Please make LFR available to all difficulties

85 Night Elf Druid
3045
09/25/2012 09:59 AMPosted by Ninjablaze
I mean, most of them are arguing that a LFR group WILL fail, but none of us can really be sure about that.


Our 40+ weeks of experience is telling us it would fail. Your less than 1 full clears worth of experience is telling you it won't. Think about it.

my experience is different from yours, as you said i didn't clear DS, but not cuz I'm a noob, it's cuz I spent loads of time trying to find the groups.

That's my only point!

Finding the group, that's it.

Everyone can't not agree with this: "LFR helps you make and manage a group faster than you could without a raiding guild."
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90 Troll Warlock
11210
Everyone can't not agree with this: "LFR helps you make and manage a group faster than you could without a raiding guild."


Yes, but the argument is whether it can make groups coordinated enough to reliably have a chance at downing normal or heroic fights. If it cannot, it's not worth the dev time, plain and simple.
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90 Human Rogue
10910
my experience is different from yours, as you said i didn't clear DS, but not cuz I'm a noob, it's cuz I spent loads of time trying to find the groups.


If you had more experience you wouldn't have nearly as much trouble finding groups. You play on a decent server. Join a guild. If you can't find one that matches up with your times start your own.

09/25/2012 11:17 AMPosted by Robinho
Everyone can't not agree with this: "LFR helps you make and manage a group faster than you could without a raiding guild."


It makes it easier to make a group but it is much more difficult to manage as you do not have any control over the group. To make up for that complete inability to manage the group the raid is made faceroll easy.
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90 Pandaren Hunter
14925
09/25/2012 10:49 AMPosted by Arianity
You can. There's an entire branch of mathematics called statistics that's based on this.


Mathematics is a carefully crafted branch of science. Statistics is black magic, wrapped in Ito calculus, topped with Monte Carlo sprinkles.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
Somehow I knew this thread wasn't coming from a player who healed. I checked, confirmed.

Level, gear up, then do tier 14 raids in LFR as Resto. Then come back here and tell me you think random people can do normal mode.
Edited by Firestyle on 9/25/2012 11:30 AM PDT
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90 Dwarf Death Knight
17655
09/25/2012 11:17 AMPosted by Robinho
Finding the group, that's it.


Finding a group to raid with isn't challenging, there's literally thousands of guilds looking for people willing to learn.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
09/25/2012 11:27 AMPosted by Ninjablaze
my experience is different from yours, as you said i didn't clear DS, but not cuz I'm a noob, it's cuz I spent loads of time trying to find the groups.


If you had more experience you wouldn't have nearly as much trouble finding groups. You play on a decent server. Join a guild. If you can't find one that matches up with your times start your own.


I think you'll find groups much, much faster if you play your class as resto and/or resto/boomkin.
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90 Orc Shaman
13750
my experience is different from yours, as you said i didn't clear DS, but not cuz I'm a noob, it's cuz I spent loads of time trying to find the groups.


Join a raiding guild.

09/25/2012 11:17 AMPosted by Robinho
Everyone can't not agree with this: "LFR helps you make and manage a group faster than you could without a raiding guild."


Make the group, yes. Manage the group, no.
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85 Night Elf Druid
3045
Somehow I knew this thread wasn't coming from a player who healed. I checked, confirmed.

Level, gear up, then do tier 14 raids in LFR as Resto. Then come back here and tell me you think random people can do normal mode.

actually i have a healing set at almost the same ilvl of my feral set.
I also saw people with lower ilvl than mine already having cleared DS, and I'm talkin about months ago before the start of the DS nerfing.
It's because they had a schedule to play and could easily find a group to get in
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85 Night Elf Druid
3045
09/25/2012 11:24 AMPosted by Daerius
Yes, but the argument is whether it can make groups coordinated enough to reliably have a chance at downing normal or heroic fights. If it cannot, it's not worth the dev time, plain and simple.


But LFR, as it is now excluding raid mechanics and items, it's just for finding a group and exclude the loot drama on rolls. And that is great!

I don't want that normal or heroic become easier, I just want to have the tool to be able to at least get a group going into the raid in 10-20 minutes instead of 1,5-2 hours
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85 Night Elf Druid
3045
09/25/2012 12:41 PMPosted by Hyjinx
Everyone can't not agree with this: "LFR helps you make and manage a group faster than you could without a raiding guild."


Make the group, yes. Manage the group, no.


