involved things like "How many new kills are happening" and "Is the rate of activity going up after we nerf it".

The thing about those numbers is that there's no context where it won't be self-justifying.


For all I know, someone wanted as many to complete it as possible before the expansion was officially over without getting too ridiculous about it like making a 50%+ nerf (which probably wouldn't surprise me any).
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The playerbase is pretty consistent, that the nerfs happened consistently, outside 1 outlier in order to throw everyone off, then the 35% was coded with 5.0 conveniently.
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100 Human Paladin
21680
Blizzard can no longer justify nerfs by saying it's to let people see the content. They exist only to keep people subbed the full length of the tier.

T14 will probably be my last raiding tier. The nerfs take out any fun to be had, my normal mode Morchock kill the first day was more satisfying than my heroic Madness kill 2 weeks ago where the bolt landed on the first platform with 5 people at the impact point and didn't kill anyone, 6 bloods made it to his chin in phase 2, he still died anyway.
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100 Tauren Druid
8425
09/22/2012 08:45 PMPosted by Illifra
Blizzard can no longer justify nerfs by saying it's to let people see the content.


Your first Madness kill was 2 weeks ago. It seems to have worked for you.
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100 Human Paladin
21680
09/22/2012 10:52 PMPosted by Seiryu
Blizzard can no longer justify nerfs by saying it's to let people see the content.


Your first Madness kill was 2 weeks ago. It seems to have worked for you.


LFR is to let people see the content. They couldn't follow through on "smaller raids, more often," so the progressive nerf was the only way to keep people subbed until MoP. I spent most of the tier achievement grinding, guild needed a tank, so I tagged along. I would have rather stayed at 1/8H without nerfs honestly. There was nothing fun about progressing with the nerf on. It gets to a certain point where you either faceroll the boss with the nerf on, or wipe without the nerf in the first 30 seconds. Some choice.
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
18230
09/23/2012 09:55 AMPosted by Illifra
LFR is to let people see the content


It was, until people cried so many rivers of tears that they made it an afk grind welfare office for ORANGES.
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90 Human Paladin
16345
The fireland nerf made 6/7H far too easy and hurted my enjoyment of the instance; the DS nerf helped my enjoyment of the instance because it "tuned" the fight to be more appropriate to my skill level by the time I got to it.

09/23/2012 10:28 AMPosted by Nourii
I'd rather be 3/8h with no nerfs than 8/8 because of the nerf.


Depend on people i guess... I'd rather all fights take my guild 50-100 attempts for first kill... fights that take over 100 attempts (H-Rag, 0% H-Cows/Spine/Madness... etc.) are too difficult. Fights that took 1 raiding night (ie: post nerf 6/7 H-Fireland) were too easy... If they achieve those difficulties by nerfing, more power for them.

I play the game for fun. I'd rather learn H-Cow with 5% nerf than learning it without nerf (too hard) or with 30% nerf (too easy)...
Edited by Emmey on 9/23/2012 10:53 AM PDT
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100 Troll Hunter
12185
09/22/2012 03:13 PMPosted by Asane
Similar to how C'thun was killed hours after it was nerfed


Fixed, not nerfed. He was impossible, in the literal sense of the word, outside of a bug/exploit - can't remember which.
Edited by Naumu on 9/23/2012 11:07 AM PDT
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