What the Hell, Emperor?

100 Tauren Druid
11055
09/27/2012 07:14 PMPosted by Heon
Because having no doubts is never admitting you could be wrong, or considering the conseequences of your actions.


This hasn't really stopped people before... not posters on this forum and not characters in-game.

09/27/2012 07:14 PMPosted by Heon
This is such a basic thing it's hard to explain.


I understand your opinion - there's no need to explain anything. I also provided a counter-perspective to indicate that this may not be as 'basic' as you're suggesting.

09/27/2012 07:14 PMPosted by Heon
Again, see Arthas, Illidan, even Grom


But I asked how the Emperor was to know about all of that stuff. Are we to expect the Emperor to have access to Wowpedia?
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09/27/2012 09:15 PMPosted by Bullcowsby
But I asked how the Emperor was to know about all of that stuff. Are we to expect the Emperor to have access to Wowpedia?


No, but I expected a character described as "wise" to understand that absolute certainty of one's own positions is the mark of what we would describe as a tyrant or a psychopath. I expected a character described as thoughtful to understand that to cast aside doubt is to become unchanging, unevolving.

09/27/2012 09:15 PMPosted by Bullcowsby
This hasn't really stopped people before... not posters on this forum and not characters in-game.


I'm sorry? What was that supposed to mean.
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100 Tauren Druid
11055
No, but I expected a character described as "wise" to understand that absolute certainty of one's own positions is the mark of what we would describe as a tyrant or a psychopath. I expected a character described as thoughtful to understand that to cast aside doubt is to become unchanging, unevolving.


Again, that's your opinion. Are you suggesting that your understanding of life is more complete and "wiser" than his? Would you say that you have absolutely no doubt about your position?

09/27/2012 09:36 PMPosted by Heon
I'm sorry? What was that supposed to mean.


That the presence of doubt doesn't prevent the two things you mentioned. Doubt or no doubt, there are people who will never admit they are wrong, etc.
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09/27/2012 09:46 PMPosted by Bullcowsby
Again, that's your opinion. Are you suggesting that your understanding of life is more complete and "wiser" than his? Would you say that you have absolutely no doubt about your position?


Yes, I am. No, I wouldn't. But we have empirical proof where "no doubt" leads one.

09/27/2012 09:46 PMPosted by Bullcowsby
That the presence of doubt doesn't prevent the two things you mentioned. Doubt or no doubt, there are people who will never admit they are wrong, etc.


The presence of doubt doesn't prevent the two things, no, but the absence of doubt force them. If I never second guess myself, why the hell would would I reflect and maybe see my wrongs?
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91 Night Elf Druid
9065
By seeing that the results of your plan were not what you expected.

It doesn't take doubt to see that.
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100 Tauren Druid
11055
09/27/2012 09:49 PMPosted by Heon
Yes, I am. No, I wouldn't. But we have empirical proof where "no doubt" leads one.


You haven't really addressed my issue then. I started by asking how the Emperor would have known about Arthas, Illidan, and Grom and your response was that it was just so basic that any ignoramus should know this... based on empirical proof we have that the Emperor didn't.

So in short - yes, you expect that he should have had access to Wowpedia. Without it, he wouldn't have the 'empirical proof' you use to conclude what he should have known.

And, again, we also have 'empirical proof' of where doubt leads, too.

09/27/2012 09:49 PMPosted by Heon
but the absence of doubt force them


I disagree. Regardless, I did present a counter-perspective that I have yet to see you respond to.
Edited by Bullcowsby on 9/27/2012 9:59 PM PDT
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09/27/2012 09:58 PMPosted by Bullcowsby
I started by asking how the Emperor would have known about Arthas, Illidan, and Grom


And I've answered that he doesn't need to know about Illidan, Arthas and Grom. Those are examples I used. What Shaohao should have known is that "no doubt" leads to a point where you don't stop to consider consequences. That's second guessing, that's doubt.

09/27/2012 09:58 PMPosted by Bullcowsby
your response was that it was just so basic that any ignoramus should know this


Because it is this basic. No doubt, no second guess, no thinking about the consequences, no hesitating. Think and do. It's arrogance, hubris even.

