Who is helped by nerfed raids?

100 Human Paladin
16395
09/23/2012 08:53 PMPosted by Jilixx
I don't care I don't ever want attunements back. I'm all for scaled difficultly later nerfs but FFS do not make me do an attunement ever a freaking gain


Attunment would be fairly trivial nowaday with LFD/LFR; Kara attunment, if implemented with today's technology, will be doing a short quest chain, use LFD to queue for SL, SV, Arc, BM, and done... Hyjal Attunment will be like doing SSC/TK in LFR to get the 2 vials...

With all the frustration of attunment going away they should bring them back so they can give some slight introduction to the instance... The alliance Onyxia attunement felt fairly epic if not for the frustration of finding a group for Jail Break and some BRD quests...
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100 Human Paladin
16395
09/23/2012 08:28 PMPosted by Sabod
If the 3/8 heroic fights were fun and engaging and progression felt rewarding throughout the whole tier I could do that, I enjoyed T11 even though we only finished the tier at about 8/13 heroic even with having to replace half of my raid team and carrying some bad players.


So I assume half of your raid team didn't like it? The thing is that different people have different definition of a fun challenge level. You can't tune an encounter to expect everyone to be happy with the difficulty because people are different. Nerfing encounters over time would be a way to ensure an encounter suit a larger spectrum of players. Afterall, if T11 had a progressive nerf, maybe you'd only have to replace 1/4 of your raid team instead of 1/2...
Edited by Emmey on 9/23/2012 9:47 PM PDT
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85 Human Paladin
11570
On my realm- only 15 guilds are 8/8H as of 9/19, only 4 of those are horde.

I have raided hardcore in the past. It was alot of fun and alot of work lol. Now I raid with friends, who might not be the best raiders but we have alot of fun. We strive to down bosses and do a good job but the nerfs are great for us. We wouldn't have gotten 8/8H without them.

I don't care to be #1 at all. I play to have fun and kill stuff. I see it as most other games where you can set the difficulty level. I almost always play on easy or normal, while my husband will play on the hardest difficulty and sit there swearing at the screen lol.

People have different abilities. I do not see how me playing on easy hurts him playing it on hard.



I agree with you so far, but thanks to the difficulty split into normal/heroic that tier 8 introduced, this can already be achieved.

Nothing of what you said - which I agree with as I mentioned - justifies nerfing heroic mode. Quite the opposite, it stops him from sweating at the screen by nerfing heroic mode.

most raiders here don't mind normal mode nerfs. It's not their difficulty. It doesn't really concern them. it's when heroic nerfs happen that they get bothered.

if you want to choose a difficulty that isn't the highest, I have no objection with it being appropriate for you. if someone else is looking for that extra jalapeno in his raiding, it better sting...

I don't know of anyone who went to b-dubs and asked them to nerf the Blazing sauce so he can enjoy it. he just picks a milder sauce.
Edited by Robokapp on 9/23/2012 9:52 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Priest
0
09/23/2012 09:52 PMPosted by Robokapp
don't know of anyone who went to b-dubs and asked them to nerf the Blazing sauce so he can enjoy it. he just picks a milder sauce.


But then how does he enjoy all the content he pays for?

It's not fair if someone else gets Blazing sauce, and he can't because he has a life.
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100 Troll Rogue
17115
09/23/2012 09:46 PMPosted by Emmey
So I assume half of your raid team didn't like it? The thing is that different people have different definition of a fun challenge level. You can't tune an encounter to expect everyone to be happy with the difficulty because people are different. Nerfing encounters over time would be a way to ensure an encounter suit a larger spectrum of players. Afterall, if T11 had a progressive nerf, maybe you'd only have to replace 1/4 of your raid team instead of 1/2...


I don't have any problem with nerfs T11 had quite a few nerfs over the course of it before the blanket nerfs at the release of t12, alot if it was tuning encounters to make them more fair or bug fixing.

Attrition in T11 in my guild wasn't due to the content or difficulty it was due to people just needing a break from wow after consistently raiding since ulduar in my team, we didnt really get stuck on any normal bosses for an extended period.

