you happy with rogue?

65 Pandaren Monk
5510

rogues mobility, even with shadow step is crap (or BoS even) compared to even a warrior.

Umm, everyone's mobility is crap compared to a warrior's.


which is a evolution in game design im sure. but like i said, a rogue (or rogue archetype) i always felt needed to be stealthy, mobile, and have sudden (burst) damage.

i mean look at assination, the one that would be the impidimy for burst damage imo, over like...70% of there damage is from autoattack. its shameful.

combat was always ployed as the swashbuckler, so i could at least get behind it being a dirty fighter sorta style.

sub tries (fails imo, but tries at least) to live up to the rogue archetype.

assassination should be renamed at this point imo.
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65 Pandaren Monk
5510
I'm quite content thus far. All 3 specs have been made viable for both PvE and PvP, the new talent build system allows you to create your own rotation class, in a sense, and allows for further personalization and customization.

I am absolutely LOVING the new changes to ShS, and I can't wait to utilize it to its max potential in arenas and RBGs. The fact that I can now port to allies is great, it will make peeling off my healers much easier and in arenas, I can just jump back to my healer, get out of enemy LoS, get healed, and possibly even restealth.

Overall, yes rogues were left a bit at the back of the bus while all the other classes got shiny new toys, but they're not unplayable. They've gotten a few key abilities that, when utilized properly, can really let us shine like we always have. Rogues have NEVER and, I don't believe, will ever be underpowered in PvP. At a disadvantage? Maybe, but it won't be anything a decent player can't work around.


hmm, not realy the point of my post (howe effective they are in pvp/pve) my comments are mostly gameplay oriented not competitive oriented. as much as you may like Shadowstep, its a weaker version of most gap closers with a longer Cd.
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65 Pandaren Monk
5510
I'm quite content thus far. All 3 specs have been made viable for both PvE and PvP, the new talent build system allows you to create your own rotation class, in a sense, and allows for further personalization and customization.

I am absolutely LOVING the new changes to ShS, and I can't wait to utilize it to its max potential in arenas and RBGs. The fact that I can now port to allies is great, it will make peeling off my healers much easier and in arenas, I can just jump back to my healer, get out of enemy LoS, get healed, and possibly even restealth.

Overall, yes rogues were left a bit at the back of the bus while all the other classes got shiny new toys, but they're not unplayable. They've gotten a few key abilities that, when utilized properly, can really let us shine like we always have. Rogues have NEVER and, I don't believe, will ever be underpowered in PvP. At a disadvantage? Maybe, but it won't be anything a decent player can't work around.


hmm, not realy the point of my post (howe effective they are in pvp/pve) my comments are mostly gameplay oriented not competitive oriented. as much as you may like Shadowstep, its a weaker version of most gap closers with a longer Cd.

09/27/2012 11:49 AMPosted by Sllade
I love my rogue the stealth is key and understanding the movement.


^^^^^^this is the thing that makes me the happiest about changes to rogues. In most of Cata, 4.3 especially, it felt like as a rogue I could go Rambo-style whenever I wanted; just break stealth, run around, and smokedance everywhere and burst people down ridiculously. Now, with MoP, you are forced to play rogues like they were meant to be played; stealthy. Even as combat, it is quite helpful to get some restealths in, which makes me very happy. Blizz has made it so right now rogues are a bit more vulnerable when out of stealth, and I like that! It means now we have to be quick and deadly in our attacks, as assassins should be ^.^


agreed they were too tanky in cata, but imo they made us less tanky while also taking away our controlled burst (or reducing it greatly) all while making mobility harder on us.
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85 Blood Elf Rogue
4165
MoP nerf -> unsatisfied.
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90 Pandaren Rogue
11125
I'm not really enjoying Assassination very much. I just feel like I'm doing no damage.