09/27/2012 09:58 PMPosted by Bullcowsby
based on empirical proof we have that the Emperor didn't.


Examples. Examples. Arthas and Illidan are examples. They're proof that "no doubt" leads you into a dark road in most of the cases, that we have access too. The Emperor didn't have to know about them in particular, just the overall narrative about hubris.

09/27/2012 09:58 PMPosted by Bullcowsby
I disagree. Regardless, I did present a counter-perspective that I have yet to see you respond to.


You never see anyone responding to you in a manner that's not an agreement, Bull. You don't need to tell me that.
Edited by Heon on 9/27/2012 10:22 PM PDT
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91 Night Elf Druid
9065
You never see anyone responding to you in a manner that's not an agreement, Bull. You don't need to tell me that.


Your a rude little one.
Edited by Ferlion on 9/27/2012 10:24 PM PDT
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09/27/2012 10:23 PMPosted by Ferlion
You never see anyone responding to you in a manner that's not an agreement, Bull. You don't need to tell me that.


Your a rude little one.


So I am. I find it better than false courtesy.
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91 Night Elf Druid
9065
09/27/2012 10:38 PMPosted by Heon


Your a rude little one.


So I am. I find it better than false courtesy.


Funny enough, both are inferior to actual courtesy, and generally much harder to pull off over the internet.
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100 Tauren Druid
11055
And I've answered that he doesn't need to know about Illidan, Arthas and Grom. Those are example I used. What Shaohao should have known is that "no doubt" leads to a point where you don't stop to consider consequences. That's second guessing, that's doubt.


And I'm asking you how he should have known this. You state it as if it's fact when it hardly is. What does not having doubt have to do with consequences? You can be absolutely certain of your position and make that choice based on the consequences.

09/27/2012 10:21 PMPosted by Heon
Because it is this basic.


Except it isn't.

No doubt, no second guess, no thinking about the consequences, no hesitating. Think and do.


Not quite. Is this how you see decision making? Do you honestly think "doubt" is the only thing prevent people from running around doing whatever they want, when they want to, making capricious decision after capricious decision without any thought about the consequences? I think your understanding of decision-making is better than this.

09/27/2012 10:21 PMPosted by Heon
They're proof that "no doubt" leads you into a dark road in most of the cases, that we have access too.


It can lead to bad things, as can the presence of doubt. Are we really just going to repost our opinions back and forth? Look, I get what you're saying and I agree that "no doubt" is harmful. I also believe that doubt is harmful. I'm not really sure exactly why you think such a complex issue is basic.

The Emperor didn't have to know about them in particular, just the overall narrative about hubris.


And the Emperor also probably understood the danger of letting doubt rule you, too. What does hubris have to do with it?

09/27/2012 10:21 PMPosted by Heon
You never see anyone responding to you in a manner that's not an agreement, Bull. You don't need to tell me that.


Funny, because I continue to respond to your idiotic, self-righteous tripe. Maybe I'm just a good guesser? Were you expecting a more trolled-worthy response? Sorry. Acting like the village troll should be left to the ones who've done it for years.

Was that a better response for you? I was nice about it initially - I didn't say you were ignoring me, merely that I had not seen a response about my counter-perspective regarding doubt. But there you go - you got your appropriate response to your piss and vinegar approach to arguing.
Edited by Bullcowsby on 9/27/2012 10:48 PM PDT
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100 Tauren Druid
11055
09/27/2012 10:40 PMPosted by Ferlion
Funny enough, both are inferior to actual courtesy, and generally much harder to pull off over the internet.


Having seen the other thread with pages of stuff about the Night Elves and given my other experiences with the new Hyolia/Alestra I'm not even sure I expect anything more.
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91 Night Elf Druid
9065
09/27/2012 10:50 PMPosted by Bullcowsby
Funny enough, both are inferior to actual courtesy, and generally much harder to pull off over the internet.


Having seen the other thread with pages of stuff about the Night Elves and given my other experiences with the new Hyolia/Alestra I'm not even sure I expect anything more.