Huge zone wide debuffs that affect everything, mean that you can completely ignore boss mechanics and turn dps and heal checks into are you at your keyboard checks aren't good for the game at all, neither is pushing people into heroic modes that don't really want to be there.
Edited by Sabod on 9/24/2012 3:14 AM PDT
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
18230
The more I think about it, the nerfs have only really helped the Wow-addicts who found a reason to quit with a 4-5 month "wait" period on new content assured.
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100 Human Paladin
aus
20645
most raiders here don't mind normal mode nerfs. It's not their difficulty. It doesn't really concern them. it's when heroic nerfs happen that they get bothered.

if you want to choose a difficulty that isn't the highest, I have no objection with it being appropriate for you. if someone else is looking for that extra jalapeno in his raiding, it better sting...


Guilds don't fall into neat little buckets Will clear normal, will clear heroic. Sorry your guild took 4 hours to clear normal toc 25 on the first week, if you where a real raiding guild you would have cleared it in 3 hours, no heroic raiding for you.

This does not mean I think the nerfs should be of the scale that everybody kills everything. We cleared t6, we cleared sunwell Post 3.0 but only 4 bosses prenerf, we cleared naxx and we did 10/12 icc pre 4.0, 11/12 post , we cleared heroic ds pre 5.0. Clearly the nerfs where too large. We sadly did not deserve that full extra jalepeno. But thats only a matter of how far the dial was turned, not if the dial should be turned at all.
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85 Human Paladin
11570
09/23/2012 11:40 PMPosted by Mate
we cleared sunwell Post 3.0


/big grin
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
7035
I'm the sort of player that does not care about self-improvement on World of Warcraft. I want to be able to mindlessly smash some keys for a couple of hours each week but I don't want to be stuck on the same boss week in week out. Progressive nerfs keep me progressing but doesn't force me to go fine tune my play in order to progress.

So yeah... nerfs help players like me =)

edit: Do not confuse my positive outlook on progressive nerfs to be advocacy for how horribly Blizzard handled Dragon Soul nerfing and tuning.
Edited by Kiarà on 9/24/2012 3:56 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Guilds don't fall into neat little buckets Will clear normal, will clear heroic. Sorry your guild took 4 hours to clear normal toc 25 on the first week, if you where a real raiding guild you would have cleared it in 3 hours, no heroic raiding for you.


Guilds don't fall into neat little buckets; that's why guilds who will only go 3/8 Heroic won't (or rather, shouldn't) clear Normal until a couple of months into content.

When the curve is actually a curve, a guild that can't make the 8/8 cut won't be breezing through Normal either. A guild that will only go a few bosses into Heroic will spend all but the last month or so in Normal mode. A guild that is destined to only clear Normal mode should be just finishing up Normal mode when the tier ends.

Yes, that means that for a guild that is at the level where they can't cut it in Heroic, the content tuning should be such that they spend at least 4 months before they finish Normal mode. Since 1 new boss a week is a relatively decent goal to keep at, that means at least 13 bosses or so within a tier, and content churning out fast enough that it's 5 months or less before a new tier is out.

When they do what they try to do with Normal mode content so easy that guilds who really aren't good enough for Heroics have breezed through Normal in less than a month, damn skippy they're out of content. Progressive nerfs that destroy the content isn't the answer, they attempt to push people into content they aren't at the level of handling to make up for the fact that those people weren't given content at their level, while destroying the Heroic element of fights in ways that completely break them, such as being able to stand in Ice Walls and live through them.

Having more than 8 bosses, tuning the curve properly so the first bunch of bosses aren't gimmes and their only hope of having content actually last doesn't involve brick walling with bosses that are killed on Progression 1 minute past the Berserk, and actually taking effort during the tier to fine-tune bosses properly and keep the curve element going as the instance goes through ,e.g. have Madness actually be harder than Spine, and don't have Hagara be a joke following Yor'sahj (which they've certainly not done nearly as well in tiers with built-in nerfs), however, are the answer.

I can actually solo the Ball on Zon'ozz as a Cat through to get it to 7 stacks (on 10-man). That's .... hilariously bad.
Edited by Slashlove on 9/24/2012 4:51 AM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
10265
To answer the OP's question directly, I was helped by the nerfs.

We wiped on normal Blackhorn for 5 weeks until the 5% nerf came. We were able to down normal DW right before the next nerf. We spent the next few months farming it before workign on heroics, which we would have never attempted beyond Morchok were it not for the increasing nerfs. In other words, it gave us many more months of being able to play DS whereas we surley would have stopped playing until MoP.
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
18230
We wiped on normal Blackhorn for 5 weeks until the 5% nerf came. We were able to down normal DW right before the next nerf. We spent the next few months farming it before workign on heroics, which we would have never attempted beyond Morchok were it not for the increasing nerfs. In other words, it gave us many more months of being able to play DS whereas we surley would have stopped playing until MoP.