I'm trying Combat next, once I get a 2.60 axe/fist weapon.
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THIS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWdZEumNRmI

I have played rogue since TBC and honestly this is how i feel our pve dps is nice but pvp is lacking
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I didn't like overkill going away. No longer having overkill makes it pretty pointless to vanish/restealth in combat. It am happy however that I don't have to play combat spec to be competitive. Hitting the same three buttons all the time was really boring, and not really needing stealth [and having to use axes or maces instead of daggers] made me wonder why play a rogue instead of a frost dk or fury warrior?
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90 Undead Rogue
10810
The main problem I have with rogues right now is the all of the long CDs we have. I dont think I have a single CD under 2 minutes. So everything just feels really slow and lagging which is exactly the opposite of how they should feel. Also our lvl 90 talents are really lackluster compared to the other classes.

To solve this problem I think prep should be given to all specs with maybe a shorter CD for sub or something to that effect. The lvl 90 talents need to be redone to make them more exciting and cool to use. An Example would be combining versatility and anticipation into one talent and giving us another talent that is more exciting to use.

That being said I still enjoy playing my rogue and it will continue to be my main.
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64 Worgen Hunter
8455
09/27/2012 07:51 AMPosted by Kincayd
Rogues SHOULDN'T be a warrior in leather armor... thats why they made the changes to make them thief's/assassin's in leather armor.


And by being a thief you mean we die within 2 seconds of being focused and hit like a toddler would if he were fighting Mike Tyson?
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90 Gnome Rogue
10645
nope.
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85 Human Rogue
6375
No!
Rogues are 100% !@#$ and need some major buffs despite what other people say....when FIFTEEN HUNDRED bm hunter beat me just cuz the pet did EVERYTHING for him I KNEW rogues were %^-* and hence why I have quit mine.
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90 Undead Rogue
12710
The only thing that really drives me to play rogue still is that I like playing a melee character and I like the reduced global cooldown. The mechanics of the class would seem acceptable if damage was higher across the board. If rogues are to be warriors in leather, I would love to see some burst damage that isn't cooldown based and lackluster.
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I've been on the road and haven't had a chance to play yet (or even pick up the expansion ... still not sure I'm going to), but I dabbled in Beta and for the most part kept up with changes. My feelings are mixed.

I've grown to like the new talent system and there are a lot of great options there, but some kinda stink. I won't bother you with the details because I think we're all tired of hearing everyone's take on each talent. Instead, I'll go over some generalized changes I dis/like.

The healing changes were great. Let's admit it, Sub was overcompetitive having a PvP "rotation" consisting only of Recuperate. The Recuperate glyph and Leeching Poison let those of us who liked high healing keep it to some degree and those of us who hate "tankiness" abandon it for other options.

The Shiv mechanic is a lot of fun but has led to some unnecessary and significant nerfs. Utility poisons come at high cost. LP and PP require a talent choice AND (other) poison replacement, MN is useful only against casters, and Crippling has become the worst of the lot: Those without PvP gear can't get Deadly Brew, those with must choose between Shiv 70% and their PvP set bonus. Worse, Crippling baseline has been reduced to 50%, that's like dropping a Druid's speed by 20-40 points. Rogues don't close gaps well because they stay on target well after a gap has been closed, 70% Crippling is a large part of that and losing it hurts.

We've lost a LOT of re-stealth. Cloak/Vanish no longer have their talented CD reductions, Prep comes at the cost of gap-closing and leads to unmitigated kiting, Shadow Walk is great but baseline stealth was nerfed by 1 level (5 points), and Shroud is useless in Combat (great for starting Arenas, and that's about it). Did you know that Hunter Camo is essentially a 1m Cloak-less Vanish with 6s buff? That while Displacer Beast may be a Cloakless 30s Vanish, Resto can self-dispel for a 30s Cloak/Vanish? Why are Rogues, Rogues!!! sitting at 3 minutes?

I'm still confused over the loss of Cold Blood. It wasn't a super-powerful CD (if anything, it should have had a shorter CD), but it was a fun CD. The 25e was great for Mut's energy design and while a single crit isn't overly powerful (especially with all our passive damage), having it when YOU want it just feels good. I'd understand if Blizz also removed Adrenaline Rush and Premed and/or didn't add Shadow Blades, but they didn't/did. So why remove Cold Blood?