Yeah, I'm beginning to see that.
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100 Blood Elf Warlock
11220
you still have a few constants to look forward to. Egrem(Egrim?) will always argue with you, Vyrin will always take the opposite stance you do, Ferlion is pretty constant in his views and posts.
Edited by Juibloc on 9/27/2012 11:01 PM PDT
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09/27/2012 10:47 PMPosted by Bullcowsby
Funny, because I continue to respond to your idiotic, self-righteous tripe. Maybe I'm just a good guesser?


Nah. You just love this, just as you love to portray yourself as the voice of reason. I can't say I don't understand the feeling, even tough I loathe it.
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100 Troll Shaman
5930
09/27/2012 11:10 PMPosted by Heon
Nah. You just love this, just as you love to portray yourself as the voice of reason. I can't say I don't understand the feeling, even tough I loathe it.

You loathe being the voice of reason?

I suppose that would explain your abandoning any pretense of the stuff.
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100 Blood Elf Warlock
11220
09/27/2012 11:10 PMPosted by Heon
Nah. You just love this, just as you love to portray yourself as the voice of reason. I can't say I don't understand the feeling, even tough I loathe it.


hey, Kellick is the voice of reason. Bull is the voice of factual statements and correct use of words.
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100 Tauren Druid
11055
09/27/2012 11:10 PMPosted by Heon
Nah. You just love this, just as you love to portray yourself as the voice of reason. I can't say I don't understand the feeling, even tough I loathe it.


Actually, I would much rather have actual discussions as I do with posters such as Egrem, Ferlion, and others -- even though they often end with an agreement to not see eye to eye.

This? Whatever you call this? This can go have a seat in his bedroom because the adults want to talk.

And thanks for the compliment. I do try and use reason and you'll even see me use the phrase "devil's advocate" in some posts!
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09/27/2012 11:22 PMPosted by Kellick
Nah. You just love this, just as you love to portray yourself as the voice of reason. I can't say I don't understand the feeling, even tough I loathe it.

You loathe being the voice of reason?

I suppose that would explain your abandoning any pretense of the stuff.


I loathe the need to present oneself as the voice of reason instead of actually being reasona...

Oh, it's Kellick again. Hey!
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100 Blood Elf Warlock
9075
HI everybody, I think I will take a stab at the OP and try to get this thing back on track.

I have read a lot of the post before and read quite a bit of the lore bits in the beta, (and the leaks) so let's see if I can tie it all together.

oh, and *spoilers*

So, the Emperor Shaohao removed his "evil" emotions to become a pure spirit and bind himself with the land to protect Pandaria from the impending explosion of the Well of Eternity. In doing so, he binds them in the land, himself along with them, as a pure force to create the mists that had protected Pandaria for thousands of years.

We also know that at the same time the land already (the Klaxxi) had a force bound within the land, Y'saarj, an Old God; who we believe to be one of the Old Gods to be fully dead by the Titans but still able to have an influence, all be it a (probably) subtle force.

Interpretation

I would hazard a guess that the original ritual (that's what I call it) was to make a balanced force of Pure Negative and Pure Positive to make the binding and the shielding spell work, but because the land already has a very powerful entity (all be it dead) the negative forces began to expand and grow over the many years. feeding on only the smallest of events that did occur on Pandaria (the Hozen V. Jinyu First Conflict for example), till they could manifest as the Sha we know to day.

It is never once said that the Sha never showed up, but that they have never shown up in this great of force or size before. in fact all but one of the Prime Sha have been released! (Prime are Fear, Doubt, Hatred, Anger, Violence, Despair and one I may have missed.)

This extra influence is something the Emperor never knew because the Mantids wanted them to be kept in the dark/ never talked to them.

I would easily say that Emperor Shaohao was almost as powerful as Azshara but neither were Omni-percipient (could see/know everything) so he would not know the downsides of what he did long-term because for him there was no long-term compared to TOTAL DESTRUCTION from the Well of Eternity blowing up.

He made a very bold choice to save the whole of Pandaria by sacrificing himself to keep it safe. he could have never have known that it could have been destroyed by his very actions. He was desperate, and had to make a very tough choice.
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