This doesn't show that you were helped, it simply pushed you into content you weren't prepared for.

The definition of "helped" isn't killing more bosses, of Blizzard would just make dozens of Ultraxions and nerf them so that everyone kills all the bosses everytime.

when Vaults comes out, and it's not nerfed 35%, the people who needed nerfs to normal DS will be the ones out of practice and expecting to clear heroics by the 3rd week.

This happened in Tier 11, the shock of guilds who were 11/12h with 30%, that couldn't kill normal Lich King 0% were upset they couldn't clear normal Tier 11 without putting in effort.
Edited by Postonforums on 9/24/2012 6:27 AM PDT
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
18230
09/23/2012 09:29 PMPosted by Trusin
And that was with outside help. This last week they wiped 7 times on normal ultraxion.


Ya... no amount of % nerf will help people who can't push a button.
Unless it makes it killable in under a minute
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90 Human Warrior
17130
Nerfs aren't for people to see content but to avoid them getting burned out on raiding. Might not please everyone, and not everyone understands this, but there is a huge variety of skill levels in the raiders world. Everyone of them might like to raid, but not everyone likes to stop progression because a certain boss is impossible for them to kill at a certain tuning.

Getting more gear could help.. but so would getting an optimal spec/reforging/etc, which not everyone is ready to invest their precious time in researching the best combination. And of course, certain people just lack the understanding of a fight/skills, slowing their raid group overall.

I love hard challenges, but can understand the whole concept of making end game content less frustrating for a majority of the players. And lets be honest, except maybe for elusive drops/mounts, why would a top 100 guild keep clearing a raid a few months after its out, and why would it care if a lesser skilled guild can clear it a certain point down the road.
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
18230
09/24/2012 07:53 AMPosted by Exer
but not everyone likes to stop progression because a certain boss is impossible for them to kill at a certain tuning.


There has only been a handful of bosses impossible to kill

Players naturally improved, it is like any game or sport, being faced with challenge is basic human nature to overcome and grow from. Removing those challenges and offering NO CHANCE TO FAIL (as long as you wait) is making everyone, good, bad, indifferent WORSE at this game, and while overall player skill isn't truely measurable, it's something that will keep dragging the game down as it's perpetuated.

Then there's also that 6 months of 0 content argument, in which you've seen millions of people leave for games that didn't lay off 1/3rd of their staff and hijack the top Devs for a new project (Titan took all the strong minded raid devs)

09/24/2012 07:53 AMPosted by Exer
I love hard challenges, but can understand the whole concept of making end game content less frustrating for a majority of the players. And lets be honest, except maybe for elusive drops/mounts, why would a top 100 guild keep clearing a raid a few months after its out, and why would it care if a lesser skilled guild can clear it a certain point down the road.


The top guilds were racing DS 0%, it was sort of the only thing left to do.

The reason people should care about the nerfs actively? Because it's artificially limiting an already limited tier

8 bosses, set to last over 9 months, with 35% hard nerfs coded (Hand on Dial, that just happened to be perfectly timed, with a 1 week "throw off" because people caught on to the cycle, so they didnt want players to know they completely abandoned DS when Yorsahj H25 was nerfed). There's just no way that content would last, even for the "seriously" casual crowd that called Magmaw hard after 30% ICC.

The nerfs from ICC pretty much set the pace for Cataclysm, as miles of QQ (Omg I do less dmg at 85 than 80 people) made Blizzard cave in and cater to the Bro of Duty crowd.

It's been predicted a dozen times, when it happens, people will say "lol you made that up", much like the "We want to see the content" was spammed on this forum by every single purple loving 'casual' (13 hours a day casual), then "WELL ITS NOT ABOUT CONTENT ITS LOOT" the second they got LFR, which snowballed into Heroic being accessible. I don't know, I don't think accessibility is the way to make games, the higher difficulties are usually a little more limited in good games, as factoring things like keyboard turning and frostbolting as arcane as "normal gameplay" into the highest difficulty paradigm has simply hurt this game in every aspect.

People killing more bosses and getting more loot is not a barometer for how well the game is doing.

People don't get "frustrated and quit" When they can't kill a boss, that's such a bad myth as the game's end game retention was the highest when the last boss was killed less than 1/20th as much as it's killed now. Having bosses that kick your !@# are the reason people keep coming back.