While they removed Cold Blood, they kept Vendetta, a boring +damage modifier. Likewise, they added Nerve Strike and replaced Deadly Brew with Prey on the Weak. Granted, all of those can be quite powerful, but I thought we were getting away from such things.
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I think the overall design has a lot of promise, but there are (quite) a few things I'd like to see changed. Many amount to buffs, and I'm sure there are people here who will call me a whiner, but I do believe them necessary. WARNING: I will get into a few talents this time, feel free to stop reading now.

- Deadly Brew needs to replace Prey on the Weak so all Rogues can access it, not just level 90 PvP Rogues. I know it's a rough choice with Dirty Tricks so tempting, but it should be available to everyone and no Rogue should have to choose between it and Shiv Crippling.

- Shiv Crippling is a horrid nerf for a Rogue. If we're going to have the Shiv effect for Crippling, at least split the difference and make it 60/80. That way you reward good use of Shiv without punishing (too much) those times it can't be used.

- MN was fine when you could run 2x utility poisons and still have Crippling or equivalant (Brew, Blade Twisting, or Waylay), but as great as it is vs. casters it's useless against everyone else. A new effect (reduced resource cap? reduced regen? increased ability cost? something else?) that works on all classes would make it a good option.

- PP is useless. It doesn't work on bosses, it stacks too slow for trash mobs, and though dispels have a CD now, they dispel EVERYTHING, destroying PP ramp-up. "It needs fixt."

- Mut's energy regen and damage are also STILL dependent on poisons. That's fine, until it falls off (only 8-15s) or is dispelled (probably "accidentally," when a healer is trying to dispel a root, snare, debuff, etc). Even if it is removed, Rupture requires a target, has a shorter duration than, and with VW provides less average energy regen than Energetic Recovery on SnD.

- Garrote too could use a change, to 2s ticks. That would make Mut opening with an opener useful in PvE, and Garrote a decent option v. non-mages in PvP (with Nerve Strike and glyph of Cheap Shot, who doesn't use CS now?).

- Deadly Throw's interrupt isn't practical. How often will you have a full 5cp to waste when a 2s cast comes up? Even with Anticipation, extremely rarely. I'd rather have interrupt without lockout on 1cp than both on 5cp.

- Some people have complained that Elusiveness is a DPS loss in PvE, other's have complained that it is too powerful, especially when glyphed, in PvP. Have you considered replacing the energy cost with a very short (10-15s) CD?

- BoS not breaking stealth would be a LOT more fun (even if it still cost energy when Shadow Focus was talented), and while Step to allies is AMAZING, with so many roots and so few dispells it simply can't reduce kiting (horrible for a melee class, especially with Vanishes cut in half). I'm still betting Rogues will be kited into infinity. Please have a root break, a work despite roots, and/or a reduced CD ready.

- Prep still doesn't belong, please get rid of it.
=> With Hunters having a 1m no-Cloak "Vanish," most Druids with a 30s no-Cloak "Vanish," and Resto with a 30s Dispel/"Vanish," I still support replacing Prep with a simple 30s Vanish CD (root/snare break, but no Cloak). Something would have to be done to prevent this from being a damage CD, especially in PvE, but it would allow Rogues to choose to be stealthy again, without Cloak "resets," and at the cost of gap closers (the root break and simply running in stealth would be the closer).

- Finally, Anticipation looks to be almost necessary for PvE and Shuriken Toss for PvP. If this proves to be true, it should be mitigated. While part of the stated design goal of the talent tree was to allow players to change talents depending on the situation, they are also supposed to be a choice.
=> It'd be nice to be able proc poisons on the move from "Throw" so that Anticipation (extra stored cp's) is competitive with Shuriken Toss (extra cp's at range) in PvP.
=> It would be great if Deadly Throw did respectable damage (glyphed to lose snare/interrupt?) and if FoK (and Tempest?) could still be glyphed for better range to help make Toss a good alternative to Anticipation in high movement/fire PvE.
=> It'd be wonderful if Versatility finally put combo points on the target, making it too a valued option.
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90 Undead Rogue
15175
The class would be so much more fun and viable if they just removed prep and gave us a 1min cd cloak/vanish and brought blind back to 2min (recoded to a spell instead of ranged attack to prevent dodging because of hunter changes).

