Blizzards Blind eye to Linux Users.

MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Human Mage
10015
We've seen a good example of this experiment with CCP and EVE Online. A few years back, they released versions of their client for Linux and for Mac. A year later, they cancelled the Linux version and kept developing the Mac version.

Why? Because the Mac client brought in new customers, while the Linux version simply resulted in existing Windows customers switching clients; it didn't bring in any new business.


Eve onine's linux client was also based on that terrible cedega game emulator and it rarely worked.

CCP tried to cheat by not makiing a native linux client and it obviously failed.


It was essentially the same wrapper they used for the Mac port. Good as native? Of course not. Good enough to bring in extra customers? Yes for the Mac port, because we're not generally willing to jump through the hoops required to dual boot. No for the Linux port, because jumping through hoops is a way of life for them; they were already playing the game that way.

Doesn't matter how good the port was — they put in the investment they were willing to put in, they got a good return out of it on the Mac client, they didn't on the Linux client.

Until Linux users are willing to stop buying non-native games rather than simply dual-booting or running in WINE — and do so in numbers as significant as Mac users — there simply isn't any economic incentive to make Linux games.
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90 Blood Elf Hunter
8145


Eve onine's linux client was also based on that terrible cedega game emulator and it rarely worked.

CCP tried to cheat by not makiing a native linux client and it obviously failed.


It was essentially the same wrapper they used for the Mac port. Good as native? Of course not. Good enough to bring in extra customers? Yes for the Mac port, because we're not generally willing to jump through the hoops required to dual boot. No for the Linux port, because jumping through hoops is a way of life for them; they were already playing the game that way.

Doesn't matter how good the port was — they put in the investment they were willing to put in, they got a good return out of it on the Mac client, they didn't on the Linux client.

Until Linux users are willing to stop buying non-native games rather than simply dual-booting or running in WINE — and do so in numbers as significant as Mac users — there simply isn't any economic incentive to make Linux games.


seriously just stop it was NOT A NATIVE PORT. mac users dont even use the mac client they use the same wine setup that linux users use. quit trying to justify it.
Edited by Mercymizery on 9/25/2012 2:41 PM PDT
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19 Human Paladin
8815
09/24/2012 08:18 AMPosted by Karagra
^ That is true and Blizzard needs to understand Linux is not how it use to be with games. Native Linux games now work Flawlessly with amazing FPS due to the years of work on Nvidia/AMD drivers yeah there are bugs here and there but your telling me the same thing doesn't happen in Windows?


Gonna paraphrase what was stated in Vanilla Beta:

"We're not supporting Linux because it's impossible to make it work for every single person's build and compilation etc etc etc"

Basically, because you can customize the kernel, write and tweak your own drivers and every little nuance with Linux/Unix, they're not going to support it because it's too big of a headache on THEM to get it to work properly and provide support.
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90 Blood Elf Hunter
8145
^ That is true and Blizzard needs to understand Linux is not how it use to be with games. Native Linux games now work Flawlessly with amazing FPS due to the years of work on Nvidia/AMD drivers yeah there are bugs here and there but your telling me the same thing doesn't happen in Windows?


Gonna paraphrase what was stated in Vanilla Beta:

"We're not supporting Linux because it's impossible to make it work for every single person's build and compilation etc etc etc"

Basically, because you can customize the kernel, write and tweak your own drivers and every little nuance with Linux/Unix, they're not going to support it because it's too big of a headache on THEM to get it to work properly and provide support.


Humble bundle does linux ports of games. its offered in 3 different installers for nix. there games work fine reguardless of what distro its installed on. It doesnt matter which tweaks there using and 2005 linux is far different then 2012 linux.

just so u know over 50 percent of the linux user base uses Ubuntu.
Edited by Mercymizery on 9/25/2012 2:49 PM PDT
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85 Troll Mage
4660
I do like the Idea of a Linux Specific Version but as usual with the Linux Community that there are so many Distros of Linux out there that there is no guaranteeing the Game would be stable because of the constant bickering/consistency issues between distros. Now Granted the Mac version being a variant of unix and linux bsd partial based maybe or may not be simple to port to Linux its the fact that all the distros can't keep certain core requirements up to date or on a level playing field.

