Who is helped by nerfed raids?

90 Human Paladin
20020
09/23/2012 01:43 PMPosted by Sarosha
There is a FOS for turning it off now, so there are bragging rights to be had.


It's only for the end bosses, and it's only for heroic mode. The other 13 bosses will always be killed with the nerf on, as there is no incentive to turn it off.

Less than 2,000 guilds will get those FoS. Don't get me wrong, that's a good thing. Achievements of those caliber should only be handed out the guilds that know what they're doing. Even then, most of those guilds will get it after months of farming gear with the nerf on.

However, that leaves the next 25,000 guilds that are more than capable of clearing 16/16 normal mode pre nerf no reason what so ever to turn the nerf off. The FoS for defeating the Will of the Emperor, Shek'zeer, and Sha of Fear on heroic without the nerf is completely out of reach for most guilds. This will be the third raiding tier with "optional" progressive nerfs, yet they still haven't given people a reason to turn it off.

They need to do better than that, those FoS are a step in the right direction. But there's needs to be something for normal mode as well (with an item level requirement for no heroic gear, of course). Because these nerfs are simply to kill bosses for guilds so they don't quit until the next content patch, I see no reason to award titles and mounts when the nerf is on.

Does that not make everyone happy? People who want to see the content and gear their toon can do so, but don't expect to go flaunting those shiny new titles and "Glory of the ____ Raider" mounts in the city. If you just wanted to see the content, then that shouldn't bother you. And it's not to inflate my internet ego, I will be lucky to kill heroic Stone Guard before the nerfs, let alone 16/16 heroic.
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90 Undead Mage
10315
09/23/2012 01:51 PMPosted by Jorahlol
thats exactly what i was replying to


But your reply basically ignores what he expressed in that quote.

Like entirely.

Chopping your foot off does not make a race more fun. When changing the difficulty adds nothing to how fun the content is, what's the point?

He says difficulty needs to be fun and engaging and you're just like "hurrdurrr be a man and turn the buff off." That's...just silly. You're actually arguing AGAINST fun and engaging content because a nerf can be turned off.

Really?
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85 Human Paladin
11570
raiding without the stacking buff/nerf is like raiding without enchants. We either do verything to minmax or we don't.

we don't raid without Might and Kings, why'd we raid without Power of Aspects. It makes no sense.
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90 Dwarf Death Knight
16855
In b4 People quote Blue posters (The guys who lose 3 million subs, a world record for an MMO) to prove that "turning the buff off is fun", WHOA I sounded like a D3 CM with that "We don't think fun is fun"
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90 Tauren Warrior
0
09/23/2012 02:45 PMPosted by Postonforums
In b4 People quote Blue posters (The guys who lose 3 million subs, a world record for an MMO) to prove that "turning the buff off is fun", WHOA I sounded like a D3 CM with that "We don't think fun is fun"


They're losing subs cus the content was terrible. Which i s why i haven't done any raids in 4 months.
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90 Human Warrior
16790
09/23/2012 02:50 PMPosted by Jorahlol
They're losing subs cus the content was terrible. Which i s why i haven't done any raids in 4 months.


Which serves to prove that nerfing awful content doesn't suddenly make it good, even for casual players.

So there's very little point.
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90 Tauren Druid
7190
09/23/2012 02:50 PMPosted by Jorahlol
Which i s why i haven't done any raids in 4 months.


Says you killed Warmaster Blackhorn 2 months ago.
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90 Human Paladin
aus
18580
09/22/2012 08:45 PMPosted by Illifra
Blizzard can no longer justify nerfs by saying it's to let people see the content. They exist only to keep people subbed the full length of the tier.


Well duh.

If blizzard brought out new content every 6 months and balanced the content appropriately in the first place their would not be any need for blanket nerfs.

09/23/2012 10:28 AMPosted by Nourii
I'd rather be 3/8h with no nerfs than 8/8 because of the nerf. It has absolutely nothing to do with seeing content, since everyone can see the content through LFR.


I would rather be 8/8h with nerfs then not raiding at all because people got too frustrated at wiping to 3/8 heroic for 6 months,.
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85 Human Paladin
11570

I would rather be 8/8h with nerfs then not raiding at all because people got too frustrated at wiping to 3/8 heroic for 6 months,.


I envision a world in which people don't expect to be hm 8/8 in a few weeks and as such don't get fustrated for wiping at HM 3/8...but rather keep trying and slowly progressing at their own pace, enjoying the game at their level and being aware of their limitations.

I wonder how e can reach this world:

1) by creating the opportunity for thi world to exist.
2) by nerfing everything so everyone is hm 8/8.

I'm trying to wrap my head around what'd happen if the ... common whiners would have one day found themselves 5/6 SSC standing in front of lady vashj...what would their tears look like?
Edited by Robokapp on 9/23/2012 8:21 PM PDT
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90 Troll Rogue
14790
09/23/2012 08:16 PMPosted by Mate
I would rather be 8/8h with nerfs then not raiding at all because people got too frustrated at wiping to 3/8 heroic for 6 months,.


If the 3/8 heroic fights were fun and engaging and progression felt rewarding throughout the whole tier I could do that, I enjoyed T11 even though we only finished the tier at about 8/13 heroic even with having to replace half of my raid team and carrying some bad players.

Am i a Masochist? I don't think so, I just enjoy a sense of progression and something to aim for, it feels weird to have the same gear and achievements as the best players in the world whose level of commitment and skill are miles ahead of anything I could hope to achieve.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
0
09/23/2012 02:14 PMPosted by Postonforums
. You'll notice there's no "No nerf" guilds


^

not a single one. Which kind of sucks, i was totally going to take Draztal up on that "if you don't like your guild maybe you should quit" thing.