Yeah, I think I didn't express myself well there.
By "manage" I meant like leaving, adding, removing people from the raid without too much trouble.
And with "trouble" I mean losing time trying to find a replacement.
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90 Human Rogue
10910
Yeah, I think I didn't express myself well there.
By "manage" I meant like leaving, adding, removing people from the raid without too much trouble.
And with "trouble" I mean losing time trying to find a replacement.


So by manage you really just meant to put the word "make" a second time?
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90 Dwarf Death Knight
17655
You should put as much effort into finding a group as you do making up bad ideas.
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90 Goblin Mage
9270
09/24/2012 08:21 AMPosted by Robinho
Players who don't have a constantly raiding guild, will be able to experience the progression


I am sorry but after seeing Looking For Raid in action during Dragon Soul, there is no way that a Looking For Raid group could down anything on Heroic or even Normal Mode its just not possible. Progression needs to be kept within Guilds/Raid Groups.
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90 Troll Warlock
11210
The problem, as I see it, is that you seem to be under this misguided belief that simply adding normal and heroic modes to the LFR system will solve the problem. That the net result will operate precisely like a normal raiding pug does, except fill-ins will come an order of magnitude quicker, and there won't be any loot drama.

The factor that you're forgetting is that LFR is an inherently leaderless model. You can't run a normal easily, and you certainly can't run a heroic, without a leader and an authority structure. I'd also challenge that it would be near impossible even for a properly lead pug to reliably handle any of the heroic fights without some form of voice comms.

When pugs are being generating in trade chat, part of what takes so long is that the leader is either setting some minimum requirements within the advert, is armorying those that whisper him to ensure their suitability, or both. If you just allow anyone that has the minimum ilevel Blizzard says is sufficient to queue and run, with the abysmal travesty that is the current vote-kick system, you're going to end up with raids that would, if DS were still current, sit at Morchok for attempt after attempt, with half a dozen or more leaving after each, several minutes for fill-ins, wipe, repeat. LFRs don't possess the loyalty, dedication, or coordination of even a standard pug'd raid, much less a guild raid (and there's a reason why it usually takes a month or more for successful normal-mode pugs to begin operating, and you almost never see heroic pugs).

Basically, unless the content were nerfed to accommodate this change, the additions would be largely useless, wasted dev time. If the content were nerfed, you'd be essentially destroying the hardcore raiding scene just because you can't muster the effort to find a guild that works for you.
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90 Tauren Druid
19270
09/25/2012 09:11 AMPosted by Robinho
I don't think blizzard used these words to describe the reasoning of the nerfs, but anyway i was doing heroics when there was only 359 gear available, and the 5 man heroic runs were failing more because ppl were undergeared not cuz they didn't know what to do.


Given that people still can't work out how to do corla correctly (aka have 3 people in beams, step out at 80 stacks then back in when the debuff falls off you and interrupt her fear) what makes you think random pugs will work out heroic mechanics like Zzonzz?

Also take for example heroic ultraxion. The minimum dps you needed to down him was roughly 40k on 25 man heroic.... when I've done LFR ... I barely see people manage 20k. That is being generous btw... most people can't get above 10k .. which was Ilevel 333 dps.
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85 Night Elf Druid
3045
09/26/2012 12:33 AMPosted by Waraila
Given that people still can't work out how to do corla correctly (aka have 3 people in beams, step out at 80 stacks then back in when the debuff falls off you and interrupt her fear) what makes you think random pugs will work out heroic mechanics like Zzonzz?

I can count on my hands the times I've done heroic runs without using the LFD tools to at least get 3 more people.
And also, about that specific fight (corla), I got the achievment Arrested Development on a PUG group.
And also almost all other cata dungeon achievments that I have (they are not a lot) were made using a LFD group.

09/26/2012 12:33 AMPosted by Waraila
Also take for example heroic ultraxion. The minimum dps you needed to down him was roughly 40k on 25 man heroic.... when I've done LFR ... I barely see people manage 20k. That is being generous btw... most people can't get above 10k .. which was Ilevel 333 dps.

That's why it's heroic, it's hard, you have the DPS checks and mechanics checks.
If some1 in a raid doesn't pass these checks, they can be removed, or you can leave, as happens in a normal raid.

I'm always talking about leaving and replacements, but, you have to agree with me, that those are the only possible solutions for a any group that wants to keep going in that exact moment.
Surely a normal raiding guild that cannot pass a determined DPS check will just go and try to find better gear for the guildies and try again on another day, but IF they want to progress in that EXACT MOMENT and the only thing that went wrong is a DPS check the only things to do are(I'm not specifying an order, just listing the possible solutions):
  • try swapping roles: maybe some1 has a healing/tanking set and a DPS set and they can try to swap with another hybrid class
  • replace the lowest DPS with a higher one
  • make the tanks change a little bit of reforges/gems/talents to get that little improve on DPS that may cause the raid meet the DPS check.