While other apps non game related have done a great job (like Cpanel for instance) supporting multiple distros of Linux the QA and testing would be insane and require allot of time and resources to test all the distros out there or Blizzard would have to pick their favorite distro and only support that one in order to make it cost affective. I do run Web Servers preferably Linux Red Hat or Centos server wise and for Desktop Linux Mint and Commodore OS Beta 9 for Desktop use. Now granted many have said you can duel boot the system to play WOW or use wine the same could be said for Mac Users as well with Boot Camp, parallels or VMware 5 and really save blizzard some money on developing for multiple OS's and just pick Windows only keeping in mind all PC’s are using the basic same hardware including Macs (just 3 times higher priced) which is why dual boot and virtual software are easily achieved these days.

That does seem to be the direction that many developers have gone due to economic reasons where Linux and Mac versions have been cancelled or put on hold for upcoming titles in favor of Windows which of course still outnumbers everyone else on the desktop and laptops to date. Not everyone will agree with this and Fans of Mac and Linux will feel threatened by this of course but economic facts will dictate the direction all developers will go with is Windows First, Mac Second (due to not many games for Mac means less competition with higher possible profit margin), then Linux third.

Until there is a true consensus in the Developer community on which Linux Distro is best for the Desktop and is the most kept up to date and ease of use to attract new customers not just Linux fanboys and Fangirls then Major titles may see their way to the Linux Gaming scene. Essentially we need to start seeing new desktop computers and laptops come standard with a consistently chosen Linux Distro and hit around the 5% Margin as Macs already have achieved sitting around the 7% margin. Granted I do see a pretty good effort coming from Commodore USA with the Commodore Vision Beta 9 OS (based on Linux Mint) and so far so good with some really cool desktop 3d interfacing going on that even makes Mac and Windows 8 look very childish. This would bring a more consistent hardware specs to the table to develop an OS without having to support so many millions of hardware configurations to date which we know windows has got everyone beat on that point.

This effort would kind of put them in the same class as Apple Mac in respect to minimal hardware configurations needed but also put them in a better position than Mac as long as the OS Distro supports the various driver updates to the hardware. But they will suffer the Same as Mac’s in the arena of cutting edge where both fall short. Serious gamers at current will always choose Windows First due to cost, customization, cutting edge hardware first to windows. The key to a good Linux Distro will be fixing the consistency issues on keeping things up to date and bringing some real desktop tools to a standard of upkeep. Now if Apple were capable of releasing and supporting the Mac OS as a full Distro to all platforms that could become a game changer but will still suffer the same as Linux with a lack of various choices of software and hardware to run on their systems. Granted I have seen some really Good Hackintosh Machines running even faster than a Real Mac at a fraction of the cost. So the Mac OS is capable…. Only time will tell.

Keep in mind I am a fan of all computers and OS’s but have some I like the Most and some the least I have a unique perspective as having programmed, Qa and developed Music, animations, Games, video editing and more on so many of them. I started with Atari then Apple II thru IIGS - Mac Se then moved from Apple after 12 years due to its move to a more closed nature and lack of software support thru the years with the move to Mac. (Mac still has that basic problem today just not as bad due to moving to the Intel platform giving a little for flex on their higher end systems $4500 on up). I then went with Commodore for awhile with C64/128/ then Amiga 500, CD32 with SX32 expansion to Amiga 1200. Then finally Win 3.1 thru Win7 soon to be 8 with always custom builds never name brand (I.E. Dell, Compaq, HP, Packard Bell bleh).