Then they could just make step baseline like any other melee's gap closer. Hopefully, on a shorter cd like 16-20 seconds and maybe let it make you be able to step while snared, but not remove snares. Then the whole tier could be reworked into 2 ways to improve step vs burst of speed (removes step).

Not only would this help subs utility, but it would bring back more options into using vanish instead of things like removing overkill for assassination etc. If they had to nerf find weakness due to a shorter cd on vanish that would be fine because then that would make dance more skillfully used in terms of lockdown/control and having shadow blades on a longer cd for a primary offensive cooldown more akin to other classes.

Shiv's cd is a huge kick in the balls, but it's tolerable even though it doesn't make sense why they would change it to be dodge able/parryable. Not to mention that sanq vein is the same percent it was in cata now that it's been nerfed 3 times (i'd assume because of sub pve aoe with crimson tempest) so I see no reason for it to not be back on hemo bleed.

Still no clue, how recup hasn't been hotfixed in PvP instances yet either. They admitting it wasn't intended when they nerfed recup to 2% from 3% in arena/bgs while nerfing all healing done. Granted, that hotfix hit second wind as well a ways back, but obviously second wind is showing no signs of trouble.

As for the 90 tier, I wish there was some thought in it outside of shuriken toss being mandatory as a ranged slow provider in deadly throws place from previous expansions. Versatility is nice, but if you're using redirect kidney more than every minute you are doing something wrong and anticipation is pretty much just a PvE talent.

From what i've seen on beta as long as we play with fotm though things should get better once we scale up some more in gear and have the 90 pvp 4piece to open up more options with things like mindnumbing/wound or paralytic etc. Though the class is definitely a lot more stale and 1 dimensional than it's ever been, especially when having to play burst of speed vs teams with a lot of slows/snares like mage teams.
Edited by Nahj on 9/28/2012 7:20 PM PDT
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09/28/2012 07:13 PMPosted by Nahj
Then they could just make step baseline like any other melee's gap closer. Hopefully, on a shorter cd like 16-20 seconds and maybe let it make you be able to step while snared, but not remove snares. Then the whole tier could be reworked into 2 ways to improve step vs burst of speed (removes step).


I have only two criticisms for you here, and one for Blizzard.
(1) While I don't agree with Blizzard that Prep/Step is OP, I definitely think that Step/BoS would be.
(2) BoS is a great talent, and I'd hate to see it go the way of the Dodo. I'd much prefer the tier to be Prep-replacement (30s Vanish or 1m Cloak/Vanish) / Step through roots / BoS w/o breaking stealth.
(B) This tier removes so much tedium that I'd love to see it earlier to make leveling more enjoyable.

09/28/2012 07:13 PMPosted by Nahj
Not to mention that sanq vein is the same percent it was in cata now that it's been nerfed 3 times (i'd assume because of sub pve aoe with crimson tempest) so I see no reason for it to not be back on hemo bleed.


The poison requirement for Mutilate was removed as an unnecessary ramp-up mechanic, I don't know why bleeds remain a stronger one for Sub. I don't know why SV was nerfed, but I'm glad it was. As for Hemo, it's currently just a Sinister Strike with a tiny bleed, useful for stealthers but otherwise what's the point? At least Dispatch procs and Revealing Strike are somewhat interesting mechanically. This is however one of my lesser concerns.

09/28/2012 07:13 PMPosted by Nahj
Versatility is nice, but if you're using redirect kidney more than every minute you are doing something wrong and anticipation is pretty much just a PvE talent.


If Versatility placed combo points on the Rogue, it would probably be even better received than Swirly Ball's reintroduction (there are more players who would want that now than old-schoolers who remember Detect Traps).

09/28/2012 07:13 PMPosted by Nahj
Though the class is definitely a lot more stale and 1 dimensional than it's ever been, especially when having to play burst of speed vs teams with a lot of slows/snares like mage teams.


Certainly the loss of re-stealthing hurt ... so many of our abilities are stealth centric. Even so, there are a lot of new dimensions to Rogues too, some of them really cool.
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90 Human Rogue
9185
Seems like there's going to be a lot less opportunities to get out of combat in this expansion :/ But im still 85.
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