Unless you can show me a way to find 9/24 other people and actually get them together in a raid with it off, i'm going to say it's not possible.

What happened to the generation of gamers who just did things for the hell of it or challenged themselves just to see if they could do it?


I don't do it when challenging myself to see if i could do it isn't fun.

Also, i can't play 10 accounts at once. I didn't need to beat 10 zeldas at once.

09/23/2012 02:50 PMPosted by Jorahlol
They're losing subs cus the content was terrible. Which i s why i haven't done any raids in 4 months.


So by your own admission not being hard != not being fun.

If it was just the challenge, you'd take gear off and have fun raiding DS, which was an awful raid.

Why is it not allowed to ask for fun/interesting, and challenging (which done right can be fun itself)? Why do we have to pick one?

good content requires both.
Edited by Arianity on 9/23/2012 8:56 PM PDT
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90 Undead Mage
10315
09/23/2012 08:21 PMPosted by Robokapp
what would their tears look like?


Vash'jir.
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87 Draenei Priest
12630
09/23/2012 08:21 PMPosted by Robokapp
I'm trying to wrap my head around what'd happen if the ... common whiners would have one day found themselves 5/6 SSC standing in front of lady vashj...what would their tears look like?


This did happen, they tried to blame it on getting poached (when no one poached players without vials except other guilds stuck on those 2 bosses) so hard that they had to remove attunements so guilds could just hop to T6, which *shocker* actually led to a ridiculous amount of poaching at that level.
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85 Human Paladin
11570
I think the present 'baddie' generation far exceeds the 'baddies' of our generation...Afterall they needed to do a lot of raiding to get to 5/6 SSC. kara attunments -> nightbane + Gruul -> first 5 of ssc.
Edited by Robokapp on 9/23/2012 8:48 PM PDT
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60 Troll Hunter
11600
09/23/2012 08:48 PMPosted by Robokapp
I think the present 'baddie' generation far exceeds the 'baddies' of our generation...Afterall they needed to do a lot of raiding to get to 5/6 SSC. kara attunments -> nightbane + Gruul -> first 5 of ssc.


I don't care I don't ever want attunements back. I'm all for scaled difficultly later nerfs but FFS do not make me do an attunement ever a freaking gain
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85 Human Paladin
11570
you see, young one, it's perhaps for your own good not to end up face to face with ... let's say Atchimonde.

rule of thumb is...during this fight your baby will not fall on its head, the house will not be on fire, pizza won't be at your door an whatever your friend at the airport needs, it can wait 5 minutes.

atunments were mostly done at guild level...you were doing those raids anyway, you were doing those heroics anyway because they were the daily. if you can't complete black morass, maybe it's best you don't end up against a boss in kara...you'll jsut hurt yourself.

Sunwell had no attunment. ding 70, walk right in. maybe you'll kill the green robot, maybe you won't.
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90 Human Paladin
aus
18580
09/23/2012 08:21 PMPosted by Robokapp
I'm trying to wrap my head around what'd happen if the ... common whiners would have one day found themselves 5/6 SSC standing in front of lady vashj...what would their tears look like?


I read your first paragraph and immediately thought of t5. Personally it was just on 1 year for me from the first kill of a t5 boss to the first pull of a t6 boss and yes it took a guild change as well. Too many months beating our heads on a brick wall in ssc where people had stopped caring about making progression and eventually stopped caring about playing. But I beat both attunement nerfs by a few weeks.

A guild is not a person. So while the guild as a whole may be enjoying the challenge individuals may not. But while replacements can mostly(ie except for the death of 25 mans) be found they invariably cause a temporary set back in that progression. Eventually enough temporary set backs add up to no progression at all. T5 being the perfect example of this.
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
13570
On my realm- only 15 guilds are 8/8H as of 9/19, only 4 of those are horde.

I have raided hardcore in the past. It was alot of fun and alot of work lol. Now I raid with friends, who might not be the best raiders but we have alot of fun. We strive to down bosses and do a good job but the nerfs are great for us. We wouldn't have gotten 8/8H without them.

I don't care to be #1 at all. I play to have fun and kill stuff. I see it as most other games where you can set the difficulty level. I almost always play on easy or normal, while my husband will play on the hardest difficulty and sit there swearing at the screen lol.

People have different abilities. I do not see how me playing on easy hurts him playing it on hard.

Our raid team took so many hits this expansion. We started out really well and pushing neck and neck with our progression team. Then we had several of our core people just go poof. Maybe they died, maybe abducted by aliens, maybe they just quit playing out of the blue. But it sucked for us lol. We had a horrid time recruiting. It became a revolving door of people who were flaky or horribly bad. Us having to start back over with half a new team of people far undergeared and teaching them the strats. It sucked.

I consider us average players. We usually have some lower end dps but our players are smart and do not stand in the bad. If we could actually get a solid roster we would have progressed much nicer lol

I think most of the time people who need help are not the really bad players, it is the people who struggle with getting the right people, the right leadership, the solid team, or cover some gearing issues. Yes it can help you carry some people but you still have to learn the strat and apply it.

My dear friends guild has the absolute worse players I have ever seen in it. They raid fairly regularly, missing some weeks here and there but they have never been past 6/8 normal. And that was with outside help. This last week they wiped 7 times on normal ultraxion. The nerfs helped them get past 2/8 but couldn't help them clear it as it was a strat issue.

In the end, people who are awesome will clear it before the nerfs. Those who are really good and want to prove it can do so without using them. You can take pride in that.

I think if most video games only had hard mode alot less people would play them. Choice is beautiful :)
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