There were many Games developed for these systems with many ports to each other. (Mac being left out of the equation for most of them) then even more ports to game consoles as well. Keeping in mind that most of these systems had consistency on support and had some open standards that most of them agreed with (minus the Mac of course) which is where Linux needs to be in order to succeed not only on the Desktop but also as a real Gaming platform allowing everyone to make of course a profit which is the reason why there is no Linux version to date yet from Blizzard. But until then Linux Gaming in general will be even more limited than the Mac until the Linux Dev community OS and Gaming get their act together and work together but then again that’s like getting liberal progressives and conservatives to work together or come to agreements. As for servers in General I prefer Linux period for being the most stable and least expensive being the best of both worlds in that category. But enough rambling on my part…

Going play some Eve Online now… Can’t stand the new talent tree, must have been a Mac Developer or Fanboy that made that decision. The old tree was too difficult to understand so we must make it like a Mac with way fewer choices and dumb it down for the intellectually challenged. A little Mac humor :).
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90 Blood Elf Hunter
8145
people still miss the point when you dev for linux you dont have to dev for every distro. all the distros use the same libraries you only need to build your applicaton for x libraries . the system is smart enough to know how to use them. you think all the indy games dev for every distro no they build there titles off x library . linux does the rest with it.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
8155
09/25/2012 01:53 PMPosted by Ronduwil
Look at the grief Blizzard already endures in trying to support a limited set of graphics cards for Windows.


I'm sorry, but under the windows platform, NO game should have those problems IF they stick to the DX or OpenGL API's, and NOT write their own backends.
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19 Human Paladin
8815
09/25/2012 02:46 PMPosted by Mercymizery
just so u know over 50 percent of the linux user base uses Ubuntu.


Hey, I just repeat what I was told.

The openGL version was supported in beta until about a zillion folks kvetched and complained that they weren't optimizing it for their specific distro, their specific build, their tweaked drivers didn't work, etc etc etc.

people still miss the point when you dev for linux you dont have to dev for every distro. all the distros use the same libraries you only need to build your applicaton for x libraries . the system is smart enough to know how to use them. you think all the indy games dev for every distro no they build there titles off x library . linux does the rest with it.


And you guys are missing the point where they've stated its NOT WORTH THEIR TIME.

Another thing they'd mentioned was that there aren't enough players running under the OS to consider it. If you want to take this up with them, tech support forums are that way.
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90 Night Elf Druid
7255
It isn't a matter of Linux being "for advanced users only" or only for some particular sect of the nerd culture. You're perfectly right that it isn't that way anymore (well, at least for Ubuntu and Fedora, the other ones are still pretty inaccessible to the average person, in my opinion).

The real problem is this: World of Warcraft was built in the early to 2000s. It had already been decided that WoW would work on both Mac and Windows, and it was easy for that to be a requirement of the game because every game before had also been a hybrid game.

After WoW is first released, it becomes a mature piece of software, with hundreds of thousands of lines of code and thousands upon thousands of content pieces for sound, music, and art.

Now, skip today, after 4 expansions, the code base for WoW-- which is built to exploit features on Mac and Windows-- is now far greater in size, and so too are the aforementioned content assets.

One of the worst jobs in software development is legacy maintenance: keeping software going after it has been released. The only job that's worse that legacy maintenance is redeveloping the software for a completely different platform.

The amount of effort needed to get WoW to work on Linux would be terrifying for even the crustiest and most experienced of software developers. That effort in the context of a business becomes a cost of time, labor, and money. Businesses then have to decide if the effort is worth it.

Sure, many people use Linux but how many play games regularly?

How many would pay for more than just a month?

What would be the cost of having another operating system to support for the game.

A few of several questions that have to be answered with convincing evidence beyond a "trust me" from a few people.
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85 Dwarf Shaman
11090
[quote]u all still have yet to answer why do u care if linux users request a native client it still does not hurt you any. Just find it funny that ms users get so protective like omg its a game no one else but windows users should be able to play it...


We would rather Blizzard spend its time and money working on the game engine rather than produce a port that will not bring in more customers or revenue.