Without the percentage nerfs, the only encounter I could see being a huge "roadblock" would of been Spine, but that received an old fashion soft nerf, before the blankets, indicating they didn't want it to be as difficult as it is, those styles of nerfs have always worked better, but I suspect testing and feedback are harder than TO THE GROUND! style nerfs.
Edited by Postonforums on 9/24/2012 8:08 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Priest
0
09/24/2012 03:53 AMPosted by Kiarà
I'm the sort of player that does not care about self-improvement on World of Warcraft. I want to be able to mindlessly smash some keys for a couple of hours each week but I don't want to be stuck on the same boss week in week out. Progressive nerfs keep me progressing but doesn't force me to go fine tune my play in order to progress.


It still bothers me a little that people think they're progressing. Progressing implies some type of progress. If all they did was lower the bar for you,it's not really progression, is it?

Then like Asane said, they come to unnerf magmaw, and once the fact that they're still bad i shoved in their face, they get upset.
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90 Human Warrior
17130
09/24/2012 07:58 AMPosted by Postonforums
People don't get "frustrated and quit" When they can't kill a boss, that's such a bad myth as the game's end game retention was the highest when the last boss was killed less than 1/20th as much as it's killed now. Having bosses that kick your !@# are the reason people keep coming back.


That is way too generalized. If you agree people expect to clear current content heroics independently of their skill, they won't stick around for a while if they dont see progressions between each attempts. I realize that is the whole point of this thread.

However, just as there are people interested in killing a boss thats been an issue for them for months, there are people that will slowly lose interest in raiding if after a few weeks, nothing happens. And because Blizz cares about people enjoying their content, that is why things are made more accessible to that crowd.

PS: I was here during the TBC era, cleared SSC/TK before they lifted the attunements. While it was an awesome feeling to finally be attuned for T6, wiping on 2 bosses for MONTHS was not fun.

PS2: There are so much more variables involved than the 35% nerf when you say less skilled guilds are upset they cannot clear a new instance a few weeks after a new expansion. They might go in there undergeared because they are misinformed on the gear level required to step in a new instance.. But at the same time, I agree 35% nerf in the last raid of an expansion might be overkilling it. Just sets the bar at the wrong position with the upcoming new content.
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I'd rather be 3/8h with no nerfs than 8/8 because of the nerf. It has absolutely nothing to do with seeing content, since everyone can see the content through LFR.

And don't give me the "you can always turn off the nerf" argument. No, you can't. There's absolutely no reason to turn it off, and purposely handicapping yourself just for a challenge when everyone else has access to easier content is stupid and artificial difficulty.


i'm not the only one seeing the disconnect here right

"i raid because it's hard"
"lmfao i can't make it hard because other people aren't doing it on hard mode"

you are inherently admitting you don't raid because it's hard, but for competition in that case.

at which point i have to ask- why do you care how other people play the game if it doesn't effect you in any way? you're also clearly so far behind the competitive curve if you're only gonna be 3/8H with no nerfs after 9 months i'm not sure why you care about competition at all
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
18230
09/24/2012 10:14 AMPosted by Hoxton
why do you care how other people play the game if it doesn't effect you in any way?


The same reason Im not raiding level 60 content, Everything in an MMO that anyone does or doesn't do AFFECTS everyone around them..

The Developers just affect people slightly more.

There is competition in PVE, even if it's not strictly killing bosses, recruitment, retention and other things are all affected by the buffs, as I stated, I have not seen ANY "No nerf" guilds, the top guilds that beat the nerfs because they can raid on Christmas beat the clock, and may shut off the nerf, but the nerf is turned off for griefing purposes more than it's disabled in practicality. There are guilds doing 0% well after farming the kill, I'd be interested to see actual statistics on how many people actually turn it off though. Human Nature is set to use every advantage when trying to "progress", especially when the advantage is passive, and you have to completely disable it. It's just not practical and goes against human instinct.

The Difference psychologically, of having to turn the buff on would be a more interesting dilema, as people would still turn it on obviously, but I bet the number drastically changes.

Anyways, you can still take your pants and rings off to raid, THERES STILL CHALLENGE is not a valid argument, the fact a blue poster used it for justification doesn't make it true.

Have fun wiping to normal Guardians though, I'll use the argument, you can just not raid, just like you argue we can turn off buffs. You'll threaten to quit, cry, and they'll put out a 40% stacking nerf for tier 15, you'll cancel your account for 6 months then resub at 35% and brag about killing normal mode.
Edited by Postonforums on 9/24/2012 10:36 AM PDT
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