Wrath of the Lich King Inconsistencies?

100 Undead Death Knight
Req
14950
Could someone clear something up for me? This has been bothering me since Wrath was around. So as we all know it was said that Arthas's good side was all that was keeping the Scourge from overwhelming the rest of the world, now that might not be such a big deal but when you think of it it is. First in Rise of the Lich King, it said at the end of the novel that Arthas killed his good side and then killed Ner'zhul. After that somehow his good side still survived so he forced his heart into the pit beneath Icecrown Citadel and there it remained up until some adventurer found it and Tirion destroyed it. Now by this point in time even Tirion confirmed that there was no more Arthas only the Lich King, so with that in mind why does Uther say in the Halls of Reflection that Arthas's good side still survived? And then to make matters worse, after you defeat Arthas at the Frozen Throne he loses his helm and just talks as if nothing happened at all. How does that even work? I mean didn't Tirion just say that there was only the Lich King? How could Arthas just take off his helm and just act like nothing happened at all throughout the course of the expansion?
Reply Quote
90 Human Warlock
12365
I'm going to take most of that as metaphorical good rather than literal good. Or that you can never permenantly get rid of your good side.
Reply Quote
100 Undead Death Knight
Req
14950
09/23/2012 05:15 PMPosted by Arlifrex
I'm going to take most of that as metaphorical good rather than literal good. Or that you can never permenantly get rid of your good side.
... He destroyed his good side in his mind and then cast his remaining good side into his heart and essentially destroyed it. Imo the people who did the cutscene or the dungeons just never read the book or did the questline. Likewise the quest writers just never read the book.
Reply Quote
100 Undead Death Knight
Req
14950
Also to add onto the supposed inconsistency, Arthas was even wielding a soul stealing weapon, and that even during Warcraft 3 Tichondrius told Arthas that Frostmourne stole his soul so that was the reason for why he couldn't feel regret, sorrow, or remorse for killing his father or the people in his kingdom. And now you're trying to tell me that Blizzard has just retconned all of those events that took place just so that he could have his good side which would be taken away anyways?
Reply Quote
100 Dwarf Warrior
18175
Simple: Uther was wrong.
Reply Quote
100 Undead Death Knight
Req
14950
09/23/2012 05:31 PMPosted by Vegdrasil
Simple: Uther was wrong.
So then after Arthas lost his helm why did he talk to his father as if nothing had happened then? Wasn't he still a remnant of his former self and still the Lich King, not Arthas as so many others had said?
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Priest
17460
I wouldn't say that he cast out his 'good' side, but his 'humane' side. What kept him from overwhelming the world wasn't the last remnants of him being good, but his hubris having decided that he didn't just have to take over the world. He had to do it by showing that no matter how hard someone tries, they can't beat him, and they will end up being on his side.

As for when he loses the helm, that's because Frostmourne has also relinquished his soul back to him. THAT'S Arthas' good side.
Reply Quote
91 Tauren Death Knight
12965
Considering that he said "Is it over?", I don't think that he pretended like nothing ever happened.

As for the good side preventing him from unleashing the Scourge, I actually don't believe that. I believe both Ner'zhul and Arthas held the Scourge back because they had a grand plan. Ner'zhul's grand plan was to merge with Arthas. This failed when Arthas, ultimately, destroyed Ner'zhul during his hibernation. With Arthas, Matthias Lehner likely was a big reason he held back for so long. Once his heart was destroyed by Tirion, Arthas had free reign to execute his plan: leading the best heroes of the Alliance and the Horde to him so he could raise them as his new vanguard. This plan failed because Arthas underestimated Tirion, the Ashbringer, and the power of the Light.
Reply Quote
100 Undead Death Knight
Req
14950
09/23/2012 05:47 PMPosted by Resileaf
I wouldn't say that he cast out his 'good' side, but his 'humane' side. What kept him from overwhelming the world wasn't the last remnants of him being good, but his hubris having decided that he didn't just have to take over the world. He had to do it by showing that no matter how hard someone tries, they can't beat him, and they will end up being on his side.
So then why did Uther say that it was only his good side holding back the Scourge from destroying the rest of the world after Arthas's good side had been destroyed by Tirion?
Reply Quote
100 Undead Death Knight
Req
14950
09/23/2012 05:52 PMPosted by Abal
I believe both Ner'zhul and Arthas held the Scourge back because they had a grand plan. Ner'zhul's grand plan was to merge with Arthas. This failed when Arthas, ultimately, destroyed Ner'zhul during his hibernation.
But you're forgetting that Arthas didn't just damage his good side or Ner'zhul, he cast them off into oblivion, completely and utterly destroyed them. There is no way that they could have returned in any way after that. I'm even skeptical about how his good side even got into his head considering that it should of been in Frostmourne along with all his other souls as well.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Hunter
5675
At first it was Ner'zhul. Then, it was Arthas and Ner'zhul as one being. Then, it was Arthas, Ner'zhul, and Matthias Lehner (for some reason not one being). Arthas removed Ner'zhul and Matthias Lehner (him via heart removal), making him a being that was only Arthas, but with "There's nothing left to redeem!" in Tirion's words. However, it is later shown that an undefined "Arthas" is a separate yet dwindling presence within the mind of "The Lich King".

Now, why didn't Arthas or the Lich King unleash the Scourge if he could have ended Azeroth at any time? It could not have been anything that was removed with Matthias Lehner.