09/25/2012 02:26 PMPosted by Mercymizery
hate to tell you its been proven that linux uers generally will spend more money on games for linux then windows or mac users.


Would love to see your proof on that. Linux users are notorious for wanting to avoid paying for software. Many choose Linux for just that reason.

09/25/2012 03:43 PMPosted by Mercymizery
people still miss the point when you dev for linux you dont have to dev for every distro. all the distros use the same libraries you only need to build your applicaton for x libraries . the system is smart enough to know how to use them. you think all the indy games dev for every distro no they build there titles off x library . linux does the rest with it.


Having built packages for both RPM and DEB, it's not as straightforward as you claim. And just getting the packages to pass verification on the increasingly stringent package managers is a headache. Blizzard would not want this, and I don't blame them.
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90 Blood Elf Hunter
8145
09/25/2012 04:53 PMPosted by Keeghe
[quote]u all still have yet to answer why do u care if linux users request a native client it still does not hurt you any. Just find it funny that ms users get so protective like omg its a game no one else but windows users should be able to play it...


We would rather Blizzard spend its time and money working on the game engine rather than produce a port that will not bring in more customers or revenue.

09/25/2012 02:26 PMPosted by Mercymizery
hate to tell you its been proven that linux uers generally will spend more money on games for linux then windows or mac users.


Would love to see your proof on that. Linux users are notorious for wanting to avoid paying for software. Many choose Linux for just that reason.

09/25/2012 03:43 PMPosted by Mercymizery
people still miss the point when you dev for linux you dont have to dev for every distro. all the distros use the same libraries you only need to build your applicaton for x libraries . the system is smart enough to know how to use them. you think all the indy games dev for every distro no they build there titles off x library . linux does the rest with it.


Having built packages for both RPM and DEB, it's not as straightforward as you claim. And just getting the packages to pass verification on the increasingly stringent package managers is a headache. Blizzard would not want this, and I don't blame them.


oh really they dont like to pay for software ..
http://www.humblebundle.com/

$1,408,777.24Total payments:
237,164Purchases #:
$5.94Average purchase:
$5.29Average Windows:
$7.08Average Mac:
$10.03Average Linux:
inforeal-time updating by PubNub

go back to any humble indy bundle linux users on average pay higher then all other platforms.

as far as you would rather blizzard work on the existing game arch its still based off the old year 2004 code. with modifications for it to actually get any better they would seriously need to re write the entire code base.

you have worked with some really crappy package managers then because most package mangers we have delt with are very easy to use.

as far as application development goes it really is straightforward if your used to programming in linux environments and programming for open gl and open al platforms.

point still not made? why do u guys care if they want them to make a linux client THEY ARE STILL PAYING FOR THE SAME DAMN GAME.

hate to tell you your not going to win this argument so lets just agree to disagree here.

yes i support native linux client. hell ill even pay 5 dollers more a month on my yearly sub to prove it.
Edited by Mercymizery on 9/25/2012 5:06 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Hunter
8145
It isn't a matter of Linux being "for advanced users only" or only for some particular sect of the nerd culture. You're perfectly right that it isn't that way anymore (well, at least for Ubuntu and Fedora, the other ones are still pretty inaccessible to the average person, in my opinion).

The real problem is this: World of Warcraft was built in the early to 2000s. It had already been decided that WoW would work on both Mac and Windows, and it was easy for that to be a requirement of the game because every game before had also been a hybrid game.

After WoW is first released, it becomes a mature piece of software, with hundreds of thousands of lines of code and thousands upon thousands of content pieces for sound, music, and art.

Now, skip today, after 4 expansions, the code base for WoW-- which is built to exploit features on Mac and Windows-- is now far greater in size, and so too are the aforementioned content assets.

One of the worst jobs in software development is legacy maintenance: keeping software going after it has been released. The only job that's worse that legacy maintenance is redeveloping the software for a completely different platform.