So LFR replacement strategy is equal to the strategy that a guild/group will use if they want to progress in that EXACT MOMENT after a wipe were the current group composition can't satisfy a DPS check or Tanking check or Healing check or a combination of those.

That's why LFR is and will not be a bad choice for people who don't have a full guild group, and looking at the "replacement" strategy it doesn't differ that much from any other group that wants to progress right away.
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85 Night Elf Druid
3045

The factor that you're forgetting is that LFR is an inherently leaderless model. You can't run a normal easily, and you certainly can't run a heroic, without a leader and an authority structure. I'd also challenge that it would be near impossible even for a properly lead pug to reliably handle any of the heroic fights without some form of voice comms.

Eventually in any group a leader will be elected in the explicit or in the implicit way.
There can maybe be also 2 or 3 leaders in the same group, depending how well prepared are the ppl inside the given group.

09/25/2012 03:26 PMPosted by Daerius
When pugs are being generating in trade chat, part of what takes so long is that the leader is either setting some minimum requirements within the advert, is armorying those that whisper him to ensure their suitability, or both. If you just allow anyone that has the minimum ilevel Blizzard says is sufficient to queue and run, with the abysmal travesty that is the current vote-kick system, you're going to end up with raids that would, if DS were still current, sit at Morchok for attempt after attempt, with half a dozen or more leaving after each, several minutes for fill-ins, wipe, repeat.

Actually morchok normal was really easy and I read about morchok heroic and saw people saying that it wasn't that tricky.
So the most of the LFR normal/heroic groups would down at least morchok, and eventually the ppl who are not doing enough DPS/heals/good tanking would be replaced, or would simply leave or the others who are doing well could leave also.
If something is not working in a given group of anything, something must be done and in the LFR case what you can do is try to pass the DPS/tanking/Heals and mechanics checks or leave/kick.
09/25/2012 03:26 PMPosted by Daerius
LFRs don't possess the loyalty, dedication, or coordination of even a standard pug'd raid, much less a guild raid (and there's a reason why it usually takes a month or more for successful normal-mode pugs to begin operating, and you almost never see heroic pugs).

I actually saw some heroic pugs but you are right almost never.
But about loyalty and dedication: I think that LFR does a great job here since it removes the loot drama, and dedication is when you will try when you can to run the raid and get it done, maybe the first day you try you can down the first boss and two days after that you can continue from the second and keep going till the reset, the dedication is relative since every1 will put in the dedication they CAN and WANT to.
Usually in a guild, dedication means that you show up in the scheduled raid times (and also other things), but LFR has a different type of dedication since you don't raid every time with the same persons, you could possibly get to see 24 or 9 different players every time you join a queue, but this also doesn't mean that you didn't put in your dedication to play the game.

09/25/2012 03:26 PMPosted by Daerius
Basically, unless the content were nerfed to accommodate this change, the additions would be largely useless, wasted dev time. If the content were nerfed, you'd be essentially destroying the hardcore raiding scene just because you can't muster the effort to find a guild that works for you.

LFR normal/heroic will not make blizz nerf more or less than they already do. Because as I see it, LFR nomal/heroic would be just a tool to get the group going and not a tool to reduce the game difficulty.
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85 Night Elf Druid
3045
09/25/2012 03:20 PMPosted by Brèézyod
Players who don't have a constantly raiding guild, will be able to experience the progression


I am sorry but after seeing Looking For Raid in action during Dragon Soul, there is no way that a Looking For Raid group could down anything on Heroic or even Normal Mode its just not possible. Progression needs to be kept within Guilds/Raid Groups.

LFR will be good for Guilds too.
Maybe your guild has not the whole 25 or 10 group complete and you want to fill in quick those spots for the night raid.
Maybe you are just starting a new guild because you wanted to create a guild that fitted to your schedule but sometimes it could be hard to find ppl that fit your schedule and so you could use LFR to serach for ppl in the cross-realm way.
Many persons in this thread suggested me to create my own guild, but it wouldn't solve the problem since it would be hard anyway to find some1 that could fit a schedule that doesn't exists.

I know that an LFR group could be fail, but also any normal or heroic group could possibly fail, when you enter a new raid or a raid that you know few about it you are never sure if you will succeed or not right away, the groups just have to try, and I personally would take the risk to fail since the groups I could get going pugging had the chance to fail or succeed, and the ones that succeeded ran out of time because ppl (me too) had IRL stuff to do but that was because it took like 1,5-2h to get the full group.
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