Ask CDev says "To save people from generating elaborate conspiracy theories, we'll be serious for a moment and say, definitively, no. The ghosts of Uther and Terenas understood that the Scourge would run rampant without someone to keep them in check. Yes, that does also mean that Arthas and Ner'zhul were not unleashing the full force of the Scourge during their respective reigns: you are welcome to speculate on the reasons for that."

So, Uther and Terenas were not lying or wrong, and Yogg-Saron is not behind things, or what have you. What we have is what we were shown. No hidden context.

But still, why?

The theory that I subscribe to is not goodness, but pride. He wants to do what he said from the first WotLK trailer: corrupt people. Why? To show that what happened to him was not his problem or failing, but the dark way of things. He could not just kill people off (which he could have done at any time), he had to make a show of bringing the players down his path.

Then "The Lich King" dies and Arthas is possibly good again. Or something.
Edited by Pumlaxer on 9/23/2012 6:05 PM PDT
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Priest
17460
09/23/2012 05:52 PMPosted by Vynathlon
I wouldn't say that he cast out his 'good' side, but his 'humane' side. What kept him from overwhelming the world wasn't the last remnants of him being good, but his hubris having decided that he didn't just have to take over the world. He had to do it by showing that no matter how hard someone tries, they can't beat him, and they will end up being on his side.
So then why did Uther say that it was only his good side holding back the Scourge from destroying the rest of the world after Arthas's good side had been destroyed by Tirion?


He said that he SUSPECTS. He doesn't know, he only suspects. Keep in mind that for all we know, its just Arthas pretending to ensure the heroes go where he wants. Uther's soul can be seen at his memorial long before Wrath.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Hunter
5675
Ask CDev said it was really Uther.
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Priest
17460
So Uther has two souls? Oh, or Arthas is just so nice he had to let him go back to his burial place for those quests?
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Hunter
5675
09/23/2012 06:17 PMPosted by Resileaf
So Uther has two souls? Oh, or Arthas is just so nice he had to let him go back to his burial place for those quests?


Inconsistencies! Yes, both were him. Maybe one was him and one was an "echo" or "imprint" or something.
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Priest
17460
09/23/2012 06:28 PMPosted by Pumlaxer
So Uther has two souls? Oh, or Arthas is just so nice he had to let him go back to his burial place for those quests?


Inconsistencies! Yes, both were him. Maybe one was him and one was an "echo" or "imprint" or something.


And it would have been so much more devious if Arthas was just pretending all along... Pretending he could have destroyed Azeroth the whole time when he wanted, only to make it look like an urgency so that the chosen heroes would come to him.
Reply Quote
100 Human Paladin
19395
09/23/2012 05:06 PMPosted by Vynathlon
First in Rise of the Lich King, it said at the end of the novel that Arthas killed his good side and then killed Ner'zhul. After that somehow his good side still survived so he forced his heart into the pit beneath Icecrown Citadel and there it remained up until some adventurer found it and Tirion destroyed it.


The boy in Arthas's dream represented the last vestiges of his humanity. Killing him was symbolism for giving Frostmourne the final piece of his soul.

The ghost that appeared to people who touched Arthas's heart wasn't his "good side". It was nothing more than a "shadow of the past" that shared old memories.

"The heart... the last remaining vestige of your humanity. I had to stop it from being destroyed. I had to see for myself. And at last I'm sure... Only shadows from the past remain. There's nothing left to redeem!"

09/23/2012 05:06 PMPosted by Vynathlon
Now by this point in time even Tirion confirmed that there was no more Arthas only the Lich King, so with that in mind why does Uther say in the Halls of Reflection that Arthas's good side still survived?


Uther doesn't say anything about Arthas's "good side".

"I suspect that the piece of Arthas that might be left inside the Lich King is all that holds the Scourge from annihilating Azeroth."

Uther wasn't sure about this theory (he says "I suspect" and "might be"), and "piece of Arthas" can be interpreted in many ways. If you take it to mean "Arthas's goodness" or "Arthas's humanity", then Uther was wrong. If you interpret the piece in question as something like "Arthas's pride", he was technically correct.

The Lich King held back the Scourge because he wanted to challenge and corrupt Azeroth's greatest champions first. He wanted to see them follow in his footsteps. It was an aspect of Arthas's personality that made him act that way - his desire to see those heroes fall and prove they were no better than he was - but the point remains that the Lich King's reasons for holding back were not altruistic or noble in any way.

09/23/2012 05:06 PMPosted by Vynathlon
And then to make matters worse, after you defeat Arthas at the Frozen Throne he loses his helm and just talks as if nothing happened at all. How does that even work? I mean didn't Tirion just say that there was only the Lich King? How could Arthas just take off his helm and just act like nothing happened at all throughout the course of the expansion?


Arthas doesn't act like nothing happened. He asks "Is it over?" like a man waking up from a long nightmare. This is because all the souls taken by Frostmourne were released when it was shattered.

Arthas regained his own soul just before he died, finally allowing him to feel remorse and horror for all the terrible things he did after taking up Frostmourne.
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Priest
17460
Well, Egrem explained far better than I could have what I had in mind. The thread is his to close.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Hunter
5675
Listen to Egrem.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
5780
09/23/2012 06:28 PMPosted by Pumlaxer
So Uther has two souls? Oh, or Arthas is just so nice he had to let him go back to his burial place for those quests?


Inconsistencies! Yes, both were him. Maybe one was him and one was an "echo" or "imprint" or something.


Or, the CDev answer was lying. You know,
"To save people from generating elaborate conspiracy theories,"
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]