The amount of effort needed to get WoW to work on Linux would be terrifying for even the crustiest and most experienced of software developers. That effort in the context of a business becomes a cost of time, labor, and money. Businesses then have to decide if the effort is worth it.

Sure, many people use Linux but how many play games regularly?

How many would pay for more than just a month?

What would be the cost of having another operating system to support for the game.

A few of several questions that have to be answered with convincing evidence beyond a "trust me" from a few people.


most users that play under linux have played the game for years anyways. we also some of us own most blizzard games. (i have all but my old diablo 1 cd as i lost the cd but still have the case.)

i have played wow sence vanilla. I play alot of games though wine ( granted i use linux natives when i can.)

will i still play the game without a linux client yes i would just like them to make one so would alot of people.

and adding linux support is not as hard as half the people here are making it out to be. sence it already supports mac os and windows most of the original code from both will work with linux. as the back end game code doesn't care which platform its actually ran on.
what would really need altered is the games binary executable file. the game already can be switched from direct x to open gl via flag and runs. threes the biggest hurtle right there is adding in the graphics and audio routines and input. the game recognizes pulse and alsa audio. really the only 2 things that need to be addressed would be to update it from open gl 2.0 and then write the base code so it would run natively without need for the wine wrapper.
Edited by Mercymizery on 9/25/2012 5:12 PM PDT
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Gnome Warrior
12535
09/25/2012 05:08 PMPosted by Mercymizery
will i still play the game without a linux client yes i would just like them to make one so would alot of people.


Essentially you're asking them to develop and support an additional game client with no increase in sales.

It's not a sound business decision.
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90 Blood Elf Hunter
8145
will i still play the game without a linux client yes i would just like them to make one so would alot of people.


Essentially you're asking them to develop and support an additional game client with no increase in sales.

It's not a sound business decision.


really enlighten us?

adding linux support would also not hurt sales it also might generate some new ones for people that wont play it because its not native.

love how these mvps chime in and really have no clue what there talking bout.

dear blizzard if you ever read this. give me 30 days with your source code to the client. ill submit you a client for you. ill even do it for free.

all i hear from the windows pr team is dont support them.
Edited by Mercymizery on 9/25/2012 5:21 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
7255
and adding linux support is not as hard as half the people here are making it out to be. sence it already supports mac os and windows most of the original code from both will work with linux. as the back end game code doesn't care which platform its actually ran on.
what would really need altered is the games binary executable file. the game already can be switched from direct x to open gl via flag and runs. threes the biggest hurtle right there is adding in the graphics and audio routines and input. the game recognizes pulse and alsa audio. really the only 2 things that need to be addressed would be to update it from open gl 2.0 and then write the base code so it would run natively without need for the wine wrapper.
How do you know a conversion would be "not as hard" as we think? I have had the privilege (or slave labor task, as I call it) of converting software between many different platforms.

It's not nearly as easy as switching out C headers and setting a few flags. Operating systems are complex creatures, and 90% of the problems a conversion can experience are a result of some obscure, deep-down feature in the kernel that is causing the problem. Finding, solving, and implementing fixes for game-breaking errors is no easy task.

On top of that, it's not a job for the script kiddy or recent college graduate. There's the massive step of quality assurance, which depending on the precision and standards of quality of the company, can be a long and costly endeavor.

I'm not saying Blizzard is somehow unable to do it. I am saying that the decision comes down to the risk and reward. That's usually what all decisions within a business come down to.

How much will it cost in time, labor, and money? Will it sell well enough to break even on monetary costs? Will it be profitable after it breaks even? If there's a long term maintenance plan, can we meet the expectations of our own plan?

And those aren't yes or no questions. They can't be.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
3375
09/25/2012 01:36 PMPosted by Ronduwil


Because Linux is a better OS. I'd rather use a good OS than a !@#$ty one, even if that means I have to jump through a couple small hoops. That being said, as long as wine is up to date, I don't have any issues, so I don't really see the problem.

Define "better." It's a free OS. If it really was better no one would buy computers with Windows installed on them any more. For a while Dell was offering computers pre-loaded with Linux. They don't do that any more because no one bought them. If by better you mean more customizable I agree with you. Customization doesn't mean anything to the average consumer. Most consumers want a system that supports most commercial applications and comes preloaded with MS Office. Linux is not that system. Windows is.


By better, i mean lighter, less of a reasource hog, and more user friendly. But that is just my opinion. I know some people are happy with Windows, I cant stand it one bit. Yes, it would be nice to have more support, but I've never had much of an isssue with running any program from wow to photoshop.
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90 Blood Elf Hunter
8145
and adding linux support is not as hard as half the people here are making it out to be. sence it already supports mac os and windows most of the original code from both will work with linux. as the back end game code doesn't care which platform its actually ran on.
what would really need altered is the games binary executable file. the game already can be switched from direct x to open gl via flag and runs. threes the biggest hurtle right there is adding in the graphics and audio routines and input. the game recognizes pulse and alsa audio. really the only 2 things that need to be addressed would be to update it from open gl 2.0 and then write the base code so it would run natively without need for the wine wrapper.
How do you know a conversion would be "not as hard" as we think? I have had the privilege (or slave labor task, as I call it) of converting software between many different platforms.

It's not nearly as easy as switching out C headers and setting a few flags. Operating systems are complex creatures, and 90% of the problems a conversion can experience are a result of some obscure, deep-down feature in the kernel that is causing the problem. Finding, solving, and implementing fixes for game-breaking errors is no easy task.

On top of that, it's not a job for the script kiddy or recent college graduate. There's the massive step of quality assurance, which depending on the precision and standards of quality of the company, can be a long and costly endeavor.

I'm not saying Blizzard is somehow unable to do it. I am saying that the decision comes down to the risk and reward. That's usually what all decisions within a business come down to.

How much will it cost in time, labor, and money? Will it sell well enough to break even on monetary costs? Will it be profitable after it breaks even? If there's a long term maintenance plan, can we meet the expectations of our own plan?

And those aren't yes or no questions. They can't be.


hell i even offered give me 30 days with there source ill even submit it to them so they can say yes or no to it. better yet give access to there already partly completed linux client. if they dont wanna finish it hell ill do it and they can do whatever they want with it ;P

the days of people wanting to pay 300 dollars for a os is over. windows 8 is a joke at best the Microsoft store is going to shaft so many devs out of the windows platform really 30 percent of there sales goes to ms. There trying to throw out the last few decades of computer programming out the window and say do it the windows way or gtfo.

windows 8 atm makes windows me look like a god send. and thats not saying much.
Edited by Mercymizery on 9/25/2012 5:35 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
7255
hell i even offered give me 30 days with there source ill even submit it to them so they can say yes or no to it. better yet give access to there already partly completed linux client. if they dont wanna finish it hell ill do it and they can do whatever they want with it ;P

the days of people wanting to pay 300 dollars for a os is over. windows 8 is a joke at best the Microsoft store is going to shaft so many devs out of the windows platform really 30 percent of there sales goes to ms. There trying to throw out the last few decades of computer programming out the window and say do it the windows way or gtfo.

windows 8 atm makes windows me look like a god send. and thats not saying much.
Windows doesn't cost $300. It's $120 for home premium. Regardless, why did you need to share you opinion about what OS is better? That wasn't the point of this thread.
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90 Human Priest
12410
Aside from the playerbase being too small and multiple solutions already existing, making a game work NATIVELY (not emulation) on Linux is an enormous pain in the !@#. Not every video card manufacturer releases drivers for Linux, and the Linux userbase is split up between different distributions (Ubuntu, Debian, Redhat, etc), different versions of those distributions, and wildly different end user setups. Should a Linux client be command-line only, with no launcher and no graphical interface outside of the game itself? If you want a launcher, should it be Gnome or KDE or